World Politics

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The US has no real threats and hasn't for a long time. The only threats most of us suffer under are the war mongers fighting invisible enemies, who occasionally find themselves in control of our congress, senate, and/or white house.

 

[ChrisE]

The primary function of government is to insure the citizens can sleep without worry that someone is going to come in and force them out of their home or rob their businesses (summed up as in a particular document as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness").
.....

Typical wingnut dogma.

Where does equal rights, abolishment of slavery, work laws, public works like roadways, ensuring healthy food, control of emissions, etc. come into play?

The government plays a role for the collective good in a democracy. And, last time I checked this was a democracy. If the majority of citizens elect officials that run on national health care then deal with it or work to change it. National healthcare is not the end of the world in other contries that has adopted it, and we even have medicare.

 

[Anonymous]

The primary function of government is to insure the citizens can sleep without worry that someone is going to come in and force them out of their home or rob their businesses (summed up as in a particular document as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness").

The current society seems to want adult day care that insures everyone has health insurance, which means everyone should also be assured a job to pay for the insurance - why stop there, I suppose everyone should also have a right to a home. In the end, what type of government promises that everyone will be cared for from cradle to grave by the government? The only governmental systems I know that has made these type of promises have been unsuccessful in providing the the liberty and pursuit of happiness concepts that are the foundations of our nation. I do not think our government will be able to provide what it has been promised to the self interested (but short sighted) voters of today.

+1

What about food and transportation? Cell phones, TV's, washer/dryers and cable television. All necessary. Oh, lest I forget, a paycheck too.

This is about perpetual power without respect for the long term damage done. Keep enough of the population depending on thier govt check and your ass stays on Air Force One no matter how low the standard of living.

 

[Anonymous]

The primary function of government is to insure the citizens can sleep without worry that someone is going to come in and force them out of their home or rob their businesses (summed up as in a particular document as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness").
.....

Typical wingnut dogma.

Where does equal rights, abolishment of slavery, work laws, public works like roadways, ensuring healthy food, control of emissions, etc. come into play?

The government plays a role for the collective good in a democracy. And, last time I checked this was a democracy. If the majority of citizens elect officials that run on national health care then deal with it or work to change it. National healthcare is not the end of the world in other contries that has adopted it, and we even have medicare.

Sure Chris, as long as YOU don't have to pay for any govt largess, right? Just force someone else to pay and everything is ok?

Newsflash. The US is broke, as in outta money. Add another 1.2 Trillion dollar entitlement (I GUARANTEE you that will turn out to be a low number) to be paid for by whom exactly?

"The CBO's preliminary estimate of H.R. 3962 puts the total cost of the health care coverage provisions at $1.05 trillion (with offsets bringing the net cost down to close to $900 billion).[3] But there are other spending provisions in the bill that the CBO has not accounted for, such as special funding for prevention and wellness, increases in the federal Medicaid matching rate, and Medicaid reimbursement for primary care physicians.

Former CBO Director Donald Marron calculates that these additional provisions would add $217 billion to the total cost of the House health care bill, raising the total cost to almost $1.3 trillion.[4] Moreover, although the score is technically a 10-year score, it is not a 10-year cost under full implementation. A full 10-year cost puts the total close to $2.4 trillion"

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm2648.cfm

You have any idea as to the economic effect this legislation will have on an extremely fragile economy? I just can't wait for cap-and-trade to pass....

 

[scribe]

Quick!!!! Everyone grab their guns and hole up!!!! Catastrophe is coming!

 

[ChrisE]

Scott,

Please link where I say I don't think I should help pay for the less fortunate. This is news to me. Thanks.

The government is broke? How did it get that way? Tax and spend, or don't tax and spend? I remember all the doomsday talk when Clinton took office in 92, and he left with a surplus. And *gasp* he raised taxes on the wealthy! Oh NO! Where did all the surplus go? Where was armegedon? I wonder....

When you stop preaching failed policies based upon right wing dogma then I will pay more attention. Your voting record is more of the problem here than mine; I am sure you voted for that idiot in 2000 and 2004 and look where we are at. What is going on right now is a direct result of what you voted for the last 8 years.

I don't see where you have alot of credibility here. No offense.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

The US has no real threats and hasn't for a long time. The only threats most of us suffer under are the war mongers fighting invisible enemies, who occasionally find themselves in control of our congress, senate, and/or white house.

Not sure how you can say no real threats? I would really like an explanation of where you got this idea?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

The primary function of government is to insure the citizens can sleep without worry that someone is going to come in and force them out of their home or rob their businesses (summed up as in a particular document as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness").
.....

Typical wingnut dogma.

Where does equal rights (liberty), abolishment of slavery (liberty), work laws, public works like roadways (the highways were created for military transport), ensuring healthy food, control of emissions, etc. come into play?

The government plays a role for the collective good in a democracy. And, last time I checked this was a democracy. If the majority of citizens elect officials that run on national health care then deal with it or work to change it. National healthcare is not the end of the world in other contries that has adopted it, and we even have medicare.

I have indicated a few answers in bold as to the first paragraph.

Generic democracy is mob rule - which is why we started with a Constitutional Democracy, understanding that the mob is all about the majority getting what they want at the expense of the minority (might makes right mentality).

As for the roadways mentioned in the first paragraph, in addition to being a necessity for the transport of the military - the political basis for the Highway system we now enjoy - they provide a safe form of transportation for citizens and business, which is associated with the concept that government is to provide for the security of their citizens.

 

[scribe]

Not sure how you can say no real threats? I would really like an explanation of where you got this idea?

We are all brothers and sisters in the human race. Make peace not war.

Now your turn. What furrin country is itchin at you?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

We are all brothers and sisters in the human race. Make peace not war.

Now your turn. What furrin country is itchin at you?

The concept that we are all brothers is fine - right up until you meet someone who is not opposed to taking what he wants and views you as easy pickings. There are a number of countries (and various political groups) who consider the United States to be an adversary.

From this post I guess you believe that since we are "all brothers and sisters in the human race" that is proof the United States has no "real threats".

From my point of view, it is my understanding that a number of Muslim terrorist/political groups have declared war on the United States; a couple of countries have announced that they intend to bring the war to the United States; a couple of South American countries have announced the demise of the United States and an intent to oppose this country on political and military grounds; and, of a much more serious nature, the Chinese government has announced by word and action that it views the United States as an enemy that it will be at war with during the next few decades.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I have to get out and ride, but I had one last thought - the Constitution to a certain extent, and the Bill of Rights to a much greater, were in acted to protect for Republic from democratic mob rule - the Framer's were certainly aware of the desire for political power and the human tendency to promise the voter to take from minority and give to the majority politically, economically, and from religious and regional perspectives (state religion, state representation, tariffs, etc.) in order to pursue or preserve that power.

 

[ChrisE]

....
From my point of view, it is my understanding that a number of Muslim terrorist/political groups have declared war on the United States; a couple of countries have announced that they intend to bring the war to the United States; a couple of South American countries have announced the demise of the United States and an intent to oppose this country on political and military grounds; and, of a much more serious nature, the Chinese government has announced by word and action that it views the United States as an enemy that it will be at war with during the next few decades.

And why is that?

Why is this country in perpetual war, and always threatening to make more? You think we do nothing to aggrevate situations in the world, and all the threats you post above just randomly happen? You think there are no monied interests in seeing the US in a constant state of military deployment?

Maybe that flies in the face of the image we think we portray. Maybe our foreign policy isn't as evenhanded and fair as we are brainwashed to believe.

Fact is the US, by far, has engaged in far more military conflicts since WWII that any other "civilized" country. Maybe if we minded our own business these acts of aggression (talk) by other countries would diminish. The fact is our military actions overseas elevates the aggression towards the US, and does nothing to diminish it.

But if we calmed down the freedom bombing we would have $ to spend on things like healthcare and infrastructure, instead of the military industrial complex. We can't have that.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Maybe that flies in the face of the image we think we portray. Maybe our foreign policy isn't as evenhanded and fair as we are brainwashed to believe.

Fact is the US, by far, has engaged in far more military conflicts since WWII that any other "civilized" country. Maybe if we minded our own business these acts of aggression (talk) by other countries would diminish. The fact is our military actions overseas elevates the aggression towards the US, and does nothing to diminish it.

But if we calmed down the freedom bombing we would have $ to spend on things like healthcare and infrastructure, instead of the military industrial complex. We can't have that.

I suppose the Soviet Union only took over Eastern Europe because of the threat it perceived from the United States - - of course when they attacked Poland at the outset of WWII that was to prevent the United States from establishing a foothold in next door. Although up until we were dragged into WWII the United States had no interests in Europe at all.

While the United States has never stated that it intends to take over the entire world other nations and political ideologies have stated exactly that - Communism has repeatedly stated it intends to be at war with and eventually win against capitalism. The same statements have been in uttered by leaders of Muslim countries for several decades. Before WWII the Fascist governments made the same statements and no one believed them - end result WWII and a rebuilding of both Europe and Japan (by the Evil Empire - the United States).

Before you start talking about how the United States foreign policy has created an atmosphere of hatred you should probably study a little history without your rose tinted glasses that screen out the intent of non-capitalist ideologies.

I am not saying that the United States foreign policy is error free (I figure we have made our fair share of mistakes) but to state the world would be a better place without it indicates a complete lack of understanding of political history.

 

[BroDeal]

I suppose the Soviet Union only took over Eastern Europe because of the threat it perceived from the United States - - of course when they attacked Poland at the outset of WWII that was to prevent the United States from establishing a foothold in next door. Although up until we were dragged into WWII the United States had no interests in Europe at all.

While the United States has never stated that it intends to take over the entire world other nations and political ideologies have stated exactly that - Communism has repeatedly stated it intends to be at war with and eventually win against capitalism. The same statements have been in uttered by leaders of Muslim countries for several decades. Before WWII the Fascist governments made the same statements and no one believed them - end result WWII and a rebuilding of both Europe and Japan (by the Evil Empire - the United States).

Before you start talking about how the United States foreign policy has created an atmosphere of hatred you should probably study a little history without your rose tinted glasses that screen out the intent of non-capitalist ideologies.

I am not saying that the United States foreign policy is error free (I figure we have made our fair share of mistakes) but to state the world would be a better place without it indicates a complete lack of understanding of political history.

Gosh, grandpa, do you have anything that happened during my lifetime? The 40's are over. So are the 50's. Communism, despite being a favored bogeyman for right wing loons, is long dead. What the United States' foreign policy was like before and immediately after WWII is irrelevant because the U.S. no longer acts that way. Just because a bully used to be nice guy does not excuse his current behavior.

 

[ChrisE]

While the United States has never stated that it intends to take over the entire world other nations and political ideologies have stated exactly that - Communism has repeatedly stated it intends to be at war with and eventually win against capitalism. The same statements have been in uttered by leaders of Muslim countries for several decades. Before WWII the Fascist governments made the same statements and no one believed them - end result WWII and a rebuilding of both Europe and Japan (by the Evil Empire - the United States).

I can turn this whole paragraph around at you.....the US has stated it intends to be against "X" etc, etc. These statement have been uttered by our leaders blah, blah, blah.

Get current, as Brodeal states. And, you haven't answered my question; why does the US exist in a state of perpetual war?

Let me guess.....they hate us for our freedoms?

You are the one with rose colored glasses.

One question....do you travel much?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Round and round in circles.

Back to a note from SoCal the other day regarding on how much more taxes the wealthy pay. This is mostly correct. I don't have a real argument about that. But it strikes me as odd that we just about have a country now where the top 1% of the population have more money than the bottom 95%.

Not saying they should be taxed back at 89% like they were a half-century ago, I don't know the answer. But it strikes me as a bit odd that with more and more tax cuts that we've had in the name of growth, we're headed even further in this direction of stratification between the super wealthy and everyone else, and soon could have a country with mega-billionaires, and millions of people living in poverty they have no hope of escaping.

Is that really the country anyone wants to live in?

 

[Sprocket01]

Round and round in circles.

Back to a note from SoCal the other day regarding on how much more taxes the wealthy pay. This is mostly correct. I don't have a real argument about that. But it strikes me as odd that we just about have a country now where the top 1% of the population have more money than the bottom 95%.

Not saying they should be taxed back at 89% like they were a half-century ago, I don't know the answer. But it strikes me as a bit odd that with more and more tax cuts that we've had in the name of growth, we're headed even further in this direction of stratification between the super wealthy and everyone else, and soon could have a country with mega-billionaires, and millions of people living in poverty they have no hope of escaping.

Is that really the country anyone wants to live in?

This is indeed a concern. Social mobility is going down in the US, which means if you are born poor you are ever more likely to die poor, but if you're born rich, you're more likely to die rich. The bottom and the middle are increasingly stuck whilst the rich get richer. It's becoming like an aristocracy. It's a trend that can't go on forever.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Gosh, grandpa, do you have anything that happened during my lifetime? The 40's are over. So are the 50's. Communism, despite being a favored bogeyman for right wing loons, is long dead. What the United States' foreign policy was like before and immediately after WWII is irrelevant because the U.S. no longer acts that way. Just because a bully used to be nice guy does not excuse his current behavior.

Soviet Communism is gone (for now) - how did it die? Was it a decrease in Military spending by the US that brought down the Berlin Wall 20 years ago?

There is still another major communist county that has made it clear that it considers the United States to be it's primary political, economic and military opponent. Communist China - a short link that summarizes the threat: http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/8/161513.shtml

Before 9/11 there was an attack on the World Trade Center in 1993 - there have been multiple embassy bombings over the past several decades - the bombing in Beirut in 1983. all by a dedicated political, cultural and religious ideology that has the destruction of the United States on the to do list right after the destruction of Israel.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

One question....do you travel much?

I have traveled - have a degree in political science (a minor in history) - and have a fairly large number of friends from a number of countries around the world. I have heard about how communist Yugoslavia treated their citizens from a good friend who lived there until his family was able to escape when he was a teenager; I have a fairly good understanding of south and central America from a number of friends and relatives who were born and raised in Venezuela, Columbia, and Mexico; one of my longest friendships is with a guy who lived in Russia for from 1992 to 2002; I had a very interesting neighbor who made it out of Vietnam in 1977 (he talked about how the schools were teaching math - 1 dead American + 3 dead Americans = 4 dead Americans). I had a number of college friends from Lebanon and I currently work with a couple of friends from Iran (they call it Persia which might tell you something of their political leanings) and a couple from India.

I have not agreed with all of our political dealing with the rest of the world (usually those of the left side of the political spectrum generally) but have enough knowledge to believe it is a pretty ignorant to place the military in mothballs because we "do not see any current enemies".

 

[CentralCaliBike]

This is indeed a concern. Social mobility is going down in the US, which means if you are born poor you are ever more likely to die poor, but if you're born rich, you're more likely to die rich. The bottom and the middle are increasingly stuck whilst the rich get richer. It's becoming like an aristocracy. It's a trend that can't go on forever.

Get used to it - ideas like universal health care (and any other outgrowth of socialism) limit the ability and desire for upward mobility through work and innovation. Russia and China are shining examples of political aristocracies > the political elites have what they took from the business elites and a lot more. The citizens ended up with a lot less than their counterparts in the rest of the world as a result.

 

[Cobblestones]

Cobbles, I love you man but you are probably wrong on the inflation scenario, very wrong on spending another 2 trillion in "stimulus" with no effect on inflation (gotta pay the borrowed money back or declare war on our creditors) and completely wrong on this "tax reduction for the rich". I posted the actual tax revenue numbers from the IRS somewhere (i think in this thread). The "rich" pay a shitload more in taxes than the non-rich as measured by percentage of income and real dollars. Any tax cut or increase will effect "the rich" simply because they pay the vast majority of the taxes. Please don't quote Warren Buffet's comments on how his secretary pays more taxes than he does because if that is true he should be ashamed of himself and if it's not true then he should be ashamed of himeself. Either way a very poor example and certainly not typical.

I reckon we will not agree on this but I appreciate the joust without name calling. Encouraging, I'd say.

Scott SoCal,
thanks for the good discussion. In the end it's just money, so no point to get too excited. Yes, we have to agree to disagree, but I'll resurrect the thread in January when the December inflation numbers will be out

A last comment: yes, the rich pay more taxes than the poor (even in % of income). Such a progressive tax system is pretty much the standard in every Western country.

Anyway, I had fun with the kids today. We're going to install a small solar panel on their tree house. It's a very nice project. They learned about voltage, current, power, batteries, kWh, and power usage of whatever they want to run: a radio, a fan, lights. We also talked about upfront investment cost, amortization etc. Very useful and instructive. Even I was surprised over some of the numbers (solar energy is freaking expensive and investments are almost impossible to recover compared to energy from coal). A real lesson on alternative energy. It brings things into perspective when you look at the young ones and think about fossil fuels and global warming.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Does anyone really consider China to be communist anymore?

And does anyone really think federal government bills such as the health care bill, or Medicare, or OSHA or NOAA, etc will potentially lead the United States to a full Soviet-like government and society?

What do people think would happen if we eliminated all of those government programs and laws? What would the country look like in a year, five years, 10? 20?

 

[fatandfast]

Does anyone really consider China to be communist anymore?

And does anyone really think federal government bills such as the health care bill, or Medicare, or OSHA or NOAA, etc will potentially lead the United States to a full Soviet-like government and society?

What do people think would happen if we eliminated all of those government programs and laws? What would the country look like in a year, five years, 10? 20?

Only thing different would be domestic jobs. China would still weld and paint and put together everything for us using the most cancerous and dangerous materials. The Africans would mine and process their raw materials for us so that again we are not harmed. The Asians in India would process our every other need and drink dirty water without complaint. The US is unlucky enough to have to assume any risk otherwise we could get those disposable people to do it for us. Thank god for coal mines and oil workers or American risk would go way down. Soon even our fire man will let it just burn out rather than risk getting hurt or killed. We will just put up a new area after the old one burns down. If OSHA tried to do their job for even a day, every kitchen in everyplace in the US would be closed in 5 minutes. China is a way of not looking at your slaves. The best of the old and new worlds. We even figured out how to outsource most of our unemployment.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Does anyone really consider China to be communist anymore?

And does anyone really think federal government bills such as the health care bill, or Medicare, or OSHA or NOAA, etc will potentially lead the United States to a full Soviet-like government and society?

What do people think would happen if we eliminated all of those government programs and laws? What would the country look like in a year, five years, 10? 20?

The frog does not know it is cooked until it is too late. Unlike the Soviet Union there is not likely to be a revolution, just a relinquishment of rights and the ability to move upward economically. eventually the advantages of working hard and being creative will be completely lost and the current downward trend will become a water slide to chaos.

 

[usedtobefast]

The frog does not know it is cooked until it is too late. Unlike the Soviet Union there is not likely to be a revolution, just a relinquishment of rights and the ability to move upward economically. eventually the advantages of working hard and being creative will be completely lost and the current downward trend will become a water slide to chaos.

other than that, shiits good...