World Politics

[ToreBear]

I see there was a discussion on MH17. The Russian version of events is just desperate propaganda. The only unknown in that case is if the Buk in question had been captured in Crimea, then refurbished in Russia before arriving in Ukraine, or whether it was from the Russian Armed forces. Also I'm unsure of whether the BUK crew were Serving members of the Russian armed forces or Ukrainians having been retrained by the Russians. I think they were serving members. And no, they didn't mean to shoot mh17 down.

As for gas in Syria. Yes the Syrians used Sarin on their own people. And no it wasn't something concocted by the CIA with the help of the Saudies and the Nusra Front in order for the US to invade/bomb and remove Assad.

Globalresearch.ca is a disinformation group with links to Moscow. And Russian insider is a recent propaganda outlet of the same source. Jeebus talk about use of sources.

Oh, for more info on one part of the Russian propaganda apparatus. Check this out:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/29/russia-troll-sues-former-employer

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Politics is a religious topic anyway. This thread is discussing the actions of God to some extent at least, especially when directly discussing elections. God determines the results, God is in control whether you know it or not.

 

[snccdcno]

Oh boy.

 

[Jspear]

I agree we should use the religion thread for topics leaning more on the religious side. @ScienceIsCool @Merckx index - I replied with just some short remarks in the God and Religion thread.

 

[movingtarget]

I see there was a discussion on MH17. The Russian version of events is just desperate propaganda. The only unknown in that case is if the Buk in question had been captured in Crimea, then refurbished in Russia before arriving in Ukraine, or whether it was from the Russian Armed forces. Also I'm unsure of whether the BUK crew were Serving members of the Russian armed forces or Ukrainians having been retrained by the Russians. I think they were serving members. And no, they didn't mean to shoot mh17 down.

As for gas in Syria. Yes the Syrians used Sarin on their own people. And no it wasn't something concocted by the CIA with the help of the Saudies and the Nusra Front in order for the US to invade/bomb and remove Assad.

Globalresearch.ca is a disinformation group with links to Moscow. And Russian insider is a recent propaganda outlet of the same source. Jeebus talk about use of sources.

Oh, for more info on one part of the Russian propaganda apparatus. Check this out:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/29/russia-troll-sues-former-employer

The trolls are very active on the Guardian website and they get very upset about articles that are even slightly critical of Russia. As for Syria, how longer can the government last ? Depending on which news source you believe, it sounds like not much longer.

 

[ToreBear]

I see there was a discussion on MH17. The Russian version of events is just desperate propaganda. The only unknown in that case is if the Buk in question had been captured in Crimea, then refurbished in Russia before arriving in Ukraine, or whether it was from the Russian Armed forces. Also I'm unsure of whether the BUK crew were Serving members of the Russian armed forces or Ukrainians having been retrained by the Russians. I think they were serving members. And no, they didn't mean to shoot mh17 down.

As for gas in Syria. Yes the Syrians used Sarin on their own people. And no it wasn't something concocted by the CIA with the help of the Saudies and the Nusra Front in order for the US to invade/bomb and remove Assad.

Globalresearch.ca is a disinformation group with links to Moscow. And Russian insider is a recent propaganda outlet of the same source. Jeebus talk about use of sources.

Oh, for more info on one part of the Russian propaganda apparatus. Check this out:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/29/russia-troll-sues-former-employer

The trolls are very active on the Guardian website and they get very upset about articles that are even slightly critical of Russia. As for Syria, how longer can the government last ? Depending on which news source you believe, it sounds like not much longer.

I'm sure the Guardian is prioritized. But there are also true believers who don't do it for a living. Anyway as for Syria, I've not been following that conflict much. AFAIK there is a stalemate. If the Syrian army looses something, they can draw forces from somewhere else and take it back, weakening themselves in a new area. If there is talk of Isil fighting in Damascus that might be a sign that they are in trouble. Still it's very hard to tell in this conflict.

 

[thrawn]

Re: Re:

72% of Australians are in favor of gay marriage.
I don't want to be an Australian any more.
I don't want to be from this planet any more.
The earth is covered in darkness.

Really ? 72% ? But it's funny when you talk to people there is no indication of that. I think it is inevitable because like a lot of other causes when something starts to trend in the media, people want to belong to it. Let's face it, for many, life is a popularity contest. Shorten's motives are purely political of course. After Gay priests and ministers, the writing was on the wall for the legal changes. Fred Nile might have to retire now. Soon it will all blow over and real issues can be attended to. This changes nothing. Even without marriage people are Gay. Life goes on.

I think it depends on the people you talk to. The vast majority of people I know do support gay marriage, but that's probably a reflection of the social circles I'm involved in.

It should also be noted that a lot of people may not necessarily be vocally pro gay marriage and consider it a minor issue. However if asked if they support gay marriage they're probably like sure, why not, doesn't have any impact on my life.

To Green Monkey: out of curiousity, could you explain why you are so against gay marriage, to be so upset by 72% of the population supporting it? Presumably it would have little impact on your life if it gets approved.

God says it is wrong.

Doesn't God create gay people too?

 

[Echoes]

Re:

Don't feel bad. I'm sure there's countries with more than 28% morons.

Proud of being one. After all the name "Flandrian" came from a French insult too.

And I certainly won't report.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

before reading the another *forensic* investigation on mh17, i attempted to check the author - a certain bellingcat - credentials...

turns out, there are none, including at the bloger's own site, except a stamp - 'by and for citizen investigative journalistse '...thus, i would not take it any more serously than the rebel's or russian propaganda.


@movingtarget
saakashvili is the sole reason i started following everything eastern europe in 2008. that he is being sought for crimes in his native georgia is not that unusual for a former soviet republic. not defending the foolish guy, but it is their standard practice to sue for corruption when the real reason is political.

the real problem with saaka is that he is a hot-blooded, irresponsible adventurist...according to the eu's own report, he started a war in 2008 attacking an independently minded region during the olympicgames counting that putin, while in peking, will not dare to react...he miscalculated and the russian troops almost drove him out of his capital.

my interest THEN was aroused by the crazy riskiness (or an utter stupidity) of his move. i tried to understand if he was given a green light by america...my research conclusively showed, he was not...while somewhat ambiguous, the state dept. did not encourage him.

iow, saaka is crazy and can lead to much trouble if not controlled.

i can not see anyone in the struggling, weak ukraine capable of controlling him. unless, it is another state department blunder of ambiguity.

Wait, you only started in 2008? And you have the gall to go around telling people, who's background you don't even know, how they aren't qualified to discuss these things with a great expert such as yourself?

Unbelievable.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

People, let's keep it on-topic please.

There's plenty I want to say about all of this, but let's keep religion in the religion topic alright?

I mean, obviously religion can be very relevant and on-topic with regards to world politics, however, the way this discussion is going it belongs in the religion topic.

Why is this not on topic?

Because Martin, like all religious people, would ultimately prefer not to have religion discussed. They defend it when they have to, but it is stressful and they are scared of confronting the truth, so when they can, they like to shut the discussion down.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

before reading the another *forensic* investigation on mh17, i attempted to check the author - a certain bellingcat - credentials...

turns out, there are none, including at the bloger's own site, except a stamp - 'by and for citizen investigative journalistse '...thus, i would not take it any more serously than the rebel's or russian propaganda.


@movingtarget
saakashvili is the sole reason i started following everything eastern europe in 2008. that he is being sought for crimes in his native georgia is not that unusual for a former soviet republic. not defending the foolish guy, but it is their standard practice to sue for corruption when the real reason is political.

the real problem with saaka is that he is a hot-blooded, irresponsible adventurist...according to the eu's own report, he started a war in 2008 attacking an independently minded region during the olympicgames counting that putin, while in peking, will not dare to react...he miscalculated and the russian troops almost drove him out of his capital.

my interest THEN was aroused by the crazy riskiness (or an utter stupidity) of his move. i tried to understand if he was given a green light by america...my research conclusively showed, he was not...while somewhat ambiguous, the state dept. did not encourage him.

iow, saaka is crazy and can lead to much trouble if not controlled.

i can not see anyone in the struggling, weak ukraine capable of controlling him. unless, it is another state department blunder of ambiguity.

Wait, you only started in 2008? And you have the gall to go around telling people, who's background you don't even know, how they aren't qualified to discuss these things with a great expert such as yourself?

Unbelievable.

of course this is unbelievable b/c you just invented another absurd lie about me.

provide a link or a quote to what you attribute to me.
where did i accuse anyone not being qualified to discuss any issue with me ? if that a conclusion of your inflamed brain, you need to do some fact checking before posting absurdities.

on another note...on mh17, just in...seems significant, since the news puts to rest one of the russian versions--about a fighter shooting the liner...
according to several ukrainian sources, the buk missile manufacturer claimed this morning it was one of their own missiles. they also claimed to have conducted an investigation as to where from the missile was fired. the company official said their investigation was conducted in connection with sanction agaist them. all their conclusions, he said, will be presented to an international court. they were passed over to the dutch comission already. the official invited international experts to check the results independently.
if the dutch comission accepts their evidence, in part or whole, the buk missile appears the sure culprit.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

To Green Monkey: out of curiousity, could you explain why you are so against gay marriage, to be so upset by 72% of the population supporting it? Presumably it would have little impact on your life if it gets approved.[/quote]

God says it is wrong.[/quote]

Doesn't God create gay people too?[/quote]

Of course..a 'God works in mysterious ways'..canned response now coming.

So...if God is omnipotent, made man with the ability to reason..why create doubt in man with things like..gay people, childhood cancer, Nazi-ism, cystic fibrosis. A test? Is God a mean entity? Why not God just make things 'right'? No 2 year olds dying of cancer, no brown shirts beating people to death, no gay people, no hate, blah, blah...

I donno why I feed Mr Monkey..he is a troll.

Or...he set things a spinning, now doesn't care or God-like-ness is within, not without, all of us.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

People, let's keep it on-topic please.

There's plenty I want to say about all of this, but let's keep religion in the religion topic alright?

I mean, obviously religion can be very relevant and on-topic with regards to world politics, however, the way this discussion is going it belongs in the religion topic.

Why is this not on topic?

Because Martin, like all religious people, would ultimately prefer not to have religion discussed. They defend it when they have to, but it is stressful and they are scared of confronting the truth, so when they can, they like to shut the discussion down.

the bolded statement is yet another intentional misrepresentation.

while i disagreed with his post about religion being off-topic here, and posted so upthread, maarten did not try to shut the discussion. he merely suggested to MOVE it to another thread.

why do you need to misrepresent so blatantly about what people said and what's so easy to verify ?

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Re: Re:

Because Martin, like all religious people, would ultimately prefer not to have religion discussed. They defend it when they have to, but it is stressful and they are scared of confronting the truth, so when they can, they like to shut the discussion down.

You know the religion topic is actually the one I'm most active in according to my profile.

 

[del1962]

Former UK MP and SDLP party leader Charles Kennedy died today at the age of 55, very sad, he took his seat in the house of commons age 23

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re: Re:

Bustedknuckle, Well done on being the first person to call me a troll. I will give the rest of the post the answer you deserve.

 

[blutto]

....for what its worth....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russian missile-maker says MH17 shot down by version in Ukraine arsenal

Source: CTV Canada

MOSCOW -- The Russian maker of the Buk air defence missile system said Tuesday that it has concluded that Malaysian Airlines flight 17 was downed by an older version of the missile, which isn't in service with the Russian military but is in Ukrainian arsenals.
Controversy continues over who shot down the plane last summer over eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people aboard. Ukraine and the West suspect it was destroyed by a Russian surface-to-air missile fired by Russian forces or separatist rebels fighting in the area. Russia denies that.

Mikhail Malyshevsky, an adviser to the director general of the state-controlled Almaz-Antei consortium, said at a news conference Tuesday that the analysis was based on photographs of the wreckage available to the public. He said the holes in the plane's parts were consistent with a specific type of Buk missile and its warhead.

Each of the Buk subtypes has its warhead rigged with shrapnel of a specific shape. This type of missile is in the Ukrainian military arsenals, but not in the Russian, said Almaz-Antei director Yan Novikov. Rebels have staunchly denied even possessing a functioning Buk missile launcher at the time that MH17 was brought down, although one was seen in separatist-controlled Snizhne by AP reporters a few hours before the plane crashed.

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/russian-missile-maker-says-mh17-shot-down-by-version-in-ukraine-arsenal-1.2402141
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...but as with seemingly everything that relates to this incident nothing is quite as simple as it seems...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"According to the Belling Cat report:

The AP reported on August 25th that “On July 17, AP reporters in the town of Snizhne saw a tracked launcher with four SA-11 surface-to-air missiles parked on a street. The bulky missile system is also known as a Buk M-1. Three hours later, people six miles (10 kilometers) west of Snizhne heard loud noises and then saw the wreckage and bodies from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 fall from the sky.” (Page 9)

Note that the AP reported that on 25th August, nearly six weeks after MH17 went down!

But on 17th July did AP reporters say they saw four missiles? No.

They reported that they saw seven tanks and a BUK but not that the BUK had four missiles! The four missiles claim was added much later. There is also some doubt about what precise time the 17th July AP report was submitted. See MH17 and the Associated Press (AP) for further details. Peter Leonard has some serious questions to answer. He appears to be the source of these claims and seems to embellish his reports as time goes by."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cheers

 

[blutto]

....from a BK post above...

"Or...he set things a spinning, now doesn't care or God-like-ness is within, not without, all of us."

...how very Gnostic of you...good on you...truth be known always had a fondness for that particular form of "non-corporate" pre Augustine Christianity...

Cheers

 

[Amsterhammer]

So, is blutto's CTV story above the first confirmation from any Russian source that it was a BUK that shot the plane down? It seems to me that everyone agrees that a BUK was responsible. The questions have always been - whose BUK, who was at the controls, what were their motives, and where was it when it fired? The vast preponderance of evidence, both real and circumstantial, suggests that the missile was fired from rebel held territory.

 

[blutto]

Re:

So, is blutto's CTV story above the first confirmation from any Russian source that it was a BUK that shot the plane down? It seems to me that everyone agrees that a BUK was responsible. The questions have always been - whose BUK, who was at the controls, what were their motives, and where was it when it fired? The vast preponderance of evidence, both real and circumstantial, suggests that the missile was fired from rebel held territory.

...waiting for the inevitable spin storm to hit.....

Cheers

 

[python]

as i posted before the canadian source linked, the ukrainian sources stressed their fighter being involved is now an improbability.

there were other multiple technical details listed, i did not quite understand...i did not find the details yet in any other major european languages i do understand well. here's what i DID understand:

1. the buk missile type/model according to the official, was discontinued in russia in 1999. he claimed there are no buk m1 in russia while they were contracted by ukraine to upgrade 992 missiles of the type
2. he claimed they performed a triangulation and are ready to prove it in a european court that the missile was fired from a certain town NOT controlled by the rebels. he claimed error of +/- 1.5 km

forgot to add an importnt detail: he also made a claim that there is irrefutable evidence that 2 american satellites were exactly in the needed spots to register the launch. he thus was sure the us has the needed location but chose to never publish it...

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

thrawn,

I have found your question hard to answer. I am not going to come out with some canned answer like suggested in another post, I am going to think about it some more. On the surface it is a yes or no question, but it is also much more complex than that.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Bustedknuckle, Well done on being the first person to call me a troll. I will give the rest of the post the answer you deserve.

I don't think your a troll. I have read some of your post's
I don't judge people for their life style choice only their actions and the way they treat or talk to other people.
I don't have respect for views based on sheer ignorance, most of these people seem to be religious "have a built in prejudice based on fairy tale books" Your views on gay marriage IMO shows you are homophobic.

Jesus Christ thank god I am an atheist.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re: Re:

Bustedknuckle, Well done on being the first person to call me a troll. I will give the rest of the post the answer you deserve.

I don't think your a troll. I have read some of your post's
I don't judge people for their life style choice only their actions and the way they treat or talk to other people.
I don't have respect for views based on sheer ignorance, most of these people seem to be religious "have a built in prejudice based on fairy tale books" Your views on gay marriage IMO shows you are homophobic.

Jesus Christ thank god I am an atheist.

You say homophobic as though it is a bad thing. It certainly is if views on homosexuality leads a person to treat homosexuals different to other people, especially when it leads to things like gay bashing. That is disgraceful and totally wrong. Just because I believe something someone does is wrong NEVER, EVER, in absolutely no circumstance excuses treating that person badly.
As I don't see people engaging in homosexual sex as doing anything worse than people engaging in heterosexual sex out side of marriage I do not believe I have anything in particular special against homosexuals.
In all things, whenever you become aware of anyone do something wrong, could be anything not just closely related to this topic, I believe it is vital you remember that you too are a failing person, you to do wrong things and therefore be willing to work with people despite their failings. I know I do many wrong things, I lie, I try to be honest, but at times I do lie, so how harsh can I really be if someone lies to me, or does something else wrong. I fail, they fail, we all fail to do the right thing. I need to be forgiving, I need to show love, I need to live in peace, I need to turn my back on hate and violence, we all do.

So while I might not be a homosexual, or engage in any sexual activity, I am a liar, I am guilty of wrong, I am not different to them.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Re:

as i posted before the canadian source linked, the ukrainian sources stressed their fighter being involved is now an improbability.

there were other multiple technical details listed, i did not quite understand...i did not find the details yet in any other major european languages i do understand well. here's what i DID understand:

1. the buk missile type/model according to the official, was discontinued in russia in 1999. he claimed there are no buk m1 in russia while they were contracted by ukraine to upgrade 992 missiles of the type
2. he claimed they performed a triangulation and are ready to prove it in a european court that the missile was fired from a certain town NOT controlled by the rebels. he claimed error of +/- 1.5 km

forgot to add an importnt detail: he also made a claim that there is irrefutable evidence that 2 american satellites were exactly in the needed spots to register the launch. he thus was sure the us has the needed location but chose to never publish it...

I have always thought that the US must have some sort of electronic evidence about exactly what happened, and from whose territory the missile was launched. Suspicious minds might infer certain conclusions from the complete lack of any public evidence from the US. I have no ideological axe to grind, I simply want those responsible for this outrage to be identified, apprehended, tried, and punished. Whoever they are.