World Politics

[Darryl Webster]

Same way that in animal farm (ill use it again) the pigs (communists) are by the end drinking and playing cards with the humans (capitalists) even though the subjects on both sides are told that the other is the enemy.

Agree 100%. My take is social control operates under a mix of Orwells 1984 vision control through fear and Albert Huxley`s Brave New World vision control through pleasure.
I dont forsee an easy evolvement to something more befiting the desciption "civilised".

 

[patricknd]

I agree on so many levals Hitch..but when did Chomsky , Pilger get a major screen release?.
You might view Moore as the "Jack ***" off documentry making and you might be right. Errors or lies apart..he stil presents an altarnative view that does make some people do that most important thing of all. Ask questions.
Agreed it aint making a jot of descernable differance in the grand scheme of things but then I tend to agree with the lyrics of this social comment.
I think you might enjoy it Hitch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4b_dBMfBf0

problem is you can make the same argument for all the limbaughs of the world. you're making people ask the wrong questions

 

[rhubroma]

1) he survived a horrible crime

2) he was covered by the italian state

3) hospital, doctors all got paid

i think it all came out pretty well. correct me if i'm wrong but had he been shot in italy the same thing would have happened. i'd say the system worked.

We call this a spurious argument.

 

[Darryl Webster]

problem is you can make the same argument for all the limbaughs of the world. you're making people ask the wrong questions

Is there any such thing as a wrong question?.

One answer to a question could be " your asking the wrong question.....and heres why".
But theres no such thing as a "wrong" guestion.

 

[patricknd]

We call this a spurious argument.

bringing up this example to begin with was nothing but sensationalizing. the man is alive, and that is the main thing.

i assume he pays his taxes in italy, and the cost of his care was taken care of by the same. his life was saved. win win situaton

 

[Elagabalus]

Guys, Guys (and Gals)

630 pages (and counting) of this?! On a "cycling forum"?! Isn't there a place you can go to share differences, engage in light banter and even get to indulge in a snark or two? All on the same thread! In short, a place that recreates the atmosphere of discussing politics with your m8s at the local?

Why, yes, by golly there is!

theforvm.org

Better bring all of your rhetorical chops 'coz your gonna' need 'em! And make sure you read the posting rules.



*Something woefully missing on these forums I can tell you!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Guys, Guys (and Gals)

630 pages (and counting) of this?! On a "cycling forum"?! Isn't there a place you can go to share differences, engage in light banter and even get to indulge in a snark or two? All on the same thread! In short, a place that recreates the atmosphere of discussing politics with your m8s at the local?

Why, yes, by golly there is!

theforvm.org

Better bring all of your rhetorical chops 'coz your gonna' need 'em! And make sure you read the posting rules.
*Something woefully missing on these forums I can tell you!

What you may not have noticed is that this is the cafe, which by definition is the "non cycling" portion of the forum. You went right past this on the way here

General
Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

see right there it says " non cycling discussion" well let's try to guess what that means.
So if politics or movies or books or snipe hunting discussions are gonna push you that tiny little bit around the corner to bat-crazy then maybe you don't want to stick your nose in here.
If the subject matter here really bothers you that much, then there is something you can do (besides seeking professional help) don't click on the Cafe section of the forum. That will still leave you 90% of the content to get lost in. I hope you will be OK.

 

[Elagabalus]

What you may not have noticed is that this is the cafe, which by definition is the "non cycling" portion of the forum. You went right past this on the way here see right there it says " non cycling discussion" well let's try to guess what that means.
So if politics or movies or books or snipe hunting discussions are gonna push you that tiny little bit around the corner to bat-crazy then maybe you don't want to stick your nose in here.
If the subject matter here really bothers you that much, then there is something you can do (besides seeking professional help) don't click on the Cafe section of the forum. That will still leave you 90% of the content to get lost in. I hope you will be OK.

Bat sh!t crazy! Whatever gave you that idea? I was just making plug for my ol' alma mater! Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers.


Edit: Oh I see now. Don't let the "Something woefully missing on these forums I can tell you" bother you. That was more of a dig at the moderators not the quality of the posts or posters.

 

[rhubroma]

bringing up this example to begin with was nothing but sensationalizing. the man is alive, and that is the main thing.

i assume he pays his taxes in italy, and the cost of his care was taken care of by the same. his life was saved. win win situaton

Nope the US system is simple inhumane and morally bankrupt, as futher evidenced by the fact that the Italian tourist was first shot and then humilited by the US private sector driven world. If there's anything sensational it is here.

The insurance companies have in the past refused to cover patients with serious, life threatening diseases. So not only does the human being, and an American citizen at that, perhaps even a most patriotic American citizen as they say, have to endure the horrific aspects of such a life threatening disease, but also the further humiliation that is ruthlessly and cruelly cast up him by the insurance industry to his financial ruin, "financial ruin" underlined.

This is what happens when health is treated only as business. While this never happens in a socialized health care system. Get it?

Ciao.

 

[patricknd]

Nope the US system is simple inhumane and morally bankrupt, as futher evidenced by the fact that the Italian tourist was first shot and then humilited by the US private sector driven world. If there's anything sensational it is here.

The insurance companies have in the past refused to cover patients with serious, life threatening diseases. So not only does the human being, and an American citizen at that, perhaps even a most patriotic American citizen as they say, have to endure the horrific aspects of such a life threatening disease, but also the further humiliation that is ruthlessly and cruelly cast up him by the insurance industry to his financial ruin, "financial ruin" underlined.

This is what happens when health is treated only as business. While this never happens in a socialized health care system. Get it?

Ciao.

congrats on the single most idiotic statement to ever grace these pages. shot by the US private sector driven world? nice to know that the criminals in other countries have loftier principles guiding their nefarious misdeeds.

the insurance company didn't cover one of the very expensive chemo drugs that saved my life because the FDA hadn't approved it yet for my specific cancer and staging. yeah it sucked, but the drug maker picked up part of the cost, i payed the rest, and the doctor took his cost as the reimbursement price. we all worked together and got it done. the FDA has since given it's approval, and now if it recurs it will be available.
it's not a perfect system, but again, a solution was found.
one of my co-workers has some friends in canada that he visits every year. recently one of them came here from treatment of prostate cancer. the reason? he didn't want to wait 2 months to start treatment. go figure. i went from coughing up blood to first chemo drip in eight days. 2- days were the weekend, and three days were spent in testing. i'll take that every time.

i'm not suggesting that healthcare doesn't need to be overhauled. but i'll put the care that i received against what is available anywhere. pardon me if i'd like my cancer treatment to be done with more efficiency than than i get when renewing my drivers license.

 

[redtreviso]

one of my co-workers has some friends in canada that he visits every year. recently one of them came here from treatment of prostate cancer. the reason? he didn't want to wait 2 months to start treatment. go figure.

Another reason would be that they had the money to get the treatment here because they weren't getting soaked for premiums in canada. There could also be many other reasons besides jumping the flaws in the canadian system. You could have many things done immediately here for cash that you would have to wait a while on otherwise. Your story from a person who had lost their insurance coverage would likely be quite different as well.

 

[rhubroma]

congrats on the single most idiotic statement to ever grace these pages. shot by the US private sector driven world? nice to know that the criminals in other countries have loftier principles guiding their nefarious misdeeds.

the insurance company didn't cover one of the very expensive chemo drugs that saved my life because the FDA hadn't approved it yet for my specific cancer and staging. yeah it sucked, but the drug maker picked up part of the cost, i payed the rest, and the doctor took his cost as the reimbursement price. we all worked together and got it done. the FDA has since given it's approval, and now if it recurs it will be available.
it's not a perfect system, but again, a solution was found.
one of my co-workers has some friends in canada that he visits every year. recently one of them came here from treatment of prostate cancer. the reason? he didn't want to wait 2 months to start treatment. go figure. i went from coughing up blood to first chemo drip in eight days. 2- days were the weekend, and three days were spent in testing. i'll take that every time.

Congrats for being the thickest poster on this forum!

No, the being shot bit, merely has too do with the culture of guns and violence which exists in the US. Not even the camora can compete with that. And we'd have to go to the second and third worlds of great political instability and/or where major drug trafficking centers exist to find a more violent and gun crazed society.

The adding insult to injury, however, can only be blamed on the private sector, which again doesn't, and more importantly can't, happen in a public health care system. It least not like this.

I'm happy that a solution was arrived at in your most difficult case.

My position, however, begins with a philosophical premise, that not everything in life should be about business. Europeans in certain regards think this way much more than Americans do. Where the money comes from is always an issue wether it be in a private or a public system. The philosophy and ideology underlying both positions, however, remains a constant and are not interchangeable. I've let it be known where I stand on the matter of course.

 

[patricknd]

Another reason would be that they had the money to get the treatment here because they weren't getting soaked for premiums in canada. There could also be many other reasons besides jumping the flaws in the canadian system. You could have many things done immediately here for cash that you would have to wait a while on otherwise. Your story from a person who had lost their insurance coverage would likely be quite different as well.

could be that he could afford it because he was responsible in how he spent his money. one of my employees hit me up for an advance to pay his wife's deductible for her back surgery. perhaps if he hadn't just bought those expensive 20" rims he wouldn't have needed that advance. sometimes it's about choices, and the ramifications of those choices. i have 50 employees, and my car cost less than all but maybe 3 or 4 of them. when i got cancer i was able to expedite testing by paying cash for things. the choices i made before hand enabled me to do that.

 

[redtreviso]

could be that he could afford it because he was responsible in how he spent his money. one of my employees hit me up for an advance to pay his wife's deductible for her back surgery. perhaps if he hadn't just bought those expensive 20" rims he wouldn't have needed that advance. sometimes it's about choices, and the ramifications of those choices. i have 50 employees, and my car cost less than all but maybe 3 or 4 of them. when i got cancer i was able to expedite testing by paying cash for things. the choices i made before hand enabled me to do that.

That is just as much luck as anything else...People as Good as you get caught without such means every day. You could have been born in Romania. If you were someone's employee you would now be married to that job. No amount of bootstrapping, self cheerleading and megadittoing would change that.

 

[patricknd]

That is just as much luck as anything else...People as Good as you get caught without such means every day. You could have been born in Romania. If you were someone's employee you would now be married to that job. No amount of bootstrapping, self cheerleading and megadittoing would change that.

the choice to live a more frugal lifestyle wasn't luck, it was a choice.

 

[redtreviso]

the choice to live a more frugal lifestyle wasn't luck, it was a choice.

I guess of those who aren't so frugal you are selective about who gets moved to the back of the line. I wonder how many frugal wonderful white american humans had college tuition all saved up for their kids only to have to give it all to the bill frist family corporation instead. You can make a choice of investment that goes up 1000% and tell everyone how wise and noble you are but there was still luck involved.

 

[patricknd]

I guess of those who aren't so frugal you are selective about who gets moved to the back of the line. I wonder how many frugal wonderful white american humans had college tuition all saved up for their kids only to have to give it all to the bill frist family corporation instead. You can make a choice of investment that goes up 1000% and tell everyone how wise and noble you are but there was still luck involved.

there is always luck involved. life is a crapshoot, so you have to make good choices to improve your chances.

 

[redtreviso]

there is always luck involved. life is a crapshoot, so you have to make good choices to improve your chances.

Of course.. I'm sitting here drinking coffee and there are people at best buy and the local car dealership being less responsible than me..They could need what they are going to spend to save their life.

http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/149721/ayn_rand_railed_against_government_benefits,_but_grabbed_social_security_and_medicare_when_she_needed_them/

 

[patricknd]

Congrats for being the thickest poster on this forum!

No, the being shot bit, merely has too do with the culture of guns and violence which exists in the US. Not even the camora can compete with that. And we'd have to go to the second and third worlds of great political instability and/or where major drug trafficking centers exist to find a more violent and gun crazed society.

The adding insult to injury, however, can only be blamed on the private sector, which again doesn't, and more importantly can't, happen in a public health care system. It least not like this.

I'm happy that a solution was arrived at in your most difficult case.

My position, however, begins with a philosophical premise, that not everything in life should be about business. Europeans in certain regards think this way much more than Americans do. Where the money comes from is always an issue wether it be in a private or a public system. The philosophy and ideology underlying both positions, however, remains a constant and are not interchangeable. I've let it be known where I stand on the matter of course.

your talking about philosophy and i'm just pointing out the reality. he was given a bill for services rendered, you see this as insulting, the reality is that it is business. if you want to talk insult let's talk about the price of my last campy group. it's for my health, and they have the nerve to want to make a profit. thieving bas#$%ds.

 

[patricknd]

Of course.. I'm sitting here drinking coffee and there are people at best buy and the local car dealership being less responsible than me..They could need what they are going to spend to save their life.

http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/149721/ayn_rand_railed_against_government_benefits,_but_grabbed_social_security_and_medicare_when_she_needed_them/

i'm glad you've learned the value of a dollar. enjoy your coffee

 

[rhubroma]

your talking about philosophy and i'm just pointing out the reality. he was given a bill for services rendered, you see this as insulting, the reality is that it is business. if you want to talk insult let's talk about the price of my last campy group. it's for my health, and they have the nerve to want to make a profit. thieving bas#$%ds.

No reality is always a constructed thing, an eternal state of becoming or else in the past. And there are choices to be made, but also dominant forces in a given historical moment. But reality isn't fixed my dear patricknd and nobody can hold exclusive patrimony to it.

I doubt this will touch your world much, though, at the same time, the world is after all beautiful because varied. The fact that this is "just business" is a "reality" in which you exist, though this isn't a universal "reality".

Good night.

 

[patricknd]

No reality is always a constructed thing, an eternal state of becoming or else in the past. And there are choices to be made, but also dominant forces in a given historical moment. But reality isn't fixed my dear patricknd and nobody can hold exclusive patrimony to it.

I doubt this will touch your world much, though, at the same time, the world is after all beautiful because varied. The fact that this is "just business" is a "reality" in which you exist, though this isn't a universal "reality".

Good night.

i find it funny that you seem more horrified by the fact that he was given a bill than you are by the fact that he was the victim of a horrible crime. the important "reality" is that he survived. maybe i'm a "glass half full" kind of guy.

 

[rhubroma]

i find it funny that you seem more horrified by the fact that he was given a bill than you are by the fact that he was the victim of a horrible crime. the important "reality" is that he survived. maybe i'm a "glass half full" kind of guy.

That's your conclusion. I find it interesting, however, to know how you thought about what I wrote about the incident, because, in reality, it only demonstrated how you would like to think I thought, I thought, though this doesn't surprise me.

No doubt it helps you with your conscience in feeling less uncomfortable about your world, as it relates to the incident we discussed, that is seeing the glass half full.

The reality, of course, is that I'm just as horrified about someone getting shot driving along a Florida interstate while on vacation in my country, as I am about them getting sent the bill after hospitalization, for different, though equally important, reasons. It's like two for the price of one. Especially since in my world if you were to get shot while on vacation, you would be treated without any required payment, despite not holding citizenship and probably receive official apologies from the state. Now between the two systems, which was the more humane? Decorous?

To use your analysis, this makes the glass decidedly empty.

 

[Darryl Webster]

there is always luck involved. life is a crapshoot, so you have to make good choices to improve your chances.

The Animal Kingdom is were life is a crabshoot. The Human Kingdom, if we are to claim that capacity of humanity, is were healthcare is a given, regardless of wealth, race or cread.
Any thing else is "selective care" and therefore not care at all.
No amount of money can buy care..you iether do or you dont.
A healthcare system thats based on private insurance does not care about anything more than the bottom line.
It`s profit.
Care isnt required.

 

[patricknd]

The Animal Kingdom is were life is a crabshoot. The Human Kingdom, if we are to claim that capacity of humanity, is were healthcare is a given, regardless of wealth, race or cread.
Any thing else is "selective care" and therefore not care at all.
No amount of money can buy care..you iether do or you dont.
A healthcare system thats based on private insurance does not care about anything more than the bottom line.
It`s profit.
Care isnt required.

crabshooting is cruelty in my world. what kind of beast are you?