Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Verbier was taking the piss.

Yes, the power estimates were through the roof, bla bla, yet he finished only 40s ahead of his nearest challenger and a minute ahead of a group with freaking Bradley Wiggins in it.
How many times has Froome finished at least 1 minute ahead of his nearest challenger? NB: a teammate is not a challenger.
That is taking the piss.

This thread is about how dirty a cheat Alberto contador is, please don't bring the dawg into it, stop derailing the thread thank you very much

Froome big friends of Alberto. Up there with Vino

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Verbier was taking the piss.

Yes, the power estimates were through the roof, bla bla, yet he finished only 40s ahead of his nearest challenger and a minute ahead of a group with freaking Bradley Wiggins in it.
How many times has Froome finished at least 1 minute ahead of his nearest challenger? NB: a teammate is not a challenger.
That is taking the piss.

This thread is about how dirty a cheat Alberto contador is, please don't bring the dawg into it, stop derailing the thread thank you very much

Complaining about derailment of a thread 10 days after the fact, hereby further derailing the thread, chapeau :lol:

I was bored on the nightshift last night

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Verbier was taking the piss.

Yes, the power estimates were through the roof, bla bla, yet he finished only 40s ahead of his nearest challenger and a minute ahead of a group with freaking Bradley Wiggins in it.
How many times has Froome finished at least 1 minute ahead of his nearest challenger? NB: a teammate is not a challenger.
That is taking the piss.

This thread is about how dirty a cheat Alberto contador is, please don't bring the dawg into it, stop derailing the thread thank you very much

Froome big friends of Alberto. Up there with Vino

But I hear Froome dawg is friends with bob geldof so that sort of levels things out

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Verbier was taking the piss.

Yes, the power estimates were through the roof, bla bla, yet he finished only 40s ahead of his nearest challenger and a minute ahead of a group with freaking Bradley Wiggins in it.
How many times has Froome finished at least 1 minute ahead of his nearest challenger? NB: a teammate is not a challenger.
That is taking the piss.

This thread is about how dirty a cheat Alberto contador is, please don't bring the dawg into it, stop derailing the thread thank you very much

Froome big friends of Alberto. Up there with Vino

But he doesn't understand, not fully.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Verbier was taking the piss.

Yes, the power estimates were through the roof, bla bla, yet he finished only 40s ahead of his nearest challenger and a minute ahead of a group with freaking Bradley Wiggins in it.
How many times has Froome finished at least 1 minute ahead of his nearest challenger? NB: a teammate is not a challenger.
That is taking the piss.

This thread is about how dirty a cheat Alberto contador is, please don't bring the dawg into it, stop derailing the thread thank you very much

Froome big friends of Alberto. Up there with Vino

But he doesn't understand, not fully.

Yup, just like Bertie cant understand how he lost his 2 GTs. Not fully.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

I agree with Flo here. Some genuine piss-takes include Landis monster 120km solo ride, 2008 Saunier Duval sprinting up the mountains on CERA.

Alberto was never head and shoulders above everyone anyway except maybe in the 2011 Giro, when the field wasn't very strong anyway. Rujano was the second strongest rider and he'd already lost minutes. Never did he do anything super human effort. Fuente De was impressive in its own right, but it was also a team effort and using his friends in the peloton to stage an intelligent coup. It wasn't like Coppi going 200km solo to Pinerolo.

2009 TdF? I also thought it was interesting Alberto slowed in the 2010 Tour which correlated to the introduction of the blood passport.

I actually don't disagree with Flo either. My post was in response to the comment that we should just accept the doping and "enjoy" the entertainment. But doping does not correlate to entertainment as anyone who witnessed the Indurain era would know plus the blood passport hasn't eliminated doping but certainly had a massive slowing down effect on what was going on pre 1999.

There is nothing wrong with having an ideal even if it is unrealistic. But the closer you get to that ideal the better. We are certainly closer today than the 90s

Uh?

That was two years before, in 2008. Which (afaik) was the slowest year in cycling since epo. Since then the speeds have crept up, and we are nearing pre-passport speeds.

Okay I got my years wrong on the BPP maybe it took time to implement properly based upon comparing 2009 and 2010 Tours?

2011 Tour climbing looked pretty slow to me - Voekler?? And what happened in 2010 then that was obviously two steps down on 2009 levels ? I was waiting for Alberto and Schleck to explode on the Tourmalet, never happened, looked like slowmo.

In 2009 62Kg Alberto was beating 82Kg Cancellara in the Annecy TT all whilst fending off intra team battles with Armstrong - yep that was taking the piss.

Yes its speeding up again as you'd expect but despite skeletal climbers who can TT, we are still a long way short of the 90s when they were still riding 9.0kg steel bikes and less aero. Equipment and training science would account for some of the gap. But nobody is climbing anything like Pantani / Ullrich / Riis and 79Kg 6'3" Indurain riding the entire field bar Luc Lublanc off his wheel at Hautacam.

I am probably wrong, but I've always felt that there wasn't much difference between Contador from 2009 to 2010, and that the difference was mainly made up by the improvements of Andy. Contador was really only below par in that final ITT, and the strong winds might have negatively affected him a lot.

Also from my memory, Andy and Alberto did explode on the Tourmalet, with still about 10 kms to climb, and barely let up, finishing over a minute ahead of everyone else. That was slowmo?

This is still one of the best climbing displays that I can remember. Andy in particular was incredible.

 

[meat puppet]

tourmalet was 5,9ish w/kg for 49minutes: http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-from-the-tourmalet-6wkg-anyone/

 

[silvergrenade]

It's hard to compare road stages with tests so it would be best to look at MTTs. But he hasn't done too many MTTs of around 20 minutes, all uphill. Estimated 7 W/kg for 11.5 minutes on the prologue of 2016 Dauphiné, actual numbers probably higher as it included 350m flat/slight downhill at the end. Of course, it's hard to replicate the normally ideal circumstances of a test, not to mention that those tests are done just before the Tour at which point a rider's shape should be better than during the prep races.

Edit: 7.5 W/kg for 7 minutes on Malhao in 2016, 7.5 W/kg for 7 minutes on Gaintza in 2014. Both shorter efforts but at the end of a stage.

Bertie's performances over the years:

1 performance really stands out. He apparently did that in training. Apparently

Is it that strange that a performance at the end of a stage and in some cases halfway through a GT is worse than in a 20 minute test? Not sure why you want it to be fake so badly.
PS those are estimated numbers

https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1017119535332196352

If Contador put those kind of watts in actual racing, he would have won every Grand Tour with a 15 minutes + advantage. So yeah. #WhatHappensInTrainingStaysInTraining
11:52 AM - 11 Jul 2018

 

[LaFlorecita]

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

lol, I guess some people have never ridden a bike before. 7.4w/kg for 20 minutes? :lol:

I think someone needs their power meter calibrating.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

lol, I guess some people have never ridden a bike before. 7.4w/kg for 20 minutes? :lol:

I think someone needs their power meter calibrating.

Imagine people defending it. Lol.
Bertie defenders everywhere.
#Fake

 

[LaFlorecita]

The only ones who don't believe it are those with an agenda but they have no convincing arguments. "He fabricated the numbers!!1!11" Why, you ask? "He just did!!1" "His power meter is not calibrated!!!1!" Yes, it makes sense for a pro rider and one of the biggest at that to use an uncalibrated power meter for several years No use even arguing. Open your eyes and open your mind.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

lol, I guess some people have never ridden a bike before. 7.4w/kg for 20 minutes? :lol:

I think someone needs their power meter calibrating.

DFA my dude, I can't even imagine pushing 4 W/kg for 5 minutes. Does that mean it's not possible for a world class athlete to manage 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes? Froome and Porte have allegedly both managed 6.9-6.95 W/kg for 30 minutes on the Madone. 6.6-6.8 W/kg is widely accepted as FTP for the very best climbers. Yet for Contador it must be a case of fabrication or miscalibration.
When you look at the reactions on social media, many pros are impressed by the numbers, but none are sceptical. That says means more to me than what two known anonymous Contador detractors write online.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

lol, I guess some people have never ridden a bike before. 7.4w/kg for 20 minutes? :lol:

I think someone needs their power meter calibrating.

DFA my dude, I can't even imagine pushing 4 W/kg for 5 minutes. Does that mean it's not possible for a world class athlete to manage 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes? Froome and Porte have allegedly both managed 6.9-6.95 W/kg for 30 minutes on the Madone. 6.6-6.8 W/kg is widely accepted as FTP for the very best climbers. Yet for Contador it must be a case of fabrication or miscalibration.

Of course it's not possible. Even peak Pantani or Riis during the doping free-for-all era could get nowhere near that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

lol, I guess some people have never ridden a bike before. 7.4w/kg for 20 minutes? :lol:

I think someone needs their power meter calibrating.

DFA my dude, I can't even imagine pushing 4 W/kg for 5 minutes. Does that mean it's not possible for a world class athlete to manage 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes? Froome and Porte have allegedly both managed 6.9-6.95 W/kg for 30 minutes on the Madone. 6.6-6.8 W/kg is widely accepted as FTP for the very best climbers. Yet for Contador it must be a case of fabrication or miscalibration.

Of course it's not possible. Even peak Pantani or Riis during the doping free-for-all era could get nowhere near that.

Source?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Read the replies as well...
"Said that but it wasn't data referred to racing but to training. Racing you usually have extreme weather conditions, pains, etc. Which data you need to have before racing Le Tour (sic)."

"No way mate. It’s not the same a just 20’ test, that doing a 20’ effort in a f.e. 16th Tour’ stage and after 150km. Actually, it’s like another sport.."

lol, I guess some people have never ridden a bike before. 7.4w/kg for 20 minutes? :lol:

I think someone needs their power meter calibrating.

DFA my dude, I can't even imagine pushing 4 W/kg for 5 minutes. Does that mean it's not possible for a world class athlete to manage 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes? Froome and Porte have allegedly both managed 6.9-6.95 W/kg for 30 minutes on the Madone. 6.6-6.8 W/kg is widely accepted as FTP for the very best climbers. Yet for Contador it must be a case of fabrication or miscalibration.

Of course it's not possible. Even peak Pantani or Riis during the doping free-for-all era could get nowhere near that.

Source?

Here's something for starters regarding what is or isn't physiologically possible:

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Here's something for starters regarding what is or isn't physiologically possible:

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

"Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996. [...] This is Vayer and Portoleau’s estimation, and I believe it to be accurate"

6.8 W/kg for 35 minutes at the end of a stage. This is supposed to prove what exactly?
Still waiting for proof that Pantani and Riis couldn't push 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes in training.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Here's something for starters regarding what is or isn't physiologically possible:

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

"Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996. [...] This is Vayer and Portoleau’s estimation, and I believe it to be accurate"

6.8 W/kg for 35 minutes at the end of a stage. This is supposed to prove what exactly?
Still waiting for proof that Pantani and Riis couldn't push 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes in training.

You're waiting for proof of something that didn't happen? There's a bit of a logical fallacy in that.

Unless Contador has a Vo2 max of 100+, or an efficiency of close to 30% (which he doesn't) 7.3 - 7.4 w/kg for 20 minutes didn't happen. It's just not possible. Whereas a poorly calibrated power meter in 2009 (or whenever it was exactly that he did this test) is not only possible, it's probable - he says as much himself by admitting the numbers aren't verified.

I suggest you take your fanboy blinkers off for a minute and do a bit of research into the physiological requirements behind producing such a power for such a duration. And you will see for yourself.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Here's something for starters regarding what is or isn't physiologically possible:

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

"Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996. [...] This is Vayer and Portoleau’s estimation, and I believe it to be accurate"

6.8 W/kg for 35 minutes at the end of a stage. This is supposed to prove what exactly?
Still waiting for proof that Pantani and Riis couldn't push 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes in training.

You're waiting for proof of something that didn't happen? There's a bit of a logical fallacy in that.

As you claimed even Pantani and Riis couldn't manage those numbers I expected you to have some kind of proof for that. Clearly expected too much.

Unless Contador has a Vo2 max of 100+, or an efficiency of close to 30% (which he doesn't) 7.3 - 7.4 w/kg for 20 minutes didn't happen. It's just not possible. Whereas a poorly calibrated power meter in 2009 (or whenever it was exactly that he did this test) is not only possible, it's probable - he says as much himself by admitting the numbers aren't verified.

I suggest you take your fanboy blinkers off for a minute and do a bit of research into the physiological requirements behind producing such a power for such a duration. And you will see for yourself.

Please show your calculations for that. Sounds like you are seeing things that aren't there. Contador's FTP as used by his coaches in training and warmup was 420W - which was surely verified unless Tinkoff and Trek were the most unprofessional teams on earth. A FTP of 420W matches perfectly with his 20 minute test data.

It seems to me that there is no reason to believe the numbers are wrong besides the fact that they are exceptional - but he was an exceptional cyclist.
This data shows Contador was a much bigger and better cyclist than you ever gave him credit for but sure, throw around accusations of blind fanboyism instead of admitting, just for once, that you may have been to quick to judge.

I've asked Ross Tucker if he can weigh in on this.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Here's something for starters regarding what is or isn't physiologically possible:

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

"Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996. [...] This is Vayer and Portoleau’s estimation, and I believe it to be accurate"

6.8 W/kg for 35 minutes at the end of a stage. This is supposed to prove what exactly?
Still waiting for proof that Pantani and Riis couldn't push 7.3 W/kg for 20 minutes in training.

You're waiting for proof of something that didn't happen? There's a bit of a logical fallacy in that.

As you claimed even Pantani and Riis couldn't manage those numbers I expected you to have some kind of proof for that. Clearly expected too much.

Unless Contador has a Vo2 max of 100+, or an efficiency of close to 30% (which he doesn't) 7.3 - 7.4 w/kg for 20 minutes didn't happen. It's just not possible. Whereas a poorly calibrated power meter in 2009 (or whenever it was exactly that he did this test) is not only possible, it's probable - he says as much himself by admitting the numbers aren't verified.

I suggest you take your fanboy blinkers off for a minute and do a bit of research into the physiological requirements behind producing such a power for such a duration. And you will see for yourself.

Please show your calculations for that. Sounds like you are seeing things that aren't there. Contador's FTP as used by his coaches in training and warmup was 420W - which was surely verified unless Tinkoff and Trek were the most unprofessional teams on earth. A FTP of 420W matches perfectly with his 20 minute test data.

It seems to me that there is no reason to believe the numbers are wrong besides the fact that they are exceptional - but he was an exceptional cyclist.
This data shows Contador was a much bigger and better cyclist than you ever gave him credit for but sure, throw around accusations of blind fanboyism instead of admitting, just for once, that you may have been to quick to judge.

I've asked Ross Tucker if he can weigh in on this.

lol, Contador didn't have an FTP of 6.75 w/kg when he was at Trek. Absolutely nowhere near. Froome was destroying him in mountain stages with ~6w/kg.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

lol, Contador didn't have an FTP of 6.75 w/kg when he was at Trek. Absolutely nowhere near. Froome was destroying him in mountain stages with ~6w/kg.

Yes, it is a figure from 2015. So you're saying Tinkoff's support staff was so amateuristic they didn't verify the FTP number? What do you suggest was his FTP/would be possible for him in a 20 minute test?
Also, FTP derived from a test obviously cannot be translated to road stages sometimes halfway through a GT. It was obvious he struggled with longer stages and often blew himself trying to follow attacks which resulted in a sub-par performance.
And Froome pushed more than 6 W/kg when dropping Contador quite a few times.

 

[Merckx index]

I think Alex’s Looking Under the Hood blog is very useful, probably should be a sticky. It shows how watts/kg changes as the three parameters that affect it—V02 max, threshold utilization and efficiency change. For example, if you have a V02 max of 90 and a utilization of 90%, you would need an efficiency of about 25% to reach 7.0 W/kg. Very few athletes in history have had a V02 max as high as 90, and very few have had an efficiency as high as 25% (the Coyle paper that trumpeted LA's 7 Tour victories as resulting in large part from an increase in efficiency concluded that his was about 23%). There was one study of pro riders that found very high efficiencies, in the high 20s, but also some evidence that these correlated with relatively low V02 max values. In any case, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that power/weight ratios in this neighborhood can only occur if a rider has an outlier value of efficiency, along with an outlier value of V02 max.

https://wattmatters.blog/home/2013/08/looking-under-hood.html

 

[LaFlorecita]

I think Alex’s Looking Under the Hood blog is very useful, probably should be a sticky. It shows how watts/kg changes as the three parameters that affect it—V02 max, threshold utilization and efficiency change. For example, if you have a V02 max of 90 and a utilization of 90%, you would need an efficiency of about 25% to reach 7.0 W/kg. Very few athletes in history have had a V02 max as high as 90, and very few have had an efficiency as high as 25% (the Coyle paper that trumpeted LA's 7 Tour victories as resulting in large part from an increase in efficiency concluded that his was about 23%). There was one study of pro riders that found very high efficiencies, in the high 20s, but also some evidence that these correlated with relatively low V02 max values. In any case, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that power/weight ratios in this neighborhood can only occur if a rider has an outlier value of efficiency, along with an outlier value of V02 max.

https://wattmatters.blog/home/2013/08/looking-under-hood.html

Thanks! Interesting read