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Dec 7, 2010
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python said:
as i just posted, the escalation is on...several sites are reporting a stern russian defense ministry's statement.

its hilites:

-su-24 was inside syria and was hit by a turkey f-16 that violated syrian airspace. they cite what they called an objective control both their own and the syrian.
- russian operations in the area will continue and will ALL be from now on escorted by the fighters. any threats will be met accordingly.
-their cruiser in the area is shipping to a latakia province vicinity and will shoot-to-kill any air threat to russian operations. the cruiser is sporting a s-300 system claimed to match or exceed the patriots.
- they confirmed a loss of a search helo shot by rebel weapons while on the ground (the rebel video turns out correct)
- they confirmed one of the pilots was killed in the air (again, confirming the rebel video posted above)
-they confirmed losing another soldier from a search party.

2 earlier predicted developments are now close to panning out...1. russia is getting sucked in ala afghanistan, but not there yet, which offers nothing positive for putin. 2. erdogan's duplicity ( a nato member being a defacto accomplice of isil) may now get called in. if not by the fellow 'members' than by vlad.
Yes it seems that Turkey would rather support and defend ISIL. This bandit oil is going through that region into Turkey and the Russians know this fact. They are not going to back down here.

Hope it is not another Afghanistan situation.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Glenn_Wilson said:
python said:
as i just posted, the escalation is on...several sites are reporting a stern russian defense ministry's statement.

its hilites:

-su-24 was inside syria and was hit by a turkey f-16 that violated syrian airspace. they cite what they called an objective control both their own and the syrian.
- russian operations in the area will continue and will ALL be from now on escorted by the fighters. any threats will be met accordingly.
-their cruiser in the area is shipping to a latakia province vicinity and will shoot-to-kill any air threat to russian operations. the cruiser is sporting a s-300 system claimed to match or exceed the patriots.
- they confirmed a loss of a search helo shot by rebel weapons while on the ground (the rebel video turns out correct)
- they confirmed one of the pilots was killed in the air (again, confirming the rebel video posted above)
-they confirmed losing another soldier from a search party.

2 earlier predicted developments are now close to panning out...1. russia is getting sucked in ala afghanistan, but not there yet, which offers nothing positive for putin. 2. erdogan's duplicity ( a nato member being a defacto accomplice of isil) may now get called in. if not by the fellow 'members' than by vlad.
Yes it seems that Turkey would rather support and defend ISIL. This bandit oil is going through that region into Turkey and the Russians know this fact. They are not going to back down here.

Hope it is not another Afghanistan situation.
here's a major western msm's opinion as if they read your statement. i'm not sure if its the typical british 'little bs' reporting manner or the guardian's integrity i should credit...every turkey apologist should read this twice, thrice. the turkish 'stab in the back' of the thousands of isil-slayed civilians should at least form some contextual background to what happened today.

Is Vladimir Putin right to label Turkey ‘accomplices of terrorists’?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis

select quotes:

Turkey’s international airports have also been busy. Many, if not most, of the estimated 15,000-20,000 foreign fighters to have joined the Islamic State (Isis) have first flown into Istanbul or Adana, or arrived by ferry along its Mediterranean coast.
Vladimir Putin’s reference to Turkey as “accomplices of terrorists” is likely to resonate even among some of Ankara’s backers.
From midway through 2012, when jihadis started to travel to Syria, their presence was apparent at all points of the journey to the border. At Istanbul airport, in the southern cities of Hatay and Gaziantep – both of which were staging points – and in the border villages. Foreigners on their way to fight remained fixtures on these routes until late in 2014 when, after continued pressure from the EU states and the US, coordinated efforts were made to turn them back
.
my note: pay attention, the guardian said the us and other eu (say nato) members knew all along !!

As Syria unravelled, Turkey doubled down on its commitment to a range of militant groups,

Despite that, links to some aspects of Isis continued to develop. Turkish businessmen struck lucrative deals with Isis oil smugglers, adding at least $10m (£6.6m) per week to the terror group’s coffers
Ever since, Turkey’s jets have aimed their missiles almost exclusively at PKK targets inside its borders and in Syria, where the YPG, a military ally of the PKK, has been the only effective fighting force against Isis – while acting under the cover of US fighter jets.

the entire article is a scathing expose of the turkish duplicity the turkey apologists will find uncomfortable.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

python said:
Glenn_Wilson said:
python said:
as i just posted, the escalation is on...several sites are reporting a stern russian defense ministry's statement.

its hilites:

-su-24 was inside syria and was hit by a turkey f-16 that violated syrian airspace. they cite what they called an objective control both their own and the syrian.
- russian operations in the area will continue and will ALL be from now on escorted by the fighters. any threats will be met accordingly.
-their cruiser in the area is shipping to a latakia province vicinity and will shoot-to-kill any air threat to russian operations. the cruiser is sporting a s-300 system claimed to match or exceed the patriots.
- they confirmed a loss of a search helo shot by rebel weapons while on the ground (the rebel video turns out correct)
- they confirmed one of the pilots was killed in the air (again, confirming the rebel video posted above)
-they confirmed losing another soldier from a search party.

2 earlier predicted developments are now close to panning out...1. russia is getting sucked in ala afghanistan, but not there yet, which offers nothing positive for putin. 2. erdogan's duplicity ( a nato member being a defacto accomplice of isil) may now get called in. if not by the fellow 'members' than by vlad.
Yes it seems that Turkey would rather support and defend ISIL. This bandit oil is going through that region into Turkey and the Russians know this fact. They are not going to back down here.

Hope it is not another Afghanistan situation.
here's a major western msm's opinion as if they read your statement. i'm not sure if its the typical british 'little bs' reporting manner or the guardian's integrity i should credit...every turkey apologist should read this twice, thrice. the turkish 'stab in the back' of the thousands of isil-slayed civilians should at least form some contextual background to what happened today.

Is Vladimir Putin right to label Turkey ‘accomplices of terrorists’?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis

select quotes:

Turkey’s international airports have also been busy. Many, if not most, of the estimated 15,000-20,000 foreign fighters to have joined the Islamic State (Isis) have first flown into Istanbul or Adana, or arrived by ferry along its Mediterranean coast.
Vladimir Putin’s reference to Turkey as “accomplices of terrorists” is likely to resonate even among some of Ankara’s backers.
From midway through 2012, when jihadis started to travel to Syria, their presence was apparent at all points of the journey to the border. At Istanbul airport, in the southern cities of Hatay and Gaziantep – both of which were staging points – and in the border villages. Foreigners on their way to fight remained fixtures on these routes until late in 2014 when, after continued pressure from the EU states and the US, coordinated efforts were made to turn them back
.
my note: pay attention, the guardian said the us and other eu (say nato) members knew all along !!

As Syria unravelled, Turkey doubled down on its commitment to a range of militant groups,

Despite that, links to some aspects of Isis continued to develop. Turkish businessmen struck lucrative deals with Isis oil smugglers, adding at least $10m (£6.6m) per week to the terror group’s coffers
Ever since, Turkey’s jets have aimed their missiles almost exclusively at PKK targets inside its borders and in Syria, where the YPG, a military ally of the PKK, has been the only effective fighting force against Isis – while acting under the cover of US fighter jets.

the entire article is a scathing expose of the turkish duplicity the turkey apologists will find uncomfortable.
Glad to see someone report it. Maybe someone in the USA will catch on. I sure hope so.
 
Sep 8, 2009
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Peshmerga and the russians are the good guys there. This tells you what a mess that whole area is...

Good to hear that most of the nato members told turkey that they shouldn't done it at least
 
Apr 3, 2009
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Re: Re:

python said:
here's a major western msm's opinion as if they read your statement. i'm not sure if its the typical british 'little bs' reporting manner or the guardian's integrity i should credit...every turkey apologist should read this twice, thrice. the turkish 'stab in the back' of the thousands of isil-slayed civilians should at least form some contextual background to what happened today.

Is Vladimir Putin right to label Turkey ‘accomplices of terrorists’?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis

...(cut for brevity)...

the entire article is a scathing expose of the turkish duplicity the turkey apologists will find uncomfortable.

Good post. That said, it's not surprising that Putin wants to conflate Turkey's sordid actions in regard to this situation with the shooting down of the Russian fighter jet today, as he's looking to paint them the villain. Clearly Turkey have much to answer for in the larger context, but that is a very separate question from what happened today.

It does not address why the Russian jet was maneuvering in and around Turkish airspace in the way it was. Conflating the two questions seems like an attempt by him to keep folks from asking what Russia was doing with that jet.

I think we should be careful to keep those separate issues separate. Unless this is part of some larger effort on the part of Russia to address the inflow of ISIS and other fighters over Turkey, which seems wildly unlikely.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Glenn_Wilson wrote:
Glad to see someone report it. Maybe someone in the USA will catch on.
as you have wished, glenn, it looks like at least some of the us msm did catch on.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/turkey-shoots-down-russian-warplane-near-border-syria-n468671

quite frankly, i have no idea where the nbc falls in terms of liberal vs. a conservative agenda on american scale. but i did bookmark their rss after reading what seemed to me several attempts at a balanced coverage. not unlike the guardian in the uk which wastes no time affiliating with the left. if so, i must be leaning :)

anyways, here's an nbc-quoted american defense official:
They were in Turkish airspace only 2 to 3 seconds, a matter of seconds" before the Turkish F-16s attacked, the officials said.

compare the 2-3 seconds 'violation' to my earlier reference to a 12 second estimate by an expert opinion from the aviationist outlet and the question of who provoked who becoming more interesting.

lets think here. an american official right after the nato general meeting, as expected, automatically supported the turkey version of the downing, is engaging with the media into making that version much smaller (a typical move to leak an alternative point). again, keep in mind that the supposed backpedaling by the us is happening in the background of the russia-released data that it was turkey that violated the syrian airspace.

so, was it a provocation and by who ?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Vlad is right in this case. This was an appalling, and an appallingly stupid, provocation by the Turks. I commend the following long-ish but most insightful piece to your attention, written by Alastair Crooke, ex British diplomat and intelligence official, and featuring a bizarre exchange with Zbig.

Tom Friedman put it well: “Obama has been right in his ambivalence about getting deeply involved in Syria. But he’s never had the courage of his own ambivalence to spell out his reasoning to the American people. He keeps letting himself get pummeled into doing and saying things that his gut tells him won’t work, so he gets the worst of all worlds: His rhetoric exceeds the policy, and the policy doesn’t work.”

Not surprisingly, then, some in America are (cautiously) beginning to see President Putin’s military initiative as the only way to cut the Gordian knot and release President Obama from his “knot” of ambivalence: Let Russia and its allies defeat ISIS, and let “the farmer, a carpenter, an engineer who started out as protesters and suddenly now see themselves in the midst of a civil conflict” – in Obama’s words – become somehow assimilated into the political process.

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/17/lost-on-the-dark-side-in-syria/
 
Sep 25, 2009
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following the shooting down, i am most curious of the consequences...to me it is both an engaging lesson in war gaming and the dim reality of geopolitics...

almost all the options depend on how russia will respond. the comments range from russia-nato air war to a quick deescalation. my personal view is that there will be further escalation. a slow one. the 2 principal leaders in the conflict are too similar and stubborn - both are authoritarian and cultivate an image of ballsy strongman leading their nations into a new future. an islamist neo-ottoman against an orthdox christian neo-tsar. below are some curious facts and opinions that jumped at me.

1. who do you think authored this phrase ? 'a brief violation of a country's airspace should NEVER be the cause of an attack'. yep, it was sultan erdogan speaking to his pms in june 2012 following the syrians shooting down turkish f-4. all turkey apologists should review the historic fact. one can even find videos of the erdo-hoolihan speech.

2. this morning one of the nato for. ministers (surprise, surprise - he's greek) told russian for. minister that turkey violates greek airspace...1500 times a year. i had to dowble read to believe i read it right.

and how russia will respond ? here's what had been confirmed by the military sources. in addition to their cruiser moving to latakia shores with its s-300 air defence misses, they've announced moving to syria the newest s-400. google it if interested in what western pros think of the toy. more air superiority fighters are ordered in and up plus all military contacts with turkey seized. the sophisticated s-400 is more ominous than it seems to a laymen. just illumination of its radar beam means a de facto control of the turkish air activity.

other military options mentioned are arming syrian kurds, intensification of bombing of all turkey-sponsored rebels on the border, and imo plausible more muscle flexing to test the turks and, if the opportunity will be there, to shoot them down. i am sure it will be tried but in a cunning, covert manner so that the incident could be denied or quickly apologized for as an incident (using syrians, kurds etc)
 
Aug 5, 2009
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From the report I heard the Turks said that the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds ! This does not seem to be a long time to make the decision. Russian planes often skirt borders and even if they stray sometimes it usually just becomes a verbal warning. I guess Putin was never someone to bite his tongue and probably does not care but this time he is right. The Turkish border does not seem to be much of a border unless you are in a Russian plane it seems.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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movingtarget said:
From the report I heard the Turks said that the plane was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds ! This does not seem to be a long time to make the decision. Russian planes often skirt borders and even if they stray sometimes it usually just becomes a verbal warning. I guess Putin was never someone to bite his tongue and probably does not care but this time he is right. The Turkish border does not seem to be much of a border unless you are in a Russian plane it seems.
upthread i linked an american source quoting an american military - it was 2-3 seconds and russians published their own data that the plane was attcked 1 km inside syria by a turk that violated syrian airspace. whoevee evidence you take, it seems turkey was too trigger ready if not downright provocative.

here's what is verified known about the downed plane mission. it was returning to its airbase in latakia which is 45 km from the border. its path was east to west after it dropped its ordnance on the rebels. those bombers typically execute some maneuvering flying wide high arcs before landing so that they could avoid potential manpads of the rebels hiding on mountaintops. again, the plane was returning to its airbase empty.
---edit----
rather than crowd the thread with another post, i decided to add this exceptional interview with the former Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force. exceptional in its candidness and its difference with a chorus of small-minded nato-ites.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/11/24/lt-gen-mcinerney-turkey-shooting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

McInerney: Turkey Shooting Down Russian Plane Was a 'Very Bad Mistake'

at times, he sounds like putinn yesterday.

'it was pre-planned', 'i don't trust erdogan', 'under my command at norad, we'd NEVER do it' etc
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Anybody here heard about the Rojava revolution? Anyone heard about Rojava at all?

I hadn't either till today, when someone linked the very long article below. There are far too many excerpts that I could post, but I eventually chose the one below to whet your appetites about a secular Kurdish enclave in north-west Syria, aka Western Kurdistan, right next to Daesh. I can't recommend this amazing article highly enough, it's a real eye-opener.

Our destination was a sliver of land in the far north of Syria: Rojava, or ‘‘land where the sun sets.’’ The regime of President Bashar al-Assad doesn’t officially recognize Rojava’s autonomous status, nor does the United Nations or NATO — it is, in this way, just as illicit as the Islamic State. But if the reports I heard from the region were to be believed, within its borders the rules of the neighboring ISIS caliphate had been inverted. In accordance with a philosophy laid out by a leftist revolutionary named Abdullah Ocalan, Rojavan women had been championed as leaders, defense of the environment enshrined in law and radical direct democracy enacted in the streets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
 
Sep 25, 2009
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israel is building more settlements ? frankly and w/o any mocking it is an old news which will persist as long as europe, the us and russia continue their symbolic disapproval in stead of meaningful, hurtful sanctions ...

imo, far more important atm is french president's round of high level meetings attempting to form a meaningful anti-isil coalition. it is an open secret that can be read in the french media - hollande was disappointed with obama yesterday. it appears it was less so meeting mutter angela. today he is meeting vlad and i expect some surprising announcement in their follow up joint press conference. no i don't have 'special connections', i just feel that the french fury at the barbarian acts of isil is deep enough to shake their president into a finally decisive actions...

also interesting was the high-ranking german foreign office official statement (sorry, i cant recall the name nor the german source) about an unpredictable and dangerous nato ally. a clear reference to the turks and the shooting down of the plane...indeed, yesterday and today the russians pummeled the area where their pilot was killed in the air. this is a half dozen kms from the turkish border. undoubtedly, turkish surveillance radars across the border were screaming 'foe'. the bombing destroyed a convoy of lorries in the area controlled by the turkey-supported rebels calling themselves, turkmen and said to deliver a humanitarian aid from turkey. 7 drivers are reported dead.

it smells escalation while the diplomatic rhetoric from both the russians and the turks isn't showing DE-escalation...
 
Jun 22, 2009
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python said:
it smells escalation while the diplomatic rhetoric from both the russians and the turks isn't showing DE-escalation...

Erdogan has flatly refused to apologize or show any contrition, despite his supposed desire to 'de-escalate'. On the contrary, he doubled down and said the Russians should apologize for violating..blah, blah etc. and so on.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Amsterhammer said:
python said:
it smells escalation while the diplomatic rhetoric from both the russians and the turks isn't showing DE-escalation...

Erdogan has flatly refused to apologize or show any contrition, despite his supposed desire to 'de-escalate'. On the contrary, he doubled down and said the Russians should apologize for violating..blah, blah etc. and so on.
yeah, i mean that too. i try to stay on the top of THE story, thought admittedly i am getting fatigued...

perhaps you read already that there was a telecon btwn the ru and tu foreign minsters, where according to lavrov, a lukewarm apology was offered.

today, though, putin at a public reception of some new envoys in moscow clearly elevated the stakes to a level erdogan will NEVER imo accept - to sooth russia an apology at the highest level, a compensation to the dead pilot family and a framework in place to prevent such incidents MUST be in place. the implication is crystal clear - russia considers the rebels that killed their pilot in the air directly supported by the turkish military. some of their journos went as far as accusing turkey of helping to preposition the turkmen rebels in order to catch the 2 downed pilots. i dont know how true is that, but they are referring to cross-border communication btwn the rebels and the turks interdicted by the russians....

in addition, to pour more oil on the fire, besides the already announced sanctions (a ban on tourism to turkey, blocking some food and produce imports) vlad gave his govt 2 days to come up with a set of more economic measures to roll back their very substantial trade. needles to mention turkeys huge dependence on russian natural gas (60%) and russia's total dependence on the strait...

a clash of 2 authoritarian egos is imo strongly to blame...

i also have a hunch that putin would not be called vlad if he did not already start plotting a PURELY MILITARY revenge. a slow and unexpected one - always at his choice of timing and place. it could anything from downing their plane, to arming kurds, to pummeling their 'rebels' or a combination...
 
Jul 4, 2009
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.....speaking of quagmires....Russia is supposed to be entering one by actively supporting Assad....but if you take a wee peek back thru the last little while it would appear the forces of democracy and apple pie have been drowning in a moral quagmire of their own making for quite a while....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" This incident has revealed what the real sides are in the Syrian civil war: who is fighting whom, and for what. The Russian plane crashed into Syrian territory and one of the pilots was shot from the skies as he parachuted: this barbaric act was captured on video by the rebels, who are being reported as affiliated with the Turkmen “10th Brigade.” This is just for public consumption, however: in reality, the area is controlled by an alliance of rebel forces dominated by the al-Nusra Front, which is the official Syrian affiliate of al-Qaeda. The jihadists took control of the area in March of this year, and it has been the focal point of recent fighting between al-Qaeda and Syrian government forces backed by the Russian air offensive.

Vice is reporting:

“Russia sent helicopters to search for the downed pilots. Syrian fighters later fired at a helicopter forcing it to make an emergency landing in a nearby government-held area, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said. A Syrian insurgent group, recipient of US Tow missiles, said its fighters hit the helicopter with an anti-tank missile.”

So here we have it: US-backed jihadists, including al-Qaeda, are using weapons supplied by Washington to fight the Russians and the Syrian government. A cozy arrangement, indeed.

As I’ve written here as long ago as the summer of 2012, Washington has effectively entered an alliance with al-Qaeda. And as I pointed out here more recently, our “war on terrorism” has turned into a war on Russia, a proxy war in Syria in which Washington is actively aiding its former enemies – the very same people who brought down the World Trade Center and attacked the Pentagon on September 11, 2001."

....from... http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/11/24/turkeys-stab-in-the-back/

...and here is the latest installment in quagmire building....

"The U.S. State Department does not exclude that the shooting of catapulted pilots of the Russian Su-24 by Syrian Turkmens was self-defense, said the official representative of the agency, Mark Toner, during a briefing."

....and lets remember this self defense action was executed while the pilots were parachuting to ground...

Cheers
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Re: Re:

python said:
Amsterhammer said:
python said:
it smells escalation while the diplomatic rhetoric from both the russians and the turks isn't showing DE-escalation...

Erdogan has flatly refused to apologize or show any contrition, despite his supposed desire to 'de-escalate'. On the contrary, he doubled down and said the Russians should apologize for violating..blah, blah etc. and so on.
yeah, i mean that too. i try to stay on the top of THE story, thought admittedly i am getting fatigued...

perhaps you read already that there was a telecon btwn the ru and tu foreign minsters, where according to lavrov, a lukewarm apology was offered.

today, though, putin at a public reception of some new envoys in moscow clearly elevated the stakes to a level erdogan will NEVER imo accept - to sooth russia an apology at the highest level, a compensation to the dead pilot family and a framework in place to prevent such incidents MUST be in place. the implication is crystal clear - russia considers the rebels that killed their pilot in the air directly supported by the turkish military. some of their journos went as far as accusing turkey of helping to preposition the turkmen rebels in order to catch the 2 downed pilots. i dont know how true is that, but they are referring to cross-border communication btwn the rebels and the turks interdicted by the russians....

in addition, to pour more oil on the fire, besides the already announced sanctions (a ban on tourism to turkey, blocking some food and produce imports) vlad gave his govt 2 days to come up with a set of more economic measures to roll back their very substantial trade. needles to mention turkeys huge dependence on russian natural gas (60%) and russia's total dependence on the strait...

a clash of 2 authoritarian egos is imo strongly to blame...

i also have a hunch that putin would not be called vlad if he did not already start plotting a PURELY MILITARY revenge. a slow and unexpected one - always at his choice of timing and place. it could anything from downing their plane, to arming kurds, to pummeling their 'rebels' or a combination...

...me myself I think many Kurds may soon find Christmas will come early...the X-mas trees will have lots of new shiny toys under them....

Cheers
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Re:

blutto said:
.....speaking of quagmires....Russia is supposed to be entering one by actively supporting Assad....but if you take a wee spent back it would the forces of democracy and apple pie are drowning in a moral quagmire of their own making for quite a while....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" This incident has revealed what the real sides are in the Syrian civil war: who is fighting whom, and for what. The Russian plane crashed into Syrian territory and one of the pilots was shot from the skies as he parachuted: this barbaric act was captured on video by the rebels, who are being reported as affiliated with the Turkmen “10th Brigade.” This is just for public consumption, however: in reality, the area is controlled by an alliance of rebel forces dominated by the al-Nusra Front, which is the official Syrian affiliate of al-Qaeda. The jihadists took control of the area in March of this year, and it has been the focal point of recent fighting between al-Qaeda and Syrian government forces backed by the Russian air offensive.

Vice is reporting:

“Russia sent helicopters to search for the downed pilots. Syrian fighters later fired at a helicopter forcing it to make an emergency landing in a nearby government-held area, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said. A Syrian insurgent group, recipient of US Tow missiles, said its fighters hit the helicopter with an anti-tank missile.”

So here we have it: US-backed jihadists, including al-Qaeda, are using weapons supplied by Washington to fight the Russians and the Syrian government. A cozy arrangement, indeed.

As I’ve written here as long ago as the summer of 2012, Washington has effectively entered an alliance with al-Qaeda. And as I pointed out here more recently, our “war on terrorism” has turned into a war on Russia, a proxy war in Syria in which Washington is actively aiding its former enemies – the very same people who brought down the World Trade Center and attacked the Pentagon on September 11, 2001."

....from... http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/11/24/turkeys-stab-in-the-back/

...and here is the latest installment in quagmire building....

"The U.S. State Department does not exclude that the shooting of catapulted pilots of the Russian Su-24 by Syrian Turkmens was self-defense, said the official representative of the agency, Mark Toner, during a briefing."

....and lets remember this self defense action was executed while the pilots were parachuting to ground...

Cheers

they could have landed on them, and that could leave a mark !!!
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Re: Re:

blutto said:
...me myself I think many Kurds may soon find Christmas will come early...the X-mas trees will have lots of new shiny toys under them....

Cheers

Apropos...if you haven't done so, go back a page and read my Kurdish post from yesterday.
 
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