Without OP And Retirements, Who Wins The 2007 Tour De France?

[Walkman]

So Mauricio Soler is now better than Contador as well?

It was time from a breakaway whether you like it or not. He'd have never gapped Contador in a one on one duel(and not including his flat tire that cost him a lot of time.)

Did you watched the -07 Tour or are you just spraying fanboy comments around?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvjiaxO1uV8

07:25

 

[LaFlorecita]

Vinos positive was an conspiracy, they changed out his blood with someone elses

Of course they did. We should hang them!

 

[El Pistolero]

Did you watched the -07 Tour or are you just spraying fanboy comments around?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvjiaxO1uV8

07:25

Can you read? I'm clearly talking about the first stage Rasmusson won.

The vid you post is the only real time gain Rasmussen gained on Contador. A time gain of 35 seconds. Contador could take that back in the time trials.

Without the 3 minutes and 50 seconds Rasmussen got in the first stage he won, Contador would have never needed to attack him so much. Ergo he would be less tired and probably not even get dropped there(and even if he did, he'd still have won the Tour because he got more time on Rasmussen in the time trials than Rasmussen on Contador in the mountains).

 

[gustienordic]

I'm still going to say Basso; if he had not been in OP, he easily would have won. Ulrich vs. Basso in 06 would have been a great race, with Mancebo & Sevilla attacking all over the place, but I think Ulrich would have won in 06. Basso would have destroyed him in 07 however. Contador would most likely have been his number one domestique, and helped him cruise on the MTFs. Chicken would not have had any chance against Basso or Ulrich, especially with how strong their teams were.

 

[ElChingon]

Why was Merckx left out? He would of crushed them all! (you did say sans retirements)


Settled for Rass, he had Contador handled rather well and since Merckx was left out I didn't consider anyone that wasn't on the start list for the race.

 

[Walkman]

Can you read? I'm clearly talking about the first stage Rasmusson won.

Yes, thank you very much for asking but that the meaning of the words, and I quote:

He'd have never gapped Contador in a one on one duel

Does not even remotly indicate that you were refering to the stage Rasmussen won from a breakaway. You made a factual statement, saying Rasmussen did not drop Contador in a one on one duel, wich is totally false. Hence asking if I can read is kind of silly. Me asking you if you can construct correct sentences would be a more appropriate question.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes, thank you very much for asking but that the meaning of the words, and I quote:



Does not even remotly indicate that you were refering to the stage Rasmussen won from a breakaway. You made a factual statement, saying Rasmussen did not drop Contador in a one on one duel, wich is totally false. Hence asking if I can read is kind of silly. Me asking you if you can construct correct sentences would be a more appropriate question.

Read earlier posts in this thread. I already mentioned Rasmussen gapping Contador there. Hence I was perfectly aware of the vid you posted. May I suggest you actually learn to read? Thank you. I'll make this easy for you and quote the post I made earlier:

He only gained time on him in one mountain stage(35 seconds). All the rest was time he got in a breakaway.

He lost time to Contador in all time trials(more then 35 seconds and would've also lost time in the final time trial). I know people don't want to hear this, but Contador was better than Rasmussen in 2007.

======================================================================

I was saying Rasmussen would have never gapped Contador in a one on one duel at that stage, that early in the Tour on such a climb. There's a big difference between a climb in the first week of the Tour and a climb in the third week of the Tour. Contador was very much Rasmussen's equal up the point where Rasmussen won his second stage(and it was because Contador was very aggressive that Tour and made a lot of attacks).

The fact still remains that Rasmussen made the bulk of his time on that breakaway stage and without it Cadel Evans and Contador would have finished in front of him. Perhaps Leipheimer as well. Though that depends on how much time Rasmussen would have lost on the final time trial.

 

[Walkman]

Read earlier posts in this thread. I already mentioned Rasmussen gapping Contador there. Hence I was perfectly aware of the vid you posted. May I suggest you actually learn to read? Thank you.

Sure. Doesn't change the fact though. You did a factual statement without referring to the actual stage. But yes, I am probably guilty of not reading, the other posts leading to the one I quoted, closely enough.

I was saying Rasmussen would have never gapped Contador in a one on one duel at that stage..

No, you did not. Do I really have to quote you again? Sure!

It was time from a breakaway whether you like it or not. He'd have never gapped Contador in a one on one duel(and not including his flat tire that cost him a lot of time.)

 

[El Pistolero]

Sure. Doesn't change the fact though. You did a factual statement without referring to the actual stage. But yes, I am probably guilty of not reading, the other posts leading to the one I quoted, closely enough.



No, you did not. Do I really have to quote you again? Sure!

If you read the part between the brackets you can clearly see it's about the first stage Rasmussen won. Because Contador had a flat tire there. Post I was quoting was about that stage, so I felt no need to specify. Hope that clears it up for you as it's arguing besides the point anyway. Perhaps I should have specified to avoid confusion, but I didn't

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Of course they did. We should hang them!

if people can belive that LA is clean i can belive this

 

[kurtinsc]

I think it would have been Armstrong (assuming he never retired).

I think he'd have won 2006 pretty easily (using whatever program he used in prior years). I expect he would have started to level off a little through 2006 and 2007, but I think he'd have been closer to 2005 Lance then 2009 Lance.

If Contador was at Disco still in this scenario, there'd be no doubt. Both he and Levi would be controlling things for Lance, not working for themselves.

Even if Contador and Levi were on other teams, I think Lance would have still been top 3 in the ITT's, getting say 3-4 minutes on Rasmussen, 30 seconds or so on Leipheimer and Evans, and maybe 2 minutes on Contador. I think Basso, Valverde and the others would all be at leas a minute back.

While I think Rasmussen and Contador could outclimb him, I think at this point he'd still be at least as good as Levi and Cadel. I'm unsure how he'd compare with Basso, but I can't remember Basso every outdoing him on a climb in the Tour so it's tough for me to put Basso ahead. I think he'd be close enough to Contador and Rasmussen on the climbs that he'd win in the TT's.

 

[Altitude]

So Mauricio Soler is now better than Contador as well?

It was time from a breakaway whether you like it or not. He'd have never gapped Contador in a one on one duel(and not including his flat tire that cost him a lot of time.)

How can you say he would have never gapped him when - as Walkman points out - he did just that later in the race?

 

[El Pistolero]

How can you say he would have never gapped him when he did just that later in the race?

Because I'm talking about the breakaway stage(not in general, should have specified it). Unless you believe Rasmussen could take over 3 minutes on Contador there in a one on one duel.

Contador only got gapped in the third week because he was finally growing tired of his constant attacks. He was still fresh at the first stage Rasmussen won.

The facts remain facts:

Rasmussen only gained 35 seconds if we don't include time from a breakaway. Contador gained more time from the time trials than 35 seconds. Ergo without the breakaway Rasmussen would not have won the Tour.

 

[Walkman]

Because I'm talking about the breakaway stage(not in general, should have specified it). Unless you believe Rasmussen could take over 3 minutes on Contador there in a one on one duel.

Contador only got gapped in the third week because he was finally growing tired of his constant attacks. He was still fresh at the first stage Rasmussen won.

But it's not like Rasmussen didn't do any attacks. On the stage AC won (atleast I think it was that one) Rasmussen did repeatedly attack the heads of state in order to drop the likes of Evans and Levi, who could TT. Meanwhile AC was wheelsucking.

 

[Nick C.]

If there was no OP isn't Contador still at Liberty with Vino and Basso @ CSC?

 

[El Pistolero]

But it's not like Rasmussen didn't do any attacks. On the stage AC won (atleast I think it was that one) Rasmussen did repeatedly attack the heads of state in order to drop the likes of Evans and Levi, who could TT. Meanwhile AC was wheelsucking.

Contador attacked a lot in that Tour as did Rasmussen. I'm not denying Rasmussen was the best climber. But Contador was better in the time trials and seeing as Rasmussen only gained 35 seconds in the mountains and Contador gained more time in the time trials he would've still won without the breakaway.

 

[Walkman]

The facts remain facts:

Rasmussen only gained 35 seconds if we don't include time from a breakaway. Contador gained more time from the time trials than 35 seconds. Ergo without the breakaway Rasmussen would not have won the Tour.

It's not that simple. Why would Rasmussen go crazy when he had a 3.10 lead over AC? A smarter strategy would have been just to watch AC and try to save energy for the last TT. Wich is what he seemed to be doing. When he dropped AC and Levi he didn't even attack, he just rode them of his wheel. So there is nothing to say that Rasmussen couldn't gone faster, had he needed to.

 

[El Pistolero]

It's not that simple. Why would Rasmussen go crazy when he had a 3.10 lead over AC? A smarter strategy would have been just to watch AC and try to save energy for the last TT. Wich is what he seemed to be doing. When he dropped AC and Levi he didn't even attack, he just rode them of his wheel. So there is nothing to say that Rasmussen couldn't gone faster, had he needed to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSlYOWb81KY&feature=related

I doubt Rasmussen could go faster then that.

Besides, he still needed as much time as he could get on Evans before the time trials. He wasn't an idiot like Andy Schleck. I think his great time trials even surprised Rasmussen him self. Let's also not forget there was still one long time trial where Rasmussen could have lost a lot of time.

And it works the other way around as well. If Contador didn't have to make up a gap of 3 minutes and 50 seconds he wouldn't have to act so crazy and wouldn't be so tired that he would get dropped.

 

[Walkman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCxvckqzgtw

Sorry, not correct. Contador was not wheelsucking there.

You give me a link that's missing a couple of kilometers and say I am wrong, seriously?!

I am talking about the kilometer between they were in the peloton and they became a four man groupe. Wich, conveniently isn't on the link you provided. So that link doesn't tell us anything, related to what I was saying.

 

[Altitude]

Because I'm talking about the breakaway stage(not in general, should have specified it). Unless you believe Rasmussen could take over 3 minutes on Contador there in a one on one duel.

Contador only got gapped in the third week because he was finally growing tired of his constant attacks. He was still fresh at the first stage Rasmussen won.

You don't think Rasmussen was tired from responding to all of Contador's attacks? That takes just as much effort. Bottom line is he could have dropped Contador fresh or fatigued.

 

[El Pistolero]

You don't think Rasmussen was tired from responding to all of Contador's attacks? That takes just as much effort. Bottom line is he could have dropped Contador fresh or fatigued.

Then why didn't he drop him on Plateau de Beille or Peyresourde or any other mountain stage except the final one? And that was only a gap of 35 seconds, hardly big.

According to you Rasmussen wasn't tired of responding to all of Contador's attacks, because he could drop him you say. Besides, I don't see what this has to do with anything?

Rasmussen gained most of his time on a breakaway. It's a simple fact of life. I don't see why we should overlook a gift of more then 3 minutes. The race would have been totally different if it wasn't for that and I doubt Rasmussen would have won(his time trial would be less juiced as well then )

 

[scullster46]

Then why didn't he drop him on Plateau de Beille or Peyresourde or any other mountain stage except the final one? And that was only a gap of 35 seconds, hardly big.

That 35 second gap was made purely in the last kilometer. Also if Rasmussen didn't get those 3 minutes in one stage, he would have attacked more and probably taken more time on other mountain stages, although not 3 minutes worth. If he had attacked earlier on the aubisque, he takes a minute plus easy from Contador

 

[El Pistolero]

That 35 second gap was made purely in the last kilometer. Also if Rasmussen didn't get those 3 minutes in one stage, he would have attacked more and probably taken more time on other mountain stages, although not 3 minutes worth. If he had attacked earlier on the aubisque, he takes a minute plus easy from Contador

Says who? Contador actually got away from Rasmussen there.

Anyway doesn't matter, Rasmussen has 0 GTs and Contador 6.

 

[Altitude]

Then why didn't he drop him on Plateau de Beille or Peyresourde or any other mountain stage except the final one? And that was only a gap of 35 seconds, hardly big.

According to you Rasmussen wasn't tired of responding to all of Contador's attacks, because he could drop him you say. Besides, I don't see what this has to do with anything?

Rasmussen gained most of his time on a breakaway. It's a simple fact of life. I don't see why we should overlook a gift of more then 3 minutes. The race would have been totally different if it wasn't for that and I doubt Rasmussen would have won(his time trial would be less juiced as well then )

What? You said the only reason he dropped him was because Contador was tired from attacking so much. Well guess what? Rasmussen was probably just as tired from responding to his attacks. So they were both tired when Rasmussen dropped him. If he could drop Contador when they were both tired, I'd wager that he could do the same when they were both fresh. Get it?

You call his stage 8 win a gift. Surely you must think the same about Landis in 06, and Schleck this year?

 

[El Pistolero]

What? You said the only reason he dropped him was because Contador was tired from attacking so much. Well guess what? Rasmussen was probably just as tired from responding to his attacks. So they were both tired when Rasmussen dropped him. If he could drop Contador when they were both tired, I'd wager that he could do the same when they were both fresh. Get it?

You call his stage win a gift. Surely you must think the same about Landis in 06, and Schleck this year?

Landis= doped up performance

Tactical stupidity on behalf of the other teams to give him so much free time before organizing a real chase.

As for Andy, same thing, not a real chase behind him. And the peloton was already destroyed by then.

I think about Landis pretty much the same way as I think of Rasmussen. No Tour winners

Let's get this clear: Rasmussen was the better climber of the 2, but there was only a slight difference. Contador was the better tt specialist.