- Dec 7, 2010
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The Hitch said:
I read on here that some call putin a drunken russian. He is more like a Oprichnina.
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I read on here that some call putin a drunken russian. He is more like a Oprichnina.
- Aug 9, 2012
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blutto said:
Since you asked the answer is wild eyed propaganda.
The stuff after the dotted line is so ridiculous it's funny. Do the people who write this stuff really believe people are dumb enough to still buy that Ukrainians are Nazis propaganda stuff? It's so old. The extreme right getting something like 2% of the vote in the last election might be an indication how little basis that argument has in reality.
Hope this helps.
Alexis Tsipras' Open Letter To Germany: What You Were Never Told About Greece
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...germany-what-you-were-never-told-about-greece
I haven't really been following Alexis Tsipras or Syriza too much but I've been listening to Yanis Varoufakis for a few years and these words aren't new. So now this message has a platform and microphone, could be interesting. Will the markets crush them though?
Anyway, many of the questions that you folks are asking have been posed, and contemplated out loud by Varoufakis for years. I see he's being dubbed 'Dr. Doom' by the press: deal with reality and you're too grim, delusion is still the best cure apparently.
Yanis Varoufakis: Confessions of an Erratic Marxist /// 14th May 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uNIgDmqwI
He's always sounded like a reasonable fellow to me, a pragmatist with a quick wit.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...germany-what-you-were-never-told-about-greece
I haven't really been following Alexis Tsipras or Syriza too much but I've been listening to Yanis Varoufakis for a few years and these words aren't new. So now this message has a platform and microphone, could be interesting. Will the markets crush them though?
Anyway, many of the questions that you folks are asking have been posed, and contemplated out loud by Varoufakis for years. I see he's being dubbed 'Dr. Doom' by the press: deal with reality and you're too grim, delusion is still the best cure apparently.
Yanis Varoufakis: Confessions of an Erratic Marxist /// 14th May 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uNIgDmqwI
He's always sounded like a reasonable fellow to me, a pragmatist with a quick wit.
Buffalo Soldier said:
OOOHHH...you really got me there. The problem for you is that anyone with two functioning brain cells can see straight away how false your assertion (about the main expert) is.
Yes, it's a documentary filled with scientists presenting both sides of the debate. If those that are questioning the hypothesis are correct it represents a massive failure, particularly for those who have been misdiagnosed with AIDS while their real disease has been neglected. Not to mention all those that have been killed by the cure for a non-existent disease. Think about what this has meant for dealing with third world poverty as well, a complete travesty but a profitable industry was born, so hey, it's not all bad.
- Apr 2, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I think, Alpe, what's going to happen entirely depends on how much the loaning institutions are willing to concede Greece.
Retro's link to Greek economist and now economic minister, Yanis Varoufakis, was very interesting. It made me think just how much the laws of finance and banking are no more of course than profit driven human inventions. In other words they are not divine and nonnegotiable, or at least they are nonnegotiable only in so far as the strong powers of finance and banking can exact the necessary pressure to bear in subjugating all those who oppose their will. I'm not, however, so naive (or idealistic) as to not realize that within acceptable parameters profiting on loans, and the responsible honoring of repayment are themselves necessary components of civil coexistance: in short, being in a civilized society. However, when it becomes pure usury and effectively punitive then the civilized component is replaced by tyranny.
It must thus always be recalled that these institutions are human, that like humans they can be ruthless, stubborn and implacable (especially given that money dealing is their very nature). Yet it simply isn't moral that an entire country, no matter what circumstances brought it there, can go into default: which means a humanitarian crisis, beyond a social crisis and even before being a financial and economic travesty. The strong powers, however, if left unchallenged, might actually accept the humanitarian crisis just to get every cent the terms of finance says they have coming to them. Naturally this is immoral however, which was Varoufakis' most cogent point.
Let us, therefore, remember that after WWI Germany was on the brink of such crises imposed by the intransigence of a vindictive, however comprehensible, political-financial order of the victors; but all this produced was the rise of a psychopath and the Nazi regime that brought Europe and the world into an even more catastrophic war. For this reason Germany was wisely treated differently in 1953, even if there were even greater cause for outrage and bitterness. That clemency has kept Europe basically at peace, however, ever since.
The point is that the system needs a governance to work, but such rules and terms of repayment should never become instruments of tyranny or oppression.
The Greece dilemma is putting to the test a model of civilization, for which if the humanitarian crisis is allowed to happen, just to permit the lenders full recuperation (principle and interest) of their loans (which are really investments); then it will be the model of civilization itself that will have failed.
If that happens it is impossible to say what the consequences will be, though any time a question of morality is placed in crisis, the results have never been historically fortuitous that's for certain.
rhubroma said:
Varoufakis talks about the irrelevancy of the mathematical economic models in the last link I posted. Economics is just another story we're telling ourselves and as you said it doesn't have to be an exercise in flagellation.
Another sensible chap:
http://moneyweek.com/paul-hodges-interview-the-great-unwinding/#disqus_thread
- Jul 4, 2009
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RetroActive said:
...here is another article from the Zero Hedge site that may cause some heads to spin...though given what the following quote says it may be understandable as the current situation and its gatekeepers do not seem to offer anything remotely close to a winning move...
" So, let me be frank: Greece's debt is currently unsustainable and will never be serviced, especially while Greece is being subjected to continuous fiscal waterboarding. The insistence in these dead-end policies, and in the denial of simple arithmetic, costs the German taxpayer dearly while, at once, condemning to a proud European nation to permanent indignity. What is even worse: In this manner, before long the Germans turn against the Greeks, the Greeks against the Germans and, unsurprisingly, the European Ideal suffers catastrophic losses."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-27/greece-begins-great-pivot-toward-russia
Cheers
- Mar 11, 2009
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I like the way Tsipiras refers to his plan for a New Deal for Greece. Interesting choice of term.
I think the situation in Greece has really turned some macro economic thinking on it's head about what is the value of goods produced and services rendered, versus the amount of actual debt heaped on them, while considering people's lifestyles. For example, one could argue that if they had just stuck with austerity, they would have dug their way out of the hole they were in, eventually, which means it could take decades, where millions of people live in misery waiting for a day they'd never see.
I think the situation in Greece has really turned some macro economic thinking on it's head about what is the value of goods produced and services rendered, versus the amount of actual debt heaped on them, while considering people's lifestyles. For example, one could argue that if they had just stuck with austerity, they would have dug their way out of the hole they were in, eventually, which means it could take decades, where millions of people live in misery waiting for a day they'd never see.
- Mar 11, 2009
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- Jun 7, 2010
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Let's see what lifestyle they can live without having to rely on unsustainable borrowing from the "ruthless and immoral" financial powers.
- Jul 4, 2009
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roundabout said:
...is interesting to see what that "unsustainable borrowing" was spent on....military procurement was a biggie, such that in the period leading up to the crash Greece was one highest spending countries in per capita spending on military goods...it was borrowed by a hopelessly corrupt government who took money from lenders who either didn't do their homework or didn't care because they had the leverage to make someone pay, Greece, the EU, Germany, France....the lender, if he is being correct and proper, has the duty to look at the borrower and assess his ability to repay....now if the lender has not done his due diligence and is in effect just throwing his money around he should be prepared to face the consequences ( unless of course they "just knew" someone would step in to backstop the loan....in this case the common taxpayers in Greece, France and Germany...)
...btw given the way the negotiations on dealing with the original financial issue went with them thar financial powers it could easily be called "ruthless and immoral" ( read the lenders weren't your friendly neighborhood bank but rather some rather odious vulture capitalists who used the threat of major disruptions to the derivatives market and the EU economy to help force the settlement they got....btw didn't dream this up as this came from a CBC radio documentary on the issue )...think of the way CEREBRUS played GM into a potential bankruptcy thru their control of GMAC in order to get a handout from the US government....
Cheers
- Jul 4, 2009
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....and in addition to the financial issue the EU may have another problem...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Greek Government Has Deep, Long-Standing Ties With Russian 'Fascist' Dugin
Source: RFE/RL
Europe-watchers understood immediately that the new leftist Syriza-led government in Greece could shatter the European Union's fragile solidarity condemning Russian aggression in Ukraine. But recently leaked e-mails are revealing some of the extent and duration of Syriza's ties with Kremlin-connected Eurasianist ideologue Aleksandr Dugin and Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofeyev, who is believed to have bankrolled much of the separatist movement in Ukraine.
Anton Shekhovtsov, a researcher who studies far-right politics in Europe, says that sympathy for Russia by Syriza and its coalition partner, the right-wing Independent Greeks party, goes far beyond the norm for Greece. "Pro-Russian sentiment is quite widespread in Greece overall," Shekhovtsov says. "But these two parties -- their foreign policy is overtly, openly pro-Russia. And the fact that the new government's prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, his first contacts were with the ambassador of Russia in Greece, that means probably they will be trying to establish more significant cooperation with Russia."
In December 2014, a Russian hacker group named Shaltai Boltai released a trove of e-mails taken from Georgy Gavrish, a close friend of Dugin's and an official in Dugin's Eurasia movement. Many of the e-mails relate to efforts by Dugin and Malofeyev to create a circle of European politicians and intellectuals sympathetic to Russia.
Several dozen of the e-mails reveal conversations between Gavrish and people inside Syriza, says Christo Grozev, a media investor and blogger specializing in information issues in eastern Europe.
Read more: http://www.rferl.org/content/greek-...urasianist-dugin/26818523.html?fb_ref=Default
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Greek Government Has Deep, Long-Standing Ties With Russian 'Fascist' Dugin
Source: RFE/RL
Europe-watchers understood immediately that the new leftist Syriza-led government in Greece could shatter the European Union's fragile solidarity condemning Russian aggression in Ukraine. But recently leaked e-mails are revealing some of the extent and duration of Syriza's ties with Kremlin-connected Eurasianist ideologue Aleksandr Dugin and Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofeyev, who is believed to have bankrolled much of the separatist movement in Ukraine.
Anton Shekhovtsov, a researcher who studies far-right politics in Europe, says that sympathy for Russia by Syriza and its coalition partner, the right-wing Independent Greeks party, goes far beyond the norm for Greece. "Pro-Russian sentiment is quite widespread in Greece overall," Shekhovtsov says. "But these two parties -- their foreign policy is overtly, openly pro-Russia. And the fact that the new government's prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, his first contacts were with the ambassador of Russia in Greece, that means probably they will be trying to establish more significant cooperation with Russia."
In December 2014, a Russian hacker group named Shaltai Boltai released a trove of e-mails taken from Georgy Gavrish, a close friend of Dugin's and an official in Dugin's Eurasia movement. Many of the e-mails relate to efforts by Dugin and Malofeyev to create a circle of European politicians and intellectuals sympathetic to Russia.
Several dozen of the e-mails reveal conversations between Gavrish and people inside Syriza, says Christo Grozev, a media investor and blogger specializing in information issues in eastern Europe.
Read more: http://www.rferl.org/content/greek-...urasianist-dugin/26818523.html?fb_ref=Default
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers
- Jun 7, 2010
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blutto said:
Sorry, but overblown military spending doesn't push the debt to 200% of GDP.
It also must be bad luck to have over 30 years of hopelessly corrupt governments and not being able to do a thing about it.
But nice try.
- Jul 4, 2009
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roundabout said:
....so are right it doesn't but it was a fair proportion of some rather stupid spending over some years....but lets get back to the salient point which is how a proper loan system works...in a smart legitimate transaction money is loaned with the expectation of it being paid back, it not just thrown at anyone with an open hand....surely to gawd somewhere in a system that loaned billions and billions of dollars there should have some sober sensible adult who looked at the books and said "Hey we would be stupid to give these guys money because they don't have a prayer to give it back" .....
...and one would think that if, as you state, it was known that the Greek government had been hopelessly corrupt for 30 years why on earth would a lender throw huge money at a situation that everyone knew was hopeless....you may want to follow the money on this one, as in who spent it, and who ultimately paid it back...
Cheers
- Jul 4, 2009
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roundabout said:
...at least try get your facts straight, the Greek debt has never reached 200% ( it peaked last year at 175% and this after years of having its economy hammered by austerity measures )....in fact just prior to the crisis and the imposition of austerity it was very close to what the US is now ( 109% to 101% )....
Cheers
- Apr 2, 2009
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roundabout said:
Your sarcasm is rather misguided.
The Greeks have witnessed their lifestyles get decidedly worse, because the financial powers have opted to sell the Greek state more and more money to sustain and prolong its investment (loaning money, after all, is not done out of kindness).
One doesn't expect the banks to be humanitarian institutions, but at the same time it is entirely legitimite to frown upon the Troika. What's taking place used to be called usury and it's still being practised by the illegal Mafias. Public Greek workers who have all their taxes detracted from their paychecks are no more at fault for the currupted politicians being egged on and abbeted by the Goldman Sachs of finance, than moi did for the Bush administration lying to the world to go to war in the Middle East. Yet we are always given the bill.
The entire situation could be easily resolved. Reestablish the terms of repayment to arriving at principle, with a ceiling on how much interest can be earned (or no paying of interest), beyond which the rest goes back to Greece, with an independent commission set up to audit the Greek government. Stop
- Sep 25, 2009
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who owes who ?
germany NEVER repaid a loan that it forced upon greece. the DW article black on white admitted that much:
germany NEVER repaid a loan that it forced upon greece. the DW article black on white admitted that much:
http://www.dw.de/greece-tallies-up-...bill/a-18224874?maca=en-rss-en-world-4025-rdf
blutto said:
Dugin is a very interesting intellectual, though I don't agree with everything he says. I've listened to a lot of his conferences (since he has some good command of French) He's got a lot of culture. Most interesting is his idea of an alliance between Orthodoxy (which he's of course a firm believer in), traditional Catholicism (Lefebvrist side) and traditional Sunni Islam** against the liberal West represented by the USA (according to him).
**That is why he's invited Sheikh Imran Hosein for a round table discussion. HAHAHA
blutto said:
I recommend "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" as an eye opener about how and why these things happen. Basically, countries are set up with enormous debt so that they can be looted when they collapse. The icing on the cake is that the banks making the loans often get a nice bailout. In Greece's case, I've heard Goldman Sachs helped hide the extent of the debt problem so that the loans could keep flowing...
John Swanson
- Jul 4, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
...have read the Hitman piece and yes it is a very very good read....and btw thanks for bringing up the Goldman Sachs involvement which had slipped my mind and is very much a key part to this ugly story....
...there is also the rank hypocrisy of both France and especially Germany in this affair...both were flush with cash as the EU system allowed them to become major economic haves, they were the source of much of the loaning activity to the have-nots ( Spain Italy Portugal Greece etc )...it was a way to the ensure that the haves could keep selling goods to the have-nots....
Cheers
- Jul 4, 2009
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....the other thing to consider is how inclusion in the EU severely limited Greece's ability to manage their own economy....they could not for instance resort to devaluation of a Greek specific currency and they could not follow the Iceland example in dealing with a banker induced financial meltdown....see article below...
http://www.alternet.org/economy/country-refuses-bow-down-western-bankers
...and an important bit from that article....
"Ever since the establishment of the modern nation-state in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the creation of the euro was perhaps the first significant experiment in modern times in which there was an attempt to separate money from the state, that is, to denationalize currency, as some right-wing ideologues and founders of modern neoliberalism, such as Friedrich von Hayek, had defended. What the Eurozone crisis teaches is that this perception of how the monetary system works is quite wrong, because, in times of crisis, the democratic state must be able to spend money in order to meet its obligations to its citizens. The denationalization or ?supra-nationalization? of money with the establishment that happened in the Eurozone took away from elected national governments the capacity to meaningfully manage their economies. Unless governments in the Eurozone are able to renegotiate a significant control and access money from their own central banks, the system will be continually plagued with crisis and will probably collapse."
Cheers
http://www.alternet.org/economy/country-refuses-bow-down-western-bankers
...and an important bit from that article....
"Ever since the establishment of the modern nation-state in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the creation of the euro was perhaps the first significant experiment in modern times in which there was an attempt to separate money from the state, that is, to denationalize currency, as some right-wing ideologues and founders of modern neoliberalism, such as Friedrich von Hayek, had defended. What the Eurozone crisis teaches is that this perception of how the monetary system works is quite wrong, because, in times of crisis, the democratic state must be able to spend money in order to meet its obligations to its citizens. The denationalization or ?supra-nationalization? of money with the establishment that happened in the Eurozone took away from elected national governments the capacity to meaningfully manage their economies. Unless governments in the Eurozone are able to renegotiate a significant control and access money from their own central banks, the system will be continually plagued with crisis and will probably collapse."
Cheers
- Jun 7, 2010
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drachma is the word you're looking for
and let's ignore the lower yields of bonds they had after joining the eurozone
and let's ignore the lower yields of bonds they had after joining the eurozone
- Jun 7, 2010
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blutto said:
eh, it must have been around 200% before the public debt write-off, but I don't care that much to google now when exactly that happened
edit: private debt write-off, it's been a long week
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