World Politics

[Cobblestones]

...the guy is definitely interesting....provocative would also be another way to describe him...and yes there is that part of him that would be fatal if he ever ran a state...and while that article gobsmacked me it didn't surprise me as much as I thought it would....all in all a bit of a quandry that man is...would really love to like him but something is off...

Cheers

blutto

He said something really, really stupid and the article called him out on it. Rightly so, IMHO. And it was well-written, too.

 

[Cobblestones]

The govt is still precariously placed and can easily lose a no confidence motion when allow a bill (resolution) so contentious. If the people of Greece are against the bill, it should fail. Govts before have taken a stance similar by saying that the people can make mistakes sometimes (missile defence in Czech Republic) and haven't come out of it well.

What Greece would do to become an Iceland at the moment.

People can make mistakes sometimes, that's when you show political leadership in a representative democracy. Other times, a referendum is the best way to get a democratic decision.

At this point, we have neither. There's no referendum, and there's no political leadership (as you rightly pointed out, Papandreu just lost his parliamentary majority). We only have the dictate of the capital.

 

[ramjambunath]

People can make mistakes sometimes, that's when you show political leadership in a representative democracy. Other times, a referendum is the best way to get a democratic decision.

At this point, we have neither. There's no referendum, and there's no political leadership (as you rightly pointed out, Papandreu just lost his parliamentary majority). We only have the dictate of the capital.

One question is- What if the opposition does come into power, can they just ignore the 'aid package' from the EU? There would still just be two options.

A bit away from the specific topic but the Euro shot itself in the foot by making political decisions rather than economic ones by including countries like Greece and Romania in a unified currency with France and Germany.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

What was that again about capital punishment having the necessary checks and balances?

eh, it's Texas, we'll just kill him anyway.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/hank-skinner-texas-death-row_b_1072707.html

eh Texas kills! Also down in Aransas Pass obviously they likes to beat on Children.

 

[Bala Verde]

eh Texas kills! Also down in Aransas Pass obviously they likes to beat on Children.

Hey Glenn. Could you please stop posting nonsense? Consider this a first warning before we go down the path of sanctions.

Oh, and please, don't try to be smart in your response to this warning...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Interesting post there Cobblestones on Europe and the thoughts of "Democracy and capitalism are having a divorce. With ugly and nasty results."

The entire Greece thing is a mess. If they don't go with the austerity deal, they're likely to go bankrupt in many ways, and cause a large ripple in the global economy. If they do, they're likely to face serious riots in the streets, a drop in productivity and tourism, and more.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Interesting post there Cobblestones on Europe and the thoughts of "Democracy and capitalism are having a divorce. With ugly and nasty results."

The entire Greece thing is a mess. If they don't go with the austerity deal, they're likely to go bankrupt in many ways, and cause a large ripple in the global economy. If they do, they're likely to face serious riots in the streets, a drop in productivity and tourism, and more.

I saw an interesting article (will try to find again) suggesting that much of the debt accrued by 'Mediterranean' countries is down to the traditional culture of tax avoidance, which many appear to see as a sort of game.

The only immediate hope for Greece would appear to be the formation of a government of national unity - but that seems to be dependent on Papandreou stepping down, which he is so far unwilling to do. I fully expect someone to make him an offer he can't refuse.....


edit - article referred to above added

Tax evasion is a national pastime afflicting southern Europe

(CNN) -- "Wherever the olive tree grows, you won't find much tax being collected," the mayor of a small town in southern Spain told me a few years ago. He shrugged; such was life.

He probably had no idea that some high-powered academics were about to come up with the same conclusion. When they analyzed Europe's "shadow economies" -- defined as areas that fall beyond the reach of the taxman -- those of Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal were much larger (relatively) than those in northern Europe.

That is partly because of the higher number of self-employed and family businesses, which tend to deal in cash and pay little tax. But to many economic commentators, tax evasion is also a national pastime in much of southern Europe, and a significant factor in the region's burgeoning financial crisis.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/02/opinion/europe-shadow-economies/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

 

[blutto]

Interesting post there Cobblestones on Europe and the thoughts of "Democracy and capitalism are having a divorce. With ugly and nasty results."

The entire Greece thing is a mess. If they don't go with the austerity deal, they're likely to go bankrupt in many ways, and cause a large ripple in the global economy. If they do, they're likely to face serious riots in the streets, a drop in productivity and tourism, and more.

...while I agree that most of the possible outcomes of this mess are indeed dire there have been several commentators ( who have a much better sense of the economics of the situation than I ) who have put forth an interesting and different read on the situation...the following is from an article by Rodert Reich who sums this up nicely...

If Greek voters accept the bailout terms, unemployment will rise even further in Greece, public services will be cut more than they have already, the Greek economy will contract, and the standard of living of most Greeks will deteriorate further.

If Greek voters reject the terms and the nation defaults, it will face far higher borrowing costs in the future. This may reduce the standard of living of most Greeks, too. But it doesn’t have to. Without the austerity measures the rest of Europe and the IMF are demanding, the Greek economy has a better chance of growing and more Greeks are likely to find jobs.

...assuming that analysis is correct, one wonders for whose benefit the referendum was cancelled....and who will then be the target of the inevitable riots?...because pulling back the referendum after knowing the bailout will not necesarily help the Greek people as much as the option that would probably be the result of the referendum ( the Iceland option ) may make Greece a very unhappy place to be for the government folks who nixed the vote...

...this just got a lot uglier then it was before...hummm...do I smell a military coup?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Anonymous]

...while I agree that most of the possible outcomes of this mess are indeed dire there have been several commentators ( who have a much better sense of the economics of the situation than I ) who have put forth an interesting and different read on the situation...the following is from an article by Rodert Reich who sums this up nicely...

If Greek voters accept the bailout terms, unemployment will rise even further in Greece, public services will be cut more than they have already, the Greek economy will contract, and the standard of living of most Greeks will deteriorate further.

If Greek voters reject the terms and the nation defaults, it will face far higher borrowing costs in the future. This may reduce the standard of living of most Greeks, too. But it doesn’t have to. Without the austerity measures the rest of Europe and the IMF are demanding, the Greek economy has a better chance of growing and more Greeks are likely to find jobs.

...assuming that analysis is correct, one wonders for whose benefit the referendum was cancelled....and who will then be the target of the inevitable riots?...because pulling back the referendum after knowing the bailout will not necesarily help the Greek people as much as the option that would probably be the result of the referendum ( the Iceland option ) may make Greece a very unhappy place to be for the government folks who nixed the vote...

...this just got a lot uglier then it was before...hummm...do I smell a military coup?...

Cheers

blutto

If Greek voters reject the terms and the nation defaults, it will face far higher borrowing costs in the future. This may reduce the standard of living of most Greeks, too. But it doesn’t have to. Without the austerity measures the rest of Europe and the IMF are demanding, the Greek economy has a better chance of growing and more Greeks are likely to find jobs.

Far higher? How about monumentally high hard money rates?? Greece will undoubtedly have austerity measures one way or another.

Greek citizenry will give back a lot no matter what. It's classic over-promise/under-deliver.

...assuming that analysis is correct, one wonders for whose benefit the referendum was cancelled.

It was cancelled because a vote equals default. Of all the available (terrible) options, default is probably the worst.

 

[redtreviso]

""“These 280 corporations received a total of nearly $224 billion in tax subsidies,” said Robert McIntyre, Director at Citizens for Tax Justice and the report’s lead author. “This is wasted money that could have gone to protect Medicare, create jobs and cut the deficit.”

30 Companies average less than zero tax bill in the last three Years, 78 had at least one no-tax year.

Financial services received the largest share of all federal tax subsidies over the last three years. More than half the tax subsidies for companies in the study went to four industries: financial services, utilities, telecommunications, and oil, gas & pipelines.

U.S. corporations with significant foreign profits paid tax rates to foreign countries that were almost a third higher than they paid to the IRS on their domestic profits.
""

http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/

 

[blutto]

Far higher? How about monumentally high hard money rates?? Greece will undoubtedly have austerity measures one way or another.

Greek citizenry will give back a lot no matter what. It's classic over-promise/under-deliver.



It was cancelled because a vote equals default. Of all the available (terrible) options, default is probably the worst.

....and you are, of course, free to offer your perspective, though it should be pointed out that your position is offered at a very safe distance...but even after considering your learned opinion I still think it would have nice if the people who are more directly in the line of fire actually had a say in their future...and I believe that would be considered reasonable by most people...

...and by the way, with as much respect as I have for your opinions, in this case I have to say I'm tying my horse to Reich's position...the Greek people may actually be better off if they went full Iceland...though I do understand this would hurt your friends in the banking industry...but hey somebody gotta pay the price so why not the guys who cooked up this sweet deal in the first place...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

""“These 280 corporations received a total of nearly $224 billion in tax subsidies,” said Robert McIntyre, Director at Citizens for Tax Justice and the report’s lead author. “This is wasted money that could have gone to protect Medicare, create jobs and cut the deficit.”

30 Companies average less than zero tax bill in the last three Years, 78 had at least one no-tax year.

Financial services received the largest share of all federal tax subsidies over the last three years. More than half the tax subsidies for companies in the study went to four industries: financial services, utilities, telecommunications, and oil, gas & pipelines.

U.S. corporations with significant foreign profits paid tax rates to foreign countries that were almost a third higher than they paid to the IRS on their domestic profits.
""

http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/

....so the tax avoidance thingee is just not family businesses being greedy and becoming the ruination of places like say Portugal, Spain and Greece...like who would have thunk it....though I'm sure in some circles this would be just called prudent business practices....but that probably just depends on which side of the tracks you live on...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Anonymous]

....and you are, of course, free to offer your perspective, though it should be pointed out that your position is offered at a very safe distance...but even after considering your learned opinion I still think it would have nice if the people who are more directly in the line of fire actually had a say in their future...and I believe that would be considered reasonable by most people...

...and by the way, with as much respect as I have for your opinions, in this case I have to say I'm tying my horse to Reich's position...the Greek people may actually be better off if they went full Iceland...though I do understand this would hurt your friends in the banking industry...but hey somebody gotta pay the price so why not the guys who cooked up this sweet deal in the first place...

Cheers

blutto

I still think it would have nice if the people who are more directly in the line of fire actually had a say in their future...and I believe that would be considered reasonable by most people...

I completely agree. The Greeks ought to determine their future.

When they vote to tell the Germans "thanks, but no thanks" then their tenure in the eurozone will be over. They will have nearly zero ability to borrow and obligations will be astronomical.

Do you think that will be the best outcome? I'm guessing that in the long term, at best, would be "maybe". In the short term it will result in kaos. In fact I'd imagine many surrounding countries will have quite an influx of new Greek immigrants.

though I do understand this would hurt your friends in the banking industry...but hey somebody gotta pay the price so why not the guys who cooked up this sweet deal in the first place...

I have exactly the same amount of friends in the banking world as you do, unless your count is above zero.

 

[Anonymous]

....so the tax avoidance thingee is just not family businesses being greedy and becoming the ruination of places like say Portugal, Spain and Greece...like who would have thunk it....though I'm sure in some circles this would be just called prudent business practices....but that probably just depends on which side of the tracks you live on...

Cheers

blutto

Except the companies quoted in the US are not evading taxes. What they are doing is perfectly legal.

Instead of blaming company exec's why not blame crooked politicians?

Oh yeah, I forgot. Govt is everyone's answer to every problem.

 

[Bala Verde]

Except the companies quoted in the US are not evading taxes. What they are doing is perfectly legal.

Instead of blaming company exec's why not blame crooked politicians?

Oh yeah, I forgot. Govt is everyone's answer to every problem.

It's a result of rent-seeking behavior, or manipulating the environment to enrich oneself as opposed to adding real value. As a result, it produces a suboptimal allocation of resources. Also known as a market failure.

Is it then fair to say that the more companies lobby government, the less they truly believe in the free enterprise system? The market is a harsh, brutal place, which consistently separates the wheat from the chaff, innovation, competitive edge, progress etc. If you can't stand the heat... you start lobbying?

(Continuing that line of reasoning, the citizen's united decision did a disfavor to capitalism and the optimal functioning of markets, because it basically endorses rent-seeking behavior)

 

[redtreviso]

Except the companies quoted in the US are not evading taxes. What they are doing is perfectly legal.

Instead of blaming company exec's why not blame crooked politicians?

Oh yeah, I forgot. Govt is everyone's answer to every problem.

Their lobbyists wrote the loopholes themselves and gave them to the politicians to put into law..It is legal to buy up the debt of cancer patients and secure it with a CDS too scott.. There are all kinds of things that are almost "perfectly legal"...Like making sure you pollute to the maximum allowed or the maximum allowed plus the most that won't result in a fine..Wall street would want someone to go to the limit to be competitive you know?

and I figured you'd say taxes need to be cut so they won't have incentive to cheat.. Like if the speed limit was 55 everyone would drive 80 to make up for being late all the time.

 

[patricknd]

Their lobbyists wrote the loopholes themselves and gave them to the politicians to put into law..It is legal to buy up the debt of cancer patients and secure it with a CDS too scott.. There are all kinds of things that are almost "perfectly legal"...Like making sure you pollute to the maximum allowed or the maximum allowed plus the most that won't result in a fine..Wall street would want someone to go to the limit to be competitive you know?

and I figured you'd say taxes need to be cut so they won't have incentive to cheat.. Like if the speed limit was 55 everyone would drive 80 to make up for being late all the time.

and those poor politicians had no choice but to.... oh wait, they did have a choice. what they didn't have was courage

 

[VeloCity]

Just dandy.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-biggest-global-gases.html

Worse than the worst-case IPCC scenarios.

 

[redtreviso]

and those poor politicians had no choice but to.... oh wait, they did have a choice. what they didn't have was courage

I would like someone to take Gramm Leach Bliley apart and look at all the things that are a "get out of jail for free" card to the banking industry.. Corporate legal acts these days are crime immunity declarations making predatory behavior "perfectly legal"... Laws should be basically negative.. You may not murder--not a bunch of "you may murder ifs"..

 

[redtreviso]

 

[Anonymous]

Just dandy.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-biggest-global-gases.html

Worse than the worst-case IPCC scenarios.

Really?? Those guys aren't even climatologists. WTF do they know?

Wait, who's the current president? oh, wait... what?

China, the United States and India, the world's top producers of greenhouse gases.

It is a "monster" increase that is unheard of, said Gregg Marland, a professor of geology at Appalachian State University, who has helped calculate Department of Energy figures in the past.

Extra pollution in China and the U.S. account for more than half the increase in emissions last year, Marland said.

"It's a big jump," said Tom Boden, director of the Energy Department's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center at Oak Ridge National Lab. "From an emissions standpoint, the global financial crisis seems to be over."

I guess we're screwed.

 

[patricknd]

Wtf red, quoting goldwater? Are you okay?

 

[Anonymous]

Their lobbyists wrote the loopholes themselves and gave them to the politicians to put into law..It is legal to buy up the debt of cancer patients and secure it with a CDS too scott.. There are all kinds of things that are almost "perfectly legal"...Like making sure you pollute to the maximum allowed or the maximum allowed plus the most that won't result in a fine..Wall street would want someone to go to the limit to be competitive you know?

and I figured you'd say taxes need to be cut so they won't have incentive to cheat.. Like if the speed limit was 55 everyone would drive 80 to make up for being late all the time.

Do lobbyists sign bills into law? Um, no.

Water seeks it's own level, Red.

I asked before and no one bothered to answer... who is more at fault? The exec who offers the bribe or the politician who accepts it?

 

[blutto]

Do lobbyists sign bills into law? Um, no.

Water seeks it's own level, Red.

I asked before and no one bothered to answer... who is more at fault? The exec who offers the bribe or the politician who accepts it?

...this is a trick question?...isn't it?....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Anonymous]

It's a result of rent-seeking behavior, or manipulating the environment to enrich oneself as opposed to adding real value. As a result, it produces a suboptimal allocation of resources. Also known as a market failure.

Is it then fair to say that the more companies lobby government, the less they truly believe in the free enterprise system? The market is a harsh, brutal place, which consistently separates the wheat from the chaff, innovation, competitive edge, progress etc. If you can't stand the heat... you start lobbying?

(Continuing that line of reasoning, the citizen's united decision did a disfavor to capitalism and the optimal functioning of markets, because it basically endorses rent-seeking behavior)

Is it then fair to say that the more companies lobby government, the less they truly believe in the free enterprise system?

Not necessarily.. Everyone will negotiate the best deal they can get and every company is looking for a competitive advantage. Why compete fairly when you can buy your way to the top? And BTW, that is not a one way street.. someone has to accept and act on the bribe.

Most will take the straightest path to where they want to go.. or the path of least resistance.