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TRDean said:
I am going to tone it down a little...you don't have to if you don't want. Anyway, this country is great because there are opposing points of view. The right and left made this country great, not just one...and if the country goes down it will lay at the feet of both parties.

We both have one thing in common...we both love this country!!

Rock on!
Love of one's country has got nothing to do with it. In our discussion, it's all about one's ideological position.

And when it comes to the individual's relationship to society as a whole, where one thus doesn't see the collective as simply hostile to his goal of building a bigger castle for himself, but as a mass of humanity which responsibly takes care of itself (himself included) with some basic socialized programs: I think the European socialist-democracies have got it hands down on the "American dream" and the so called American "way of life" -which has in reality meant that the collective interests have been utterly subordinated to those of the few individuals at the helm of the capitalist machine

The collective without personal responsibility leads to a demotivated society as in the past Soviet communism, however the kind of savage Anglo-American capitalism for which the State doesn't exist leads to the very undemocratic tyranny of the individual of today (like those at the head of the corporations and financial markets), which has led the market based world (an not only in the West) to the kind of disaster at the financial markets we have today and, consequently, a most perverse way of public spending by the governments.

Anybody even with a modicum of critical thought can plainly see that.
 
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Stay on topic boys. You can PM each other off forum grounds and settle your differences privately, but stop polluting the threads with this garbage. Or, just put each other on your ignore lists and be done with it.
Wait a minute. You aint the boss here. So shove it!
 
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Anonymous

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ruamruam said:
The US does not have the richest poor people in the world. Western European countries and Canada have much better social security systems which help people at the bottom. If someone gets sick in the UK, Ireland, France etc. and go to a hospital they will be looked after. No public hospital, and the vast majority of people rely on the public system, is going to deny anybody treatment based on their income or whether they are insured or not. Health is rightly seen as a basic human right.

The US is one of the least poor friendly country in the developed world.

If I were poor, thankfully I'm not, I would not like to live in the US.

ruamruam
Not that anything I have to say will persuade you... in the US, no one is turned away needing medical care including millions of folks that are not citizens and in many cases not legally residing in this country.

The US is one of the least poor friendly countries in the world? I'd sure appreciate reading something to support this claim.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Not that anything I have to say will persuade you... in the US, no one is turned away needing medical care including millions of folks that are not citizens and in many cases not legally residing in this country.

The US is one of the least poor friendly countries in the world? I'd sure appreciate reading something to support this claim.
If you are not insured or do not have the money to pay for necessary treatment are you telling me that the US health services will do whatever is necessary to ensure you recover?

It that is the case why would anyone bother with private medical insurance?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
rhubroma said:
Love of one's country has got nothing to do with it. In our discussion, it's all about one's ideological position.

And when it comes to the individual's relationship to society as a whole, where one thus doesn't see the collective as simply hostile to his goal of building a bigger castle for himself, but as a mass of humanity which responsibly takes care of itself (himself included) with some basic socialized programs: I think the European socialist-democracies have got it hands down on the "American dream" and the so called American "way of life" -which has in reality meant that the collective interests have been utterly subordinated to those of the few individuals at the helm of the capitalist machine

The collective without personal responsibility leads to a demotivated society as in the past Soviet communism, however the kind of savage Anglo-American capitalism for which the State doesn't exist leads to the very undemocratic tyranny of the individual of today (like those at the head of the corporations and financial markets), which has led the market based world (an not only in the West) to the kind of disaster at the financial markets we have today and, consequently, a most perverse way of public spending by the governments.

Anybody even with a modicum of critical thought can plainly see that.
If you think the near financial collapse is entirely due to a greedy few corporate execs then you are simply wrong. Many different forces were at work including corrupt govt regulator/regulations that forced poor credit decisions that would otherwise never have been made.

"and the so called American "way of life" -which has in reality meant that the collective interests have been utterly subordinated to those of the few individuals at the helm of the capitalist machine"

As opposed to all of those incredibly honest and forthwright politicians who want nothing but the betterment of mankind? Government is your solution? Ok....
 
Jul 14, 2009
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I have enjoyed reading all these opinions. I have lived in Western Europe and the US. In the US in the W,E and S. I have found a non friendly immigrant feeling and opinions in all places. My friends from the UK and and AU all have strong feelings about what they feel is their squandered tax money. In the US if a woman gets pregnant and has a baby here we should provide care for her before the baby is born.Once a child is born with severe health problems it's too late to find out a small amount of vitamins and health care could have prevented lots of problems that will need attention and money from that day forward. Spending 300 or 400 dollars can save 10's of thousands in the long run.
 
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Anonymous

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ruamruam said:
If you are not insured or do not have the money to pay for necessary treatment are you telling me that the US health services will do whatever is necessary to ensure you recover?

It that is the case why would anyone bother with private medical insurance?

Yes.

Exactly the problem. By law, the emergency rooms in the US have to treat whomever comes in with whatever ailments they present. Once people realize this there is not much to compel them to buy private insurance except for an individual's desire to do the right thing. This is likely the single biggest reason why the average overnight stay in a local hospital in souther cal is over $9,000. For every one person who pays, five don't. This is a huge problem. IMHO, this is as much about folks choosing to forego the purchase of insurance because they know they will get care as it is an affordability issue.
 
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fatandfast said:
I have enjoyed reading all these opinions. I have lived in Western Europe and the US. In the US in the W,E and S. I have found a non friendly immigrant feeling and opinions in all places. My friends from the UK and and AU all have strong feelings about what they feel is their squandered tax money. In the US if a woman gets pregnant and has a baby here we should provide care for her before the baby is born.Once a child is born with severe health problems it's too late to find out a small amount of vitamins and health care could have prevented lots of problems that will need attention and money from that day forward. Spending 300 or 400 dollars can save 10's of thousands in the long run.
Obama will fix all this no problem.

keep it cool.
 
Scott SoCal said:
If you think the near financial collapse is entirely due to a greedy few corporate execs then you are simply wrong. Many different forces were at work including corrupt govt regulator/regulations that forced poor credit decisions that would otherwise never have been made.

"and the so called American "way of life" -which has in reality meant that the collective interests have been utterly subordinated to those of the few individuals at the helm of the capitalist machine"

As opposed to all of those incredibly honest and forthwright politicians who want nothing but the betterment of mankind? Government is your solution? Ok....
I don't quite get your points. If you have read other commets of mine, it would have been clear to you that the political indescretions have "allowed" the so-called finantial gurus to take us to this point.

And as to your second thought: what other viable sollution than government do we have? The mafia? Corporate lobbies? (Which, by the way, the latter two being unfortunately closer to the reality of the current situation.) A government is only as good as the political body of which it is comprised and, in democracy, that is entirely up to the people that voted for it. So every democratic state, in this sense, deserves the government it gets. America has theirs, Italy it's own. Etcetera. Unfortunately the only acceptable ideology in the mass American (and in now a considerable part of European society, so let's not take sides) society, has been one which has been fed on the same propaganda of deregulated corporate and financial capitalism. Because when the financial markets collapsed, what did we hear from the West's politicians and corporate lobbyists: "don't worry, Daddy's not dead, keep supporting us unwaiveringly as you always have. Let us take care of it. And oh, sorry, we will have to ask from you lots of money and that of your children, and that of your children's children, etcetera, to bail us and our system out."

If that's not ideology, I don't know what is!

The system sucks and so does the political (and cultural) mindset which has bread it. Unfortunatly there is no alternative but government to change the political mindset or the cultural one. But for that to happen it will probably take an alien invasion on an Orwellian scale to shock the masses into a different mindset.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Yes.

Exactly the problem. By law, the emergency rooms in the US have to treat whomever comes in with whatever ailments they present. Once people realize this there is not much to compel them to buy private insurance except for an individual's desire to do the right thing. This is likely the single biggest reason why the average overnight stay in a local hospital in souther cal is over $9,000. For every one person who pays, five don't. This is a huge problem. IMHO, this is as much about folks choosing to forego the purchase of insurance because they know they will get care as it is an affordability issue.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that you get proper healthcare in the emergency rooms in the US? What about if you need a hip replacement, a heart by pass or need specialised and expensive treatment for cancer, are you really trying to tell me that it is all available in an emergency room?

I am from Ireland but have lived at various times in England, Spain and the US and the US is the only country I have lived in where I literally could not afford to get seriously sick and had genuine fear as to what the treatment was going to cost. In Ireland, England and Spain when I needed treatment I was professionally looked after and not worried about what it would cost.

The one time I went to an emergency room in the US, I was very well looked after by the medical staff but they were working under very tight budgets and recommended that I seek further treatment which they couldn't provide. I couldn't afford to pay for these so went without like so many Americans. Luckily for me this had no long term consequences but for many people it does.

Titan_90 from this forum posted a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSyGD6uoR0) to a documentary about your medical system. I challenge you to watch that documentary and repeat what you have posted in your previous link. You just might learn something if you watch that documentary.

If you watch the documentary you might get to understand why the US health systems is the most expensive in the world but one of the least effective in the developed world.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
rhubroma said:
I don't quite get your points. If you have read other commets of mine, it would have been clear to you that the political indescretions have "allowed" the so-called finantial gurus to take us to this point.

And as to your second thought: what other viable sollution than government do we have? The mafia? Corporate lobbies? (Which, by the way, the latter two being unfortunately closer to the reality of the current situation.) A government is only as good as the political body of which it is comprised and, in democracy, that is entirely up to the people that voted for it. So every democratic state, in this sense, deserves the government it gets. America has theirs, Italy it's own. Etcetera. Unfortunately the only acceptable ideology in the mass American (and in now a considerable part of European society, so let's not take sides) society, has been one which has been fed on the same propaganda of deregulated corporate and financial capitalism. Because when the financial markets collapsed, what did we hear from the West's politicians and corporate lobbyists: "don't worry, Daddy's not dead, keep supporting us unwaiveringly as you always have. Let us take care of it. And oh, sorry, we will have to ask from you lots of money and that of your children, and that of your children's children, etcetera, to bail us and our system out."

If that's not ideology, I don't know what is!

The system sucks and so does the political (and cultural) mindset which has bread it. Unfortunatly there is no alternative but government to change the political mindset or the cultural one. But for that to happen it will probably take an alien invasion on an Orwellian scale to shock the masses into a different mindset.
Well we just disagree. I'm a free market guy. I don't belive in over-regulation. I don't believe any system is perfect. I believe in an educated population that has the tools needed to make good decisions. I believe in the marketplace of ideas. I believe in helping those that need it. I believe in attempting to build a better mousetrap. I believe there are fewer good politicians than clean cyclists. I have a monumental distrust of Government although I know one is needed on many levels. I can't think of anything the Govt of the US does efficiently and effectively. So why this country is running as fast as we can to Govt solutions is lost on me.
 
Scott SoCal said:
Well we just disagree. I'm a free market guy. I don't belive in over-regulation. I don't believe any system is perfect. I believe in an educated population that has the tools needed to make good decisions. I believe in the marketplace of ideas. I believe in helping those that need it. I believe in attempting to build a better mousetrap. I believe there are fewer good politicians than clean cyclists. I have a monumental distrust of Government although I know one is needed on many levels. I can't think of anything the Govt of the US does efficiently and effectively. So why this country is running as fast as we can to Govt solutions is lost on me.
///////////////////////////////
 
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Anonymous

Guest
ruamruam said:
Are you seriously trying to tell me that you get proper healthcare in the emergency rooms in the US? What about if you need a hip replacement, a heart by pass or need specialised and expensive treatment for cancer, are you really trying to tell me that it is all available in an emergency room?

I am from Ireland but have lived at various times in England, Spain and the US and the US is the only country I have lived in where I literally could not afford to get seriously sick and had genuine fear as to what the treatment was going to cost. In Ireland, England and Spain when I needed treatment I was professionally looked after and not worried about what it would cost.

The one time I went to an emergency room in the US, I was very well looked after by the medical staff but they were working under very tight budgets and recommended that I seek further treatment which they couldn't provide. I couldn't afford to pay for these so went without like so many Americans. Luckily for me this had no long term consequences but for many people it does.

Titan_90 from this forum posted a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSyGD6uoR0) to a documentary about your medical system. I challenge you to watch that documentary and repeat what you have posted in your previous link. You just might learn something if you watch that documentary.

If you watch the documentary you might get to understand why the US health systems is the most expensive in the world but one of the least effective in the developed world.
If your life is threatened by a medical emergency you receive care by law. If you need a joint replacement and you don't have insurance you can alway pull out your checkbook. At what point is a person responsible for themselves?

I don't take the documentary as gospel, no offense.
 
Scott SoCal said:
If your life is threatened by a medical emergency you receive care by law. If you need a joint replacement and you don't have insurance you can alway pull out your checkbook. At what point is a person responsible for themselves?

I don't take the documentary as gospel, no offense.
What if you cannot afford the treatment?

Did you watch the documentary, I never said you have to take it as gospel?
 
Jul 14, 2009
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There are already medical co-ops where a few hundred people send fifty dollars a month for 4 offices visits per year and 1 general physical.There very well be another option or 2 other than the 2 on the table right now, private or government. When you try and figure out why the owner of the coffee shop, car wash or local pub has to become a expert on health care there is no clear answers. When a guy wants to start a lawn mowing service is it realistic to tell him before he starts the mower to to set aside 400 dollars a month for every single employee and 600+ for anybody who has a wife, god help you if the guy needing a job trimming grass has a wife and a child or 2?. One thing is for sure if you show up to a job interview with a wedding ring on the guy without one has a better chance,just because of simple math. What about in the NE where they can't swim or sell ice cream all year. When the ice cream place closes so does your chance to have health care. In the US the guy selling beer for 12 bucks a glass won't be popular but if he has to provide medical care for his entire staff including the young guy washing glasses the price will be realistic. This all started after WW2 when companies tried to lure the best employees by giving them great benefits like paid vacations and ever better heath care . Most big companies have figured this out and offer health care to some full time employees but with creative management techniques and software they get lots of employees to work 35 hrs a week and keep them just under the full time qualifications. What about the 25 year old who wants to bust it during the summer and work part time during the school year while completing a degree, How do you get health care if you work part time by design ? We need people to be life guards and we when the sun comes out every spring we need things trimmed and cut, but they need health care all year.They say there are 45 million without coverage that is way too high for a country with a tradition of innovation. The payment can be made when you send in your taxes or when you buy a loaf of bread. Where I live they charge 8 and three quarter % right now raise it to 10 or 11 and we can get on to something else like nuke weapons or a cure for cancer or a US world champion, things that are important.
 
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Anonymous

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ruamruam said:
What if you cannot afford the treatment?

Did you watch the documentary, I never said you have to take it as gospel?
"There are people, unnamed, in high echelon positions that I could call at this moment and tell them to nullify... uh, the flacking, uh, medical industry."
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
If your life is threatened by a medical emergency you receive care by law. If you need a joint replacement and you don't have insurance you can alway pull out your checkbook. At what point is a person responsible for themselves?

I don't take the documentary as gospel, no offense.
Question. How many times do people from countries with public healthcare have to tell you that it is better than our system before you will experience the same sort of epiphany that you had with the Lance question?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
ruamruam said:
What if you cannot afford the treatment?

Did you watch the documentary, I never said you have to take it as gospel?
Round and round we go...

Keep this in mind. Whatever any Govt "gives" to one has been "taken" from another. I understand the need for govt. The question is how much do we take and from whom do we take in order for everyone to be looked after?
 
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Anonymous

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Scott SoCal said:
I find it iteresting and puzzling how the class warfare in this country has evolved. I'm not wealthy by any measurement but I am an employer and am in the cross-hairs of this current administration.

Just like millions of small business owners I have taken incredible financial risks to grow my company. I employ people, pay them more than a competitive wage, provide benefits including long term care insurance. I do what I can afford to do and as/if my business grows I will be in a position to do more. Yet, I am the problem in this country. I am selfish, short sighted, can't see the greater good, etc. I somehow don't pay my fair share. I present factual data from the IRS but accused of lying with statistics. I pay a ridiculous amount of my net income in taxes. I believe in lifting the bottom up, not tearing the top down. Our economy is not a zero sum game. As bad as our situation is currently we still have the richest poor people in the history of the world. Does this mean the situation should not be improved? No, but a little perspective would be helpful.

I care about my clients. During the last really bad wildfire scene here in southern cal (2007) I spent a week at the disater relief center helping folks that had been displaced from their homes. I did the same in 2003. I give money and time to multiple charities and foundations because I can and I should. I spend time and money with the local high school to mentor kids that are about to start secondary education and/or enter the job market. All of this does not make me better or worse than any one of you but for this, I and folks like me are demonized.

TFF, you are correct stating that the insurance market is not a true free market. It is so incredibly regulated that it barely functions. Catastrophic coverage policies are not offered not because the industry does not want to. There are hundreds of free market ideas that could be implemented but will never even be discussed because 1) they are not "free" as in re-distributed wealth, 2) require more contol to be placed in the people's hands rather than central govt, and 3) don't keep the political elite in office forever.

The idea that those who have succeeded financially in this country have somehow done it on the backs of others.... while this is likely true is some cases it certainly in not universally the case. Look at Microsoft, Dell Computers, Wal-Mart, Nordstroms, Starbucks... One could name thousands of first generation wealth creators that provide millions of jobs and untold societal benefits yet all of those companies are targeted by the left for various reasons. I'm left to scratch my head because for the life of me I don't undersand why intelligent people can't seem to figure out what the logical conclusion of these collectivist policies will be especially when there is plenty of history to suggest exactly what will happen.
Microsoft- Anti-trust infringement nightmare there. Not a good example of you small business line of thought considering they aggressively killed competition and promoted an inferior product in many ways.

Wal_Mart- Shut down more small businesses than any tax code in history.

I am all for small business. I am not for the concentration of the wealth of any industry into so few hands that prices and wages are dictated not by market forces, but by sheer greed.

The logical history of collectivist policies, mixed with market principles has been the rise of industrial nations all over the world that produce a greater amount of wealth for the greatest number of people in the history of the world.

Again, name one Libertarian based economy that has a GDP comparable to them. I always hear conservatives talk as though this is all common sense, based on provable examples. Problem is that they don't have any REAL WORLD examples. Talk about ivory towers.

Lastly, also note that the people with real wealth allow a certain amount of command functions to be placed upon markets. They learned that angry mobs are not the best route to greater wealth. We are allowed scraps from the table. I will take them because I try not to base my life on monetary policy. I will however tell you what I see as the truth, and sorry, but the combined history of mankind says that a mixed economic system is the way to go. Sometimes that means new government programs.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
Round and round we go...

Keep this in mind. Whatever any Govt "gives" to one has been "taken" from another. I understand the need for govt. The question is how much do we take and from whom do we take in order for everyone to be looked after?
And whatever our health insurance companies "gives" to one has been taken from all of us except before they give it back they keep a very healthy (pun intended) portion for shareholder's profits, CEO's golden parachutes, agents commissions and so on and so on.
The ERs just pass on the cost of all the free treatments in the form of health care that is so overpriced that nobody but the very wealthy can afford anything without insurance but with it care is very poor and slow to respond when they decide you are even covered to begin with.
 
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Hugh Januss said:
Question. How many times do people from countries with public healthcare have to tell you that it is better than our system before you will experience the same sort of epiphany that you had with the Lance question?
Answer? I don't believe this to be true.

I had an epiphany with LA based on evidence. Not based in feelings. Have you never heard of the lack of cancer care in Canada, the end of life panels in the UK, the incredible wait times for pediatric care in both countries?

You are diluting yourself if you think big govt is the answer. Let's just look at how well social security, or medicare is managed. This govt is already into healthcare and medicare is near insolvency. Why would you suppose this is?
 
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Hugh Januss said:
Question. How many times do people from countries with public healthcare have to tell you that it is better than our system before you will experience the same sort of epiphany that you had with the Lance question?
A sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie but I am not eating the filthy animal.

If you say the public healthcare system is better that must make it the truth. So preach it Hugh.

But remember.

keep it cool.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Riley Martin said:
A sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie but I am not eating the filthy animal.

If you say the public healthcare system is better that must make it the truth. So preach it Hugh.

But remember.

keep it cool.
You could very well be the "Britsh Pro Cycling" of social issues.
 
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Anonymous

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Scott SoCal said:
Answer? I don't believe this to be true.

I had an epiphany with LA based on evidence. Not based in feelings. Have you never heard of the lack of cancer care in Canada, the end of life panels in the UK, the incredible wait times for pediatric care in both countries?

You are diluting yourself if you think big govt is the answer. Let's just look at how well social security, or medicare is managed. This govt is already into healthcare and medicare is near insolvency. Why would you suppose this is?
Go say you are taking it away and see what you get. One other thing, taking into account the BEST statistics, we are somewhere around 17th in terms of overall health care.

...insolvency. Why would you suppose this is? It is because politicians don't have the testicular fortitude to fund it sufficiently. And that IS the real answer.

Again, show me the real world example of what you suggest.

I do respect the difficulties of owning a small business. My wife has one. I also believe that our government, so long as we can remain financially viable (and we can regardless of the fear mongering rhetoric of the far right), public services are part of the deal.
 
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Anonymous

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Riley Martin said:
A sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie but I am not eating the filthy animal.

If you say the public healthcare system is better that must make it the truth. So preach it Hugh.

But remember.

keep it cool.
We are in 17th place. It is easy to show you several that are better. But you can do your own heavy lifting.
 
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