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Jul 9, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Holy sh!t, I had to read this twice to believe what I just read: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/10/us/10iht-currents10.html?_r=1

I agree with Sarah Palin...100% on this. I am literally shocked that came out of her mouth.

Wow. Broken Clock Syndrome? She can't actually mean to say what she seems to be saying, can she? Guess she's not planning on running for President, where would the money for a campaign come from now?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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I'm not aware that I'm a NYT subscriber but I was able to read the story. Here's the meat -

"But something curious happened when Ms. Palin strode onto the stage last weekend at a Tea Party event in Indianola, Iowa. Along with her familiar and predictable swipes at President Barack Obama and the “far left,” she delivered a devastating indictment of the entire U.S. political establishment — left, right and center — and pointed toward a way of transcending the presently unbridgeable political divide.

The next day, the “lamestream” media, as she calls it, played into her fantasy of it by ignoring the ideas she unfurled and dwelling almost entirely on the will-she-won’t-she question of her presidential ambitions.

So here is something I never thought I would write: a column about Sarah Palin’s ideas.

There was plenty of the usual Palin schtick — words that make clear that she is not speaking to everyone but to a particular strain of American: “The working men and women of this country, you got up off your couch, you came down from the deer stand, you came out of the duck blind, you got off the John Deere, and we took to the streets, and we took to the town halls, and we ended up at the ballot box.”

But when her throat was cleared at last, Ms. Palin had something considerably more substantive to say.

She made three interlocking points. First, that the United States is now governed by a “permanent political class,” drawn from both parties, that is increasingly cut off from the concerns of regular people. Second, that these Republicans and Democrats have allied with big business to mutual advantage to create what she called “corporate crony capitalism.” Third, that the real political divide in the United States may no longer be between friends and foes of Big Government, but between friends and foes of vast, remote, unaccountable institutions (both public and private).

In supporting her first point, about the permanent political class, she attacked both parties’ tendency to talk of spending cuts while spending more and more; to stoke public anxiety about a credit downgrade, but take a vacation anyway; to arrive in Washington of modest means and then somehow ride the gravy train to fabulous wealth. She observed that 7 of the 10 wealthiest counties in the United States happen to be suburbs of the nation’s capital.

Her second point, about money in politics, helped to explain the first. The permanent class stays in power because it positions itself between two deep troughs: the money spent by the government and the money spent by big companies to secure decisions from government that help them make more money.

“Do you want to know why nothing ever really gets done?” she said, referring to politicians. “It’s because there’s nothing in it for them. They’ve got a lot of mouths to feed — a lot of corporate lobbyists and a lot of special interests that are counting on them to keep the good times and the money rolling along.”

Because her party has agitated for the wholesale deregulation of money in politics and the unshackling of lobbyists, these will be heard in some quarters as sacrilegious words.

Ms. Palin’s third point was more striking still: in contrast to the sweeping paeans to capitalism and the free market delivered by the Republican presidential candidates whose ranks she has yet to join, she sought to make a distinction between good capitalists and bad ones. The good ones, in her telling, are those small businesses that take risks and sink and swim in the churning market; the bad ones are well-connected megacorporations that live off bailouts, dodge taxes and profit terrifically while creating no jobs.

Strangely, she was saying things that liberals might like, if not for Ms. Palin’s having said them.

“This is not the capitalism of free men and free markets, of innovation and hard work and ethics, of sacrifice and of risk,” she said of the crony variety. She added: “It’s the collusion of big government and big business and big finance to the detriment of all the rest — to the little guys. It’s a slap in the face to our small business owners — the true entrepreneurs, the job creators accounting for 70 percent of the jobs in America.”

Is there a hint of a political breakthrough hiding in there?

The political conversation in the United States is paralyzed by a simplistic division of labor. Democrats protect that portion of human flourishing that is threatened by big money and enhanced by government action. Republicans protect that portion of human flourishing that is threatened by big government and enhanced by the free market.

What is seldom said is that human flourishing is a complex and delicate thing, and that we needn’t choose whether government or the market jeopardizes it more, because both can threaten it at the same time.

Ms. Palin may be hinting at a new political alignment that would pit a vigorous localism against a kind of national-global institutionalism.

On one side would be those Americans who believe in the power of vast, well-developed institutions like Goldman Sachs, the Teamsters Union, General Electric, Google and the U.S. Department of Education to make the world better. On the other side would be people who believe that power, whether public or private, becomes corrupt and unresponsive the more remote and more anonymous it becomes; they would press to live in self-contained, self-governing enclaves that bear the burden of their own prosperity.

No one knows yet whether Ms. Palin will actually run for president. But she did just get more interesting."


The question that immediately came to my suspicious mind was, did she actually understand what she was saying, since these ideas could clearly have never sprung from her mind? But it's certainly a remarkable text coming from her.
 
May 23, 2010
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Republicon Family Values - Italian style

despicable RepubliThink & RepubliSpeak

""Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi reportedly called German Chancellor Angela Merkel an""
 
A

Anonymous

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redtreviso said:
you could have copied some of this for those who aren't nyt subscribers.

The synopsis quoted from the article: "She made three interlocking points. First, that the United States is now governed by a “permanent political class,” drawn from both parties, that is increasingly cut off from the concerns of regular people. Second, that these Republicans and Democrats have allied with big business to mutual advantage to create what she called “corporate crony capitalism.” Third, that the real political divide in the United States may no longer be between friends and foes of Big Government, but between friends and foes of vast, remote, unaccountable institutions (both public and private). "

Stopped clock, diversion tactics, just plain dumb luck, it doesn't matter, that is dead on target. To quote Colonel Kurtz: "And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius!"...not that I hadn't said those exact things myself before.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
LOL! Everyone in America should see that movie. At least with those over the IQ of about 80. Those less than that may confuse it fora Nova episode. :D

wanna see a movie that will make you not sleep Iron Crows..all the politics anybody needs to see. I saw it on a big screen and it was beyond description
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
The synopsis quoted from the article: "She made three interlocking points. First, that the United States is now governed by a “permanent political class,” drawn from both parties, that is increasingly cut off from the concerns of regular people. Second, that these Republicans and Democrats have allied with big business to mutual advantage to create what she called “corporate crony capitalism.” Third, that the real political divide in the United States may no longer be between friends and foes of Big Government, but between friends and foes of vast, remote, unaccountable institutions (both public and private). "

Stopped clock, diversion tactics, just plain dumb luck, it doesn't matter, that is dead on target. To quote Colonel Kurtz: "And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius!"...not that I hadn't said those exact things myself before.

she makes obvious points that are anathema to "permanent political class". however, she has shown every sign of wanting to join that club in order to cash in herself. it's no different than the promises made by the current leader of the "permanent political class". he was going to close gitmo and create the most transparent administration ever, etc., etc. look how that's worked out.
 
May 18, 2009
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rhubroma said:
I didn't say I knew how spreading the wealth and education is to be done, or that it even can be done (certainly not in our system, as Scott knows all too well), but all the evidence suggests that birthrates often drop off under certain economic and educational conditions. Conditions, which, however, don't exist throughout the pre-industrial cultures or in the ghettos.

Which means none of this has to do with intelligence or a lack there of, but environment and culture. My argument was that if these things were to change, even though I am under no illusions about it and am of course only speaking hypothetically, if thus a similar set of circumstances were to be found among the many peoples who are still living much more in a state of nature than we are, then perhaps similar behavior patterns would develop.

The problem is that the lessons of Western colonialism and imperialism have only demonstrated that no such change would ever have been afforded by anything we brought or did, the dramatic consequences of which for the people of the ex-colonies are still terribly real. If anything we made the living conditions decidedly worse and, at the same time, annihilated the ethos of the indigenous cultures, while hypocritically claiming to have saved them from their heathen ways by bringing them the true religion and providing them with an infinitely superior civilization, when in fact it was all just about profit and exploitation. The racism alone is evidence of this fact. Consequently we need new models and paradigms, both internally in our world and externally in theirs, if any such population equilibrium is to be reached. Instead what we get is the same greedy and rapacious world of the strong exercising prepotency over the weak as always.

This is why I can not subscribe to your rather acrimonious and misguided view, because we are much more at fault for the deplorable living conditions of those who don't have much access to anything else besides reproduction, I've thought.

You are going off on a tangent. I say there is correlation between choices people make and where they end up in terms of unwanted pregnancy. You are talking about struggle between classes and a bunch of other irrelevant BS, which has nothing to do with whether or not somebody chooses to get pregnant. You directly correlate somebody's economic condition due to society with whether they make the right choices about something they can control. I call BS; people that continually make bad personal choices are not the victims of economic disparity.

Also if you switched Bill Gates with the poor unemployed person with 5 kids and more on the way, in 5 years he wouldn't have 5 kids and Microsoft would not be thriving. You think you can mix/match based solely on social class and opportunity, and I do not agree. No matter how much opportunity a society affords, there will still be stupid people making bad choices and smart people that accel.

It bothers me that you are inflicting innocent unsuspecting youth in Italy with this type of victim cookie cutter drivel. I travel through Europe periodically on business. If you would like me to take a detour to Italy one day to be a guest speaker in your classes I would be obliged. Hopefully you are teaching underwater basket weaving or something, and not having intellectual conversations with those kids.
 
May 23, 2010
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""Former Florida governor and senator Bob Graham is calling on President Obama to reopen the investigation into the Sept. 11 attacks after new information has emerged about the possible role of prominent Saudis in the 9/11 plot. According to recent news reports, a wealthy young Saudi couple fled their home in a gated community in Sarasota, Florida, just a week or so before Sept. 11, 2001, leaving behind three cars and nearly all of their possessions. The FBI was tipped off about the couple but never passed the information on to the 9/11 Commission investigating the attacks, even though phone records showed the couple had ties to Mohamed Atta and at least 10 other al-Qaeda suspects""

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/15/former_senator_bob_graham_urges_obama

Bob Graham better stay out of small aircraft..
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Regarding Palin. I too agree she's right. Of course she's right, it's common sense, in a political world filled with very little common sense, but plenty of dirty money but I drew two conclusions from this, both of which have been mentioned here:

First is that I got every impression in the past three years she was trying to be part of the very elite class of connected money she derides here. If she wasn't like that at all before, and has had an epiphany, then I applaud her.

Second, this tells me she isn't running for President. Either that or she won't raise enough money to get anywhere (or she's lying, but I don't think so at this point).

So I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt, and say I'd like to hear more from this Sarah Palin.
 
May 23, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Regarding Palin. I too agree she's right. Of course she's right, it's common sense, in a political world filled with very little common sense, but plenty of dirty money but I drew two conclusions from this, both of which have been mentioned here:

First is that I got every impression in the past three years she was trying to be part of the very elite class of connected money she derides here. If she wasn't like that at all before, and has had an epiphany, then I applaud her.

Second, this tells me she isn't running for President. Either that or she won't raise enough money to get anywhere (or she's lying, but I don't think so at this point).

So I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt, and say I'd like to hear more from this Sarah Palin.

I doubt she could spell epiphany much less have one.. Her speech writer is probably having a good laugh though..
 
ChrisE said:
You are going off on a tangent. I say there is correlation between choices people make and where they end up in terms of unwanted pregnancy. You are talking about struggle between classes and a bunch of other irrelevant BS, which has nothing to do with whether or not somebody chooses to get pregnant. You directly correlate somebody's economic condition due to society with whether they make the right choices about something they can control. I call BS; people that continually make bad personal choices are not the victims of economic disparity.

Also if you switched Bill Gates with the poor unemployed person with 5 kids and more on the way, in 5 years he wouldn't have 5 kids and Microsoft would not be thriving. You think you can mix/match based solely on social class and opportunity, and I do not agree. No matter how much opportunity a society affords, there will still be stupid people making bad choices and smart people that accel.

It bothers me that you are inflicting innocent unsuspecting youth in Italy with this type of victim cookie cutter drivel. I travel through Europe periodically on business. If you would like me to take a detour to Italy one day to be a guest speaker in your classes I would be obliged. Hopefully you are teaching underwater basket weaving or something, and not having intellectual conversations with those kids.

Been on those pills again have we? Ok...break's over! :D

I felt the rather unpleasant, though distinct, impulse to throw up the corneto I was having with my cappuccino when I read your utterly nonsensical drivel.

For class struggle is exactly what we are talking about and of course culture. What you are talking about is nature, which has no bearing whatsoever, whereas I'm talking about environment, which of course is of greatest importance in this regard. How else can we explain the tendency, on the other end of the spectrum, of the educated and affluent to make less babies over the last couple of generations. Both sets of my immigrant grandparents had five children and were pretty poor, while my parents had just two, though could have had more, at least based on their economic means, had they wanted to? My sibling has no children and has no plans of having any, nor do I of course. But I don't subscribe that mere increased wages would change much, rather a cultural change is what's needed and this can only be brought about through education and environment, as the case I indicated in another post in America prooves.

I'm used to at least getting something of intelligence, however revolting, from you, but that was just really stupid, really stupid underlined. So I could never invite you as a guest speaker to any one of my classes. It would be too risky to my students and there might be a travesty; they might not be able to handle it and probably would never recover from the trauma, which they would invariably sustain, just as I have, by being so mercilessly and ruthlessly bombarded by the colossus of your inanities.

So you would like to drop by to Italy, would you? Well that's fine, though let me worn you, as I had warned and explained to my horrified parents when I choose to live here more or less permanently. They know about Italian conditions, which are always chaotic where travel is concerned. The unions see to that there are almost daily strikes and daily chaos throughout Italy. My brother, who is now in Austria, is well aware of these chaotic conditions, as I have told him about them often enough and he reads about them in the newspapers. I therefore had no qualms about saying that I had been unable to come earlier the last time I visited him, because he was bound to put it down at once to these chaotic conditions and not suspect me of lying. To my family the word Italy has always been synonymous with chaos; Italy is the land of chaos. They have often asked my why I choose to live in Italy of all countries, where these chaotic conditions have prevailed for decades, and I have always replied precisely because of these chaotic conditions that I choose to live in Italy, and in Rome, where they are at their most chaotic, where everything is unpredictable and impossible. I used to tell them that I chose to live in Rome precisely because Italy was the most chaotic country in Europe, probably in the whole world, and because Rome was the utter center of this chaos. They did not understand, and I never felt inclined to go into further explanations, as I quite naturally do with my students, of my interest in Italy. A big city as such is not enough for me, I would tell them: it has to be a chaotic big city, a chaotic world city. But they could make no sense of such notions, or of any other notions of mine.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Holy sh!t, I had to read this twice to believe what I just read: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/10/us/10iht-currents10.html?_r=1

I agree with Sarah Palin...100% on this. I am literally shocked that came out of her mouth.

Interestingly enough, her analysis could also apply to French politics and politicians.

1. "permanent political class" - most French politicians went to the same school (ENA) and entered political life immediately after. They are infused with a certain entitlement as to their place in the ruling class, and a total disconnection with the life of ordinary citizens.

2. "allied with big business to mutual advantage" - most leaders of the major French companies (of which the French state is a historical shareholder) come from the political class and are appointed by successive governments according to their political affinities. These companies are then available to serve the political and financial ambitions of those in power. There is a permanently incestuous relationship between government and big business.

3. "the real political divide may no longer be between friends and foes of Big Government, but between friends and foes of vast, remote, unaccountable institutions (both public and private)." - see points 1 and 2. Note also that many French politicians are married to media celebrities (example is DSK, but there are also many others)

She made three interlocking points. First, that the United States is now governed by a “permanent political class,” drawn from both parties, that is increasingly cut off from the concerns of regular people. Second, that these Republicans and Democrats have allied with big business to mutual advantage to create what she called “corporate crony capitalism.” Third, that the real political divide in the United States may no longer be between friends and foes of Big Government, but between friends and foes of vast, remote, unaccountable institutions (both public and private).

In supporting her first point, about the permanent political class, she attacked both parties’ tendency to talk of spending cuts while spending more and more; to stoke public anxiety about a credit downgrade, but take a vacation anyway; to arrive in Washington of modest means and then somehow ride the gravy train to fabulous wealth. She observed that 7 of the 10 wealthiest counties in the United States happen to be suburbs of the nation’s capital.

Her second point, about money in politics, helped to explain the first. The permanent class stays in power because it positions itself between two deep troughs: the money spent by the government and the money spent by big companies to secure decisions from government that help them make more money.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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ChrisE said:
You are going off on a tangent. I say there is correlation between choices people make and where they end up in terms of unwanted pregnancy. You are talking about struggle between classes and a bunch of other irrelevant BS, which has nothing to do with whether or not somebody chooses to get pregnant. You directly correlate somebody's economic condition due to society with whether they make the right choices about something they can control. I call BS; people that continually make bad personal choices are not the victims of economic disparity.

Also if you switched Bill Gates with the poor unemployed person with 5 kids and more on the way, in 5 years he wouldn't have 5 kids and Microsoft would not be thriving. You think you can mix/match based solely on social class and opportunity, and I do not agree. No matter how much opportunity a society affords, there will still be stupid people making bad choices and smart people that accel.

It bothers me that you are inflicting innocent unsuspecting youth in Italy with this type of victim cookie cutter drivel. I travel through Europe periodically on business. If you would like me to take a detour to Italy one day to be a guest speaker in your classes I would be obliged. Hopefully you are teaching underwater basket weaving or something, and not having intellectual conversations with those kids.

If you go to a poor woman with five kids and tell her, convince her, her plight is a result of her stupidity, her poor choices, she may end up believing you. The result could be she feels even less in control of her life and makes even more poor choices, as if it is her that is acted upon instead of acting.

The research is clear: poorer, uneducated women have more children. Your take is that's because they're stupid, and probably poor because of it, too.

The research is also clear on another permutation: less educated women have fewer choices in their lives and have less control over it. Their lives are more populated by other, less-educated men who aren't inclined to 'negotiate' such things as contraception as freely. I can imagine how you're going to take this.

When you're feeling low, and disadvantage is a reality in your life, it's very hard to 'bootstrap' yourself. Consider that next time you're travelling internationally on business and congratulating yourself on your superior intellect and moral substance.

Have I gotten you wrong again? Is that my fault or do you just fail to explain yourself with necessary clarity? What else do you call BS on?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
...
So I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt, and say I'd like to hear more from this Sarah Palin.

even though i also agree with her on these points, i would prefer not to hear anything at all from her.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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gregod said:
even though i also agree with her on these points, i would prefer not to hear anything at all from her.

Good for you. There hasn't been enough shooting of the messenger in the last 1000 posts on this thread. Step it up guys.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Captain_Cavman said:
Good for you. There hasn't been enough shooting of the messenger in the last 1000 posts on this thread. Step it up guys.

forgive me. a serious question: what do you mean by your post? what messenger is metaphorically being shot? maybe i am just being thick, but an explanation would be welcome.
 
May 18, 2009
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Stingray34 said:
If you go to a poor woman with five kids and tell her, convince her, her plight is a result of her stupidity, her poor choices, she may end up believing you. The result could be she feels even less in control of her life and makes even more poor choices, as if it is her that is acted upon instead of acting.

The research is clear: poorer, uneducated women have more children. Your take is that's because they're stupid, and probably poor because of it, too.

The research is also clear on another permutation: less educated women have fewer choices in their lives and have less control over it. Their lives are more populated by other, less-educated men who aren't inclined to 'negotiate' such things as contraception as freely. I can imagine how you're going to take this.

When you're feeling low, and disadvantage is a reality in your life, it's very hard to 'bootstrap' yourself. Consider that next time you're travelling internationally on business and congratulating yourself on your superior intellect and moral substance.

Have I gotten you wrong again? Is that my fault or do you just fail to explain yourself with necessary clarity? What else do you call BS on?

Why would I go and tell somebody in poverty with 5 kids and more on the way they are stupid? That is obvious. The cat is out of the bag. Wouldn't you rather put your energy towards a poor kid in jr. high or high school and tell them they would be stupid to make those choices until they are financially and emotionally stable? As you and rhubarb are arguing councelling like that is worthless unless there is some type of redistribution of wealth.

And, why are they uneducated? Public schools are open to all, and you get out of school what you put into it. There are assistance programs available for further education if one chooses to go down that path. And, colleges today offer choices for working students such as weekend classes, and accelerated courses taken in the evenings.

In summary, there are avenues to get out of poverty if one CHOOSES or has the mental capacities to do so, and that is where some people struggle with entitlement programs (discounting the present economic conditions, this is an issue that has happened regardless of that). That would not be me, BTW. These posts are about personal responsibility, not what society should do about those who are just unable or thru their choices choose not to succeed. There will be people in society that make bad choices or are just as I say "stupid", and those will require safety nets or else you will have people dying on the street and crime thru the roof. I realilze that. I would hope that eventually even the most idiotic teabagger would eventually figure this out, but I have my doubts.

Regardless, whatever is going on in somebody's life there is a choice to make when it comes to getting pregnant. And, if you are struggling to come out of poverty then the last thing you want to CHOOSE to do is get pregnant, especially in a broken down family structure. Society is not forcing them to have more children and thus furthering their life into one of poverty, as well as their children. It makes the problem worse, for them and society.

The problem with the fringe left in this country is they don't want to look at the real problems and address reality of what people choose to do, and work to change the mindset causing the issue. You and rhubarb want to rattle on about pregnancy "victims" to further socialistic government, as if that would be some type of eradicator of poor choices of the stupid. I don't fall in your camp. Sorry.
 
May 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Regarding Palin. I too agree she's right. Of course she's right, it's common sense, in a political world filled with very little common sense, but plenty of dirty money but I drew two conclusions from this, both of which have been mentioned here:

First is that I got every impression in the past three years she was trying to be part of the very elite class of connected money she derides here. If she wasn't like that at all before, and has had an epiphany, then I applaud her.

Second, this tells me she isn't running for President. Either that or she won't raise enough money to get anywhere (or she's lying, but I don't think so at this point).

So I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt, and say I'd like to hear more from this Sarah Palin.

Not only that, but apparently she was screwing Glen Rice. Talking sense and screwing black men surely creates an uphill battle in the quest for tea party support.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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gregod said:
forgive me. a serious question: what do you mean by your post? what messenger is metaphorically being shot? maybe i am just being thick, but an explanation would be welcome.

Yeah you're right, I got my metaphor arse about face. The way it's supposed to work is that you shoot the bringer of bad news because you don't like the news. In this case it's more that the message is shot down because you don't like the messenger. If anyone's got a more apt messenger related metaphor, please let me know.

What have you got against Sarah Palin anyway?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Captain_Cavman said:
What have you got against Sarah Palin anyway?

She is (or was, before these latest 'thoughts' from her,) a 100% certified reactionary idiot who, in any other country, would not even be elected as dogcatcher.
 
Nov 30, 2010
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Amsterhammer said:
She is (or was, before these latest 'thoughts' from her,) a 100% certified reactionary idiot who, in any other country, would not even be elected as dogcatcher.

Hmmm. Maybe gregod can come up with something a little more reasoned
 
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