World Politics

[blutto]

.... or maybe this is the same Scott Locklin that writes for the Alternative Right and he was up to no good...
Cheers

...did a bit more digging and yes indeed that is the same Scott ( a fact conspicuous by its absence on the site that the article was originally presented on....oh and btw Scott is also a published misogynist....so a well rounded Wrong Winger... ) and I have to tip my hat to him because that is some mighty fine subterfuge he put together...best file under Wrong Wing BS and drop in a very deep hole....

...btw, and please call me a conspiracy nut if makes you feel better, ( but do note that historical analysis is driven in large by the question, who says what about whom and why a.k.a The Four W's) but I can't help but find it kinda odd that this finely tuned crap was aimed at that particular subject by someone of that particular persuasion ....

Cheers

 

[blackcat]

Im no expert in the us history, but was that what the general patton warned about ?

George Washington riffed on this with a warning in his farwell address. And Thomas Jefferson in his inauguration also mentioned "intangling alliances". So what Patton would have said, would have had its antecedents here.

 

[RetroActive]

Sam Harris on Israel. He hedges or qualifies his views considerably, and I think he ignores the fact that when you're militarily superior to your enemy, it's much easier to act a little restrained. I don't think you can cleanly separate one's public statements vs. their enemies from their military capabilities. If the power balance were reversed, it's not clear to me that Muslims would act out what they actually say--though you can't blame Israel for believing that they would.

Have you ever read the Talmud?

As to the rest of the quoted bits : who has done what with regards to secular, nationalistic muslim movements/gov'ts? Who, if not outright creating, certainly supported Hamas (as a counterpoint to the PLO) - and for what reasons?

Disingenuous propaganda.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Flares, explosions, drones overhead, presumed ground attack going on, more children accidentally killed today - by Hamas misfires, according to the IDF.

Something I came across today that brings the horrific reality home.

They call us now.
Before they drop the bombs.
The phone rings
and someone who knows my first name
calls and says in perfect Arabic
“This is David.”
And in my stupor of sonic booms and glass shattering symphonies
still smashing around in my head
I think "Do I know any Davids in Gaza?"
They call us now to say
Run.
You have 58 seconds from the end of this message.
Your house is next.
They think of it as some kind of war time courtesy.
It doesn’t matter that
there is nowhere to run to.
It means nothing that the borders are closed
and your papers are worthless
and mark you only for a life sentence
in this prison by the sea
and the alleyways are narrow
and there are more human lives
packed one against the other
more than any other place on earth
Just run.
We aren’t trying to kill you.
It doesn’t matter that
you can’t call us back to tell us
the people we claim to want aren’t in your house
that there’s no one here
except you and your children
who were cheering for Argentina
sharing the last loaf of bread for this week
counting candles left in case the power goes out.
It doesn’t matter that you have children.
You live in the wrong place
and now is your chance to run
to nowhere.
It doesn’t matter
that 58 seconds isn’t long enough
to find your wedding album
or your son’s favorite blanket
or your daughter’s almost completed college application
or your shoes
or to gather everyone in the house.
It doesn’t matter what you had planned.
It doesn’t matter who you are
Prove you’re human.
Prove you stand on two legs.
Run.

Running Orders by Lena Khalaf Tuffaha

 

[Arnout]

Flares, explosions, drones overhead, presumed ground attack going on, more children accidentally killed today - by Hamas misfires, according to the IDF.

Yeah its incredible how effective these rockets suddenly are and how many of them seem to misfire the past week

 

[ChrisE]

George Washington riffed on this with a warning in his farwell address. And Thomas Jefferson in his inauguration also mentioned "intangling alliances". So what Patton would have said, would have had its antecedents here.

Patton advocated going to war with the USSR right after the fall of Germany.

 

[blutto]

....you know I swear I've seen this behaviour somewhere else right down to the "they did it themselves to discredit us" thingee....but I just can't pin it down...any ideas anyone?...

"DONETSK, Ukraine (AP) — At least one person has been killed after three shells hit an apartment block in the center of the main separatist rebel stronghold of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine.

An Associated Press reporter on the scene saw gaping holes in the side of apartment block after it was fired on.

Around 50 people took refuge in a nearby underground car park and the area was heavy with the smell of household gas.

Although Donetsk is the main stronghold of rebel commanders, the government has refrained to date from attacks on the center of the city.

Rebels accuse the government of using heavy artillery against residential neighborhoods. Ukraine's government says it has banned the use of artillery in residential areas and in turn says separatists target civilians to discredit the army."

...sorta remember someone here talking about such things...like its close, real close...Retro maybe?...

Cheers

 

[python]

did i rush to exclude the air-to-air yesterday ?

according to an email from a friend, this news could be a very significant bit ...currently top officer of the russian federation's air defense /land forces - major general mikael krush - gave interview to a specialized publication - military industrial courier. unlike his potential agenda, his knowledge of any russian air defense gear can not be doubted.

..anyway, in a lengthy interview filled with technical details, he categorically states that the buk system could not take down the airliner as every single source so far has indicated, that is, by an explosion from below the plane...his arguments could be condensed as follows:

a) when fired in anger, the buk missile is designed to fly past the target. it then makes a sharp turn above the target and detonates some short distance above, showering the maximum possible target area with specially shaped projectiles. the reasons for this method of detonation could be to deceive the target's pilot that the missile has missed and, more importantly, to disable more vulnerable parts that are typically protected/armoured only from a projectile flying upwards...
b) he said that to-date, there are no witnesses who saw a typical plume the missile's engine would inevitably leave behind. the trace is highly visible and stays for some time. conversely, there are several locals who saw a jet besides the stricken airliner.
c) the penetration holes left by the buk missile shrapnel are not round and can not be mistaken by a buk system expert. none of the images in the western msm show the penetration of a buk shrapnel.

the nyc expert is sure it was a down/below explosion as their graphic and images show
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html

(many images there, i could not be bothered to copy them here)

...if the russians can prove this with more indirect or direct evidence, the case against the ukrainian provocation can be as firm as any reasonable person can take.

 

[fatandfast]

I think it is important for the Israeli military to be able to avenge the death of those hitch hikers. So what that there was no trial or any specific person wanted for the crime.
This is definitely keeping the names of those 3 killed in the news so nobody forgets.
I hope the guys launching the bombs and killing the civilians feel pride and purpose for their actions. They should really be proud, who knows about those kids at the UN school or playing on the beach, they could have something to do with the kidnapping and murders. Never can be too careful. God bless everybody

 

[blackcat]

for starters, thanks for the contribution python

the reasons for this method of detonation could be to deceive the target's pilot that the missile has missed and, more importantly, to disable more vulnerable parts that are typically protected/armoured only from a projectile flying upwards...

do planes and jets genuinely have an undercarriage to withstand a hit from a missile with a warhead?

a reason as "deception of pilot" is redundant. If the missile is in vicinity, the pilot is as good as dead and the pilot being hoodwinked (deceived) is neither here nor there.

but I am curious to hear if any aircraft could withstand a successful strike to they undercarriage.

intuition would tell me, that a targeting weapon on a plane, has a smaller strike range, the undercarriage, than a (spherical) radius of 50 metres. P'raps 100 metres. And indeed the top of the plane is likely to be more susceptible to a strike. So my intuition would place this as the design function (motive) of the weapon. It has greater functional utility by seeking to strike at a more susceptible region of the plane with an explosion that does not have to hit a more accurate target (undercarriage).

Also, I assume these weapons were not designed for use against cargo planes or civilian airliners.

here is my devil's advocate wrt your source. Your expert is probably correct in everything. however:
if the weapon is designed to hit fighter jets and other military aircraft (but not cargo plane) with advanced capabilities to evade incoming flak/missile. Then it makes sense for the design of this weapon/missile to explode in the vicinity like flak.

but if the missile has honed into the bottom of an unwieldy civilian plane, could it not just strike the undercarriage?

and somehow, a missile does not seem to be a technology to do a u-turn with the agility of a F1 car.

 

[hrotha]

I've spent some time reading Israeli newspapers online the last few days. Granted, most of the more liberal Ha'aretz is behind a paywall, but still, this was a very depressing exercise.

 

[Jagartrott]

Only 4% of Israeli's found that too much force was used in the Gaza bombings - according to a recent poll.

 

[blutto]

....more of that pin-point accuracy and careful planning at work again ( and btw there is a growing sense that those terms cannot be used ironically in this situation....see J's post above ... )...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gaza conflict: At least 15 killed in shell attack on UN school during 2nd night of bombardment

Source: The Independent

At least 15 people have been killed in shelling on a UN school in a Gaza overnight where hundreds of Palestinians had taken refuge from a bombardment of strikes.

Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra said another 90 Palestinians were wounded in the tank shells and air strikes on houses and the school in the Jabaliya refugee camp.

The death toll has now reached over 1,250 Palestinians and 56 Israelis since 8 July. Most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians.

Fayez Abu Dayeh, the principal of the school, said several tank shells hit the school compound at about 4.30am, two of which hit classrooms and a bathroom. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ead-in-shell-attack-on-un-school-9636681.html

Cheers

 

[Bustedknuckle]

according to an email from a friend, this news could be a very significant bit ...currently top officer of the russian federation's air defense /land forces - major general mikael krush - gave interview to a specialized publication - military industrial courier. unlike his potential agenda, his knowledge of any russian air defense gear can not be doubted.

..anyway, in a lengthy interview filled with technical details, he categorically states that the buk system could not take down the airliner as every single source so far has indicated, that is, by an explosion from below the plane...his arguments could be condensed as follows:

a) when fired in anger, the buk missile is designed to fly past the target. it then makes a sharp turn above the target and detonates some short distance above, showering the maximum possible target area with specially shaped projectiles. the reasons for this method of detonation could be to deceive the target's pilot that the missile has missed and, more importantly, to disable more vulnerable parts that are typically protected/armoured only from a projectile flying upwards...
b) he said that to-date, there are no witnesses who saw a typical plume the missile's engine would inevitably leave behind. the trace is highly visible and stays for some time. conversely, there are several locals who saw a jet besides the stricken airliner.
c) the penetration holes left by the buk missile shrapnel are not round and can not be mistaken by a buk system expert. none of the images in the western msm show the penetration of a buk shrapnel.

the nyc expert is sure it was a down/below explosion as their graphic and images show
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html

(many images there, i could not be bothered to copy them here)

...if the russians can prove this with more indirect or direct evidence, the case against the ukrainian provocation can be as firm as any reasonable person can take.

I am SURE a Russian Major General, speaking to the media, about the shootdown, will tell the absolute truth, and not coverup anything his drunk cowboys did..right...

a)-that's poppycock..traveling at the speed it is, it's not possible to make a hard turn, then be above the A/C to detonate 'above it', and actually hit it..it's going mach 3 plus, with teeny little control surfaces.
b)-the exhaust plume WAS observed by the US
c)-there are plenty of round holes in the A/C

People are such lemmings...

 

[blutto]

I am SURE a Russian Major General, speaking to the media, about the shootdown, will tell the absolute truth, and not coverup anything his drunk cowboys did..right...

a)-that's poppycock..traveling at the speed it is, it's not possible to make a hard turn, then be above the A/C to detonate 'above it', and actually hit it..it's going mach 3 plus, with teeny little control surfaces.
b)-the exhaust plume WAS observed by the US
c)-there are plenty of round holes in the A/C

People are such lemmings...

...the following from a bog standard text on guided missile design and performance...

"The terminal phase of guidance brings the missile
into contact or close proximity with the target. The last
phase of guidance must have quick response to ensure
a high degree of accuracy. Quite often the guidance
system causes the missile to perform what is best
described as an “up-and-over” maneuver during the
terminal phase. Essentially, the missile flies higher than
the target and descends on it at intercept."

....lemmimgs indeed...

Cheers

 

[Bustedknuckle]

...the following from a text that looks at guided missile design and performance...

"The terminal phase of guidance brings the missile
into contact or close proximity with the target. The last
phase of guidance must have quick response to ensure
a high degree of accuracy. Quite often the guidance
system causes the missile to perform what is best
described as an “up-and-over” maneuver during the
terminal phase. Essentially, the missile flies higher than
the target and descends on it at intercept."

....lemmimgs indeed...

Cheers

Aim-54 was 'up and over'(flew F-14s for 7 years), what you quoted is 'up and over', this, "the buk missile is designed to fly past the target. it then makes a sharp turn above the target and detonates some short distance above, showering the maximum possible target area with specially shaped projectiles", isn't 'up and over', and is not possible with the SA-11 or any other SAM.

What's the issue, why is so many want to NOT point at the drunk gang members, also known as the 'pro Russian Ukrainian Force Separatists'?

And of course you believe a Russian General..of course, why not?

 

[python]

for starters, thanks for the contribution python


do planes and jets genuinely have an undercarriage to withstand a hit from a missile with a warhead?

a reason as "deception of pilot" is redundant. If the missile is in vicinity, the pilot is as good as dead and the pilot being hoodwinked (deceived) is neither here nor there.

but I am curious to hear if any aircraft could withstand a successful strike to they undercarriage.

intuition would tell me, that a targeting weapon on a plane, has a smaller strike range, the undercarriage, than a (spherical) radius of 50 metres. P'raps 100 metres. And indeed the top of the plane is likely to be more susceptible to a strike. So my intuition would place this as the design function (motive) of the weapon. It has greater functional utility by seeking to strike at a more susceptible region of the plane with an explosion that does not have to hit a more accurate target (undercarriage).

Also, I assume these weapons were not designed for use against cargo planes or civilian airliners.

here is my devil's advocate wrt your source. Your expert is probably correct in everything. however:
if the weapon is designed to hit fighter jets and other military aircraft (but not cargo plane) with advanced capabilities to evade incoming flak/missile. Then it makes sense for the design of this weapon/missile to explode in the vicinity like flak.

but if the missile has honed into the bottom of an unwieldy civilian plane, could it not just strike the undercarriage?

and somehow, a missile does not seem to be a technology to do a u-turn with the agility of a F1 car.

keep in mind, the important aspect of the general's claim was that the buk missiles strike from above rather than below or a side, as virtually all western sources speculated backing it by the mountains of images, fake or real. another important aspect of the claim is that it is rather drastic and can be easily confirmed or rejected by dozens of nations operating the system...including the russian officials themselves. yet, the russians said nothing of the sort at their military briefing, though, imo, it would be a a strong argument for them if true.

regarding your questions, i am no expert, but will try to address where i happen to read or hear reasonable sources...

...it is a known fact that many military planes, particularly attack copters and attack planes like american a-10 do have protection around pilot and the vital parts like fuel system. whether other military planes have such protection, i dont know but would reasonably speculate they do as it makes sense to protect them against stray bullets etc.. the degree o protection must be a function of a plane's mission/role and a trade off btwn its engine lift, weight and its designed-in weapons payload.

...it is not correct that if a missile is in vicinity the pilot is doomed. a civil pilot, almost sure, but a military one, particularly an ace in an agile fighter, far from... i read and saw several documentaries, where pilots are trained to outmaneuver missiles. each modern military plane has a multi-level alarm system that alerts him to whether and when a hostile radar has locked on him and if and when a missile was fired. the longer range is a particular missile, the longer time is available for a pilot's reaction. sure, a well trained nato pilot would hardly relax if he made a visual contact with a missile flying past him.

..as to a missile's agility and it's ability to do a u-turn, again, i am speculating, it is not a tight u but a wide arc with considerable climbing well above a target. the buk missile is relatively small and (after the engine exhaustion) relatively light being only 1/3 the launch mass. i do not see it as technical impossibility to design a guidance system with the appropriate control surfaces. after all, limited engine vectoring together with powerful flaps isn't a big secret...but again, i am not an expert.

 

[blutto]

Aim-54 was 'up and over'(flew F-14s for 7 years), what you quoted is 'up and over', this, "the buk missile is designed to fly past the target. it then makes a sharp turn above the target and detonates some short distance above, showering the maximum possible target area with specially shaped projectiles", isn't 'up and over', and is not possible with the SA-11 or any other SAM.

What's the issue, why is so many want to NOT point at the drunk gang members, also known as the 'pro Russian Ukrainian Force Separatists'?

And of course you believe a Russian General..of course, why not?

...its not that I want to believe "drunk gang members" its that I don't believe the other side which has such a long history of lying badly thru their teeth and thus have proved they simply cannot be trusted on anything ( and they seem to be very short on evidence of any sort )....add in the "drunk fascist thugs" that are this week's "freedom loving" ally and you have a situation that is way beyond even a glimmer of trustworthiness...hell they can't even keep their stories straight...

"The U.S. government’s case also must overcome public remarks by senior U.S. military personnel at variance with the Obama administration’s claims of certainty. For instance, the Washington Post’s Craig Whitlock reported last Saturday that Air Force Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, U.S. commander of NATO forces in Europe, said last month that “We have not seen any of the [Russian] air-defense vehicles across the border yet.”

Whitlock also reported that “Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said defense officials could not point to specific evidence that an SA-11 [Buk] surface-to-air missile system had been transported from Russia into eastern Ukraine.”

...and add in the further fact that the better journalists and commentators, who have the advantage of actually being correct in their judgements and forecasts over the last several decades, are discounting "your story" as just more fabricated nonsense and its easy to see why a lot of people are not automatically going where your finger is pointing...read, we are sick of the BS that your sides proven stock in trade and will discount it until proven otherwise, and "trust me" just doesn't cut it...

....and btw as long as we are asking questions how do you substantiate your " claim of certainty" about the separatists being drunk and gang members....and btw for a small bunch of drunken gang members they certainly are making life pretty miserable for the forces of the glorious revolution which would on the face of it look pretty strange...

....and further btw the earlier bit I quoted was not referring to any particular missile system it specifically said...

"The purpose of this chapter is to familiarize you
with the basic principles associated with guided
missiles..."

Cheers

 

[Bustedknuckle]

...its not that I want to believe "drunk gang members" its that the other side has such a long history of lying badly thru their teeth and thus have proved they simply cannot be trusted on anything....add in the "drunk fascist thugs" that are this week's "freedom loving" ally and you have a situation that is way beyond even a glimmer of trustworthiness...hell they can't even keep their stories straight,see below...

"The U.S. government’s case also must overcome public remarks by senior U.S. military personnel at variance with the Obama administration’s claims of certainty. For instance, the Washington Post’s Craig Whitlock reported last Saturday that Air Force Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, U.S. commander of NATO forces in Europe, said last month that “We have not seen any of the [Russian] air-defense vehicles across the border yet.”

Whitlock also reported that “Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said defense officials could not point to specific evidence that an SA-11 [Buk] surface-to-air missile system had been transported from Russia into eastern Ukraine.”

....and btw as long as we are asking questions how do you substantiate your " claim of certainty" about the separatists being drunk and gang members....and btw for a small bunch of drunken gang members they certainly are making life pretty miserable for the forces of the glorious revolution which would on the face of it look pretty strange...

Cheers

Ya know these are track mounted..as in can drive anywhere.

Pretty easy when you are supplemented by front line Russian military members...and their equipment IN Ukraine.

And-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ground_Forces#Army_Air_Defence

Captured along with a lot of other stuff.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I have to say that I'm much more wound up by the slaughter of civilians going on in Gaza, which I'm pretty sure can be justifiably labeled as war crimes by now, than with what's happening in Ukraine. I find it incredible how many American 'liberals' seem to take leave of their common sense, and their basic humanity as soon as 'Israel' is mentioned. And it really fcuking p!sses me off.

 

[blutto]

I have to say that I'm much more wound up by the slaughter of civilians going on in Gaza, which I'm pretty sure can be justifiably labeled as war crimes by now, than with what's happening in Ukraine. I find it incredible how many American 'liberals' seem to take leave of their common sense, and their basic humanity as soon as 'Israel' is mentioned. And it really fcuking p!sses me off.

....have to agree with you on this wholeheartedly....

...and not to in any put down or marginalize that sentiment but I would like to take this opportunity to put something into perspective....

"I have to say that I'm as wound up by the slaughter of civilians going on in The Ukraine, which I'm pretty sure can be justifiably labeled as war crimes by now, as with what's happening in Gaza. I find it incredible how many American 'liberals' seem to take leave of their common sense, and their basic humanity as soon as 'Russia' is mentioned. And it really fcuking p!sses me off."

Cheers

 

[Merckx index]

Staunch supporters of Israel becoming highly critical of its policies:

Israel's problems aren't easy to solve — and Israel cannot solve them without moderate leadership in Palestine and the region. But in recent years Israel seems to be making its problems insoluble. The continued growth of the settlements is morally indefensible, but it's also deeply counterproductive: every Israeli home built in the West Bank makes a two-state solution that much harder. Israel's peace movement has collapsed, and its government has become more bellicose and aggressive: Avigdor Lieberman's presence in the cabinet is painful proof that Israel's fear is outpacing its hope.

Netanyahu and his coalition have no strategy of their own except endless counterinsurgency against the backdrop of a steadily deteriorating diplomatic position within the world and an inexorable demographic decline. The operation in Gaza is not Netanyahu's strategy in excess; it is Netanyahu's strategy in its entirety. The liberal Zionist, two-state vision with which I identify, which once commanded a mainstream position within Israeli political life, has been relegated to a left-wing rump within it.

Time is not on Israel's side. At some point, something will likely happen to weaken its position, while it is unlikely that anything will happen to strengthen its position ... Looking at the relative risks, making a high-risk deal with the Palestinians would seem prudent in the long run. But nations do not make decisions on such abstract calculations. Israel will bet on its ability to stay strong. From a political standpoint, it has no choice. The Palestinians will bet on the long game. They have no choice. And in the meantime, blood will periodically flow.

 

[python]

good observations there, blutto, on the reflective logic...

but this post is about something different that intrigued me earlier

...as to a missile's agility and it's ability to do a u-turn, again, i am speculating, it is not a tight u but a wide arc with considerable climbing well above a target. the buk missile is relatively small and (after the engine exhaustion) relatively light being only 1/3 the launch mass. i do not see it as technical impossibility to design a guidance system with the appropriate control surfaces. after all, limited engine vectoring together with powerful flaps isn't a big secret..

i performed some quick research using absolutely open sources on how missiles, including the surface-to-air ones, are guided and maneuvered...

it turns out, a buk missile that a russian general assures typically attacks its air targets from above, is more than capable both in theory (which is a basic Newtonian physics) and practice (for which hundreds of patents are available on-line) to perform a quick up-down terminal homing maneuver even at velocities close to m3

...specifically, most sources place the buk missile maneuverability at about 24g. for a comparison, the most agile fighters top at around 7 or 8g, otherwise, either its pilot blacks out or the plane's structure disintegrates. it is not difficult to calculate that at a given residual treminal weight (about 200 kg), air velocity (about 2.7m) elevation (about 10k and air drag (an unknown but easily estimated) the buk missile can turn 180 degr at a vertical radius shorter than 1km.

this agility, as i properly speculated, is achievable by the missiles motor thrust vectoring...here's an example of a patent for one of the variants:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4131246

the russkie general was likely having an agenda, but unlike some high flyers, he sticks to what he knows and what can be checked out, at least with my amateurish approach.

 

[Amsterhammer]

....have to agree with you on this wholeheartedly....

...and not to in any put down or marginalize that sentiment but I would like to take this opportunity to put something into perspective....

"I have to say that I'm as wound up by the slaughter of civilians going on in The Ukraine, which I'm pretty sure can be justifiably labeled as war crimes by now, as with what's happening in Gaza. I find it incredible how many American 'liberals' seem to take leave of their common sense, and their basic humanity as soon as 'Russia' is mentioned. And it really fcuking p!sses me off."

Cheers

I totally take your point, and agree with the sentiment in principle. What makes Gaza worse though, imho, is the fact that those poor people literally have absolutely nowhere to flee to. They are penned into a gigantic, open air prison.

 

[RetroActive]

Time-Lapse video of Israeli military completely flattening a Gaza neighborhood over the course of an hour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdoYZ1-9XsM