World Politics

[blutto]

The Islamophobes are betraying themselves.

They claim that the Molembeek area of Brussels did not assimilate** to our culture because you don't easily get beers there, as if that was something negative.

However the Abdeslam brothers owned a pub in Molenbeek where alcohol was pumping out, where you smoked fags or weed, where you could listen to rap music, etc. So the conclusion is, according to these Islamophobes' standards, terrorists are perfectly assimilated to our culture. That is actually what I have always claimed and been laughed at on these boards. The liberal education and environment that Europe has evolved to, because of Enlightenment philosophers and May '68 thinking, produced decerebrated individuals without any notion of social duties and respect for the neighbourhood. Props to this poster for betraying himself.

Worth pointing out as well that these terrorists did not commit their acts to serve God or whatever but strictly for the money, like any good atheists. But I guess I did not have to repeat that, you all knew it of course.

You can't easily get beers in Molenbeek (which is factually wrong by the way, I'm in Brussels), that would be a blessing, of course. It actually reminds me of an analysis that Luiza Narvaez, the former Duchess of Valencia, made about Belgium when she wrote a biography of Leon Degrelle. Marxism has transformed respectful Catholic feasts into mere carousals in which beer was pumping out. And that is still true today. The Marxist/Trotskyist ideology damaged the working class in such a way that it turned it into consumers (of beer for example) instead of responsible family people. In other words, Marxism made them dépendent on capitalism instead of being rebels. In other words, they became useful idiots. And this is still absolutely true today...

**The so-called French assimilation model is actually not French, it's Jacobine/Republican. The pre-1789 monarchs never cared to "assimilate". You had to be a Catholic, that's all. The Baron of Saint-Castin (1652-1707) married the daughter of an Amerindian chief and she came to the court of Louis XIV. No problem of integratiopn and of racism whatsoever.

In the secularist era, however, you had to "assimilate" which, as Eric Zemmour pointed out (in his opinion, it's positive but he's just insane), it means "to make the same". It means that we should all be the same people, think the same way, etc. This very much looks like the school of the Republic of the late 19th century, the one which colonized all Africa because Africans had to be like us, because "the superior races had duties towards the inferior races" (said the leading Republican leader Jules Ferry in that era), the Republican school that presented the pre-1789 as "Dark Ages", etc. etc.*** Of course, these people do not respect family values. Assimilation is a way for the Republicans to make sure that second generation migrants disavow their families and become atomised individuals without any roots, without any environment, without any social duties. Pure consumers, fitting in the liberal/libertarian system.

***It all reminds me of the clip of Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall (long time I haven't heard it ) with all the pupils wearing the same masks and then crushed by a factory machine. The mask motive definitely epitomises the will to conformism, the make the pupil look all alike. It's scary.

These days in Italy Oriana Fallaci's writings are frequently being reevaluated. Her anti-Islam rhetoric is, however, not being set against her fervent support of Bush's war in Iraq, which is at the origin of many of our actual troubles.

Truly amazing that all these Iraq War advocates in Europe are leftist and die-hard Islamophobes. I don't believe in coïncidences. Always consolidâtes my theories of course.

....for those who generally write off Echoes' comments please take the time to look this over there is good stuff in here....

....and btw, in most cases its the same coincidence springing from the same root cause...so yeah....

Cheers

 

[Brullnux]

@Echoes
While your post is very interesting and good, I'm not sure the fact that everything is blamed on atheists/republicans/leftists is correct. You refuse to acknowledge the many catholic Islamophobes, and religion is never blamed for anything. The Iraq War was orchestrated by two Christian neo-liberal politicians: Blair and Bush. This is not brought up. Neither is the fact that the colonialists of 1800's were almost all Christians.

There was no problem of integration in Louis XIV as there were no immigrants, bar the occasional one. How are we to know there wasn't any racism? i don't think we have her point of view.

 

[blutto]

....some stuff from another perspective....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oh how much I wish most people in the West could understand Russian read the Russians newspapers, watch Russian talkshows or listen to Russian conferences! They would see something which they have been conditioned to consider impossible: far from fearing the West, most Russians find it crippled with narrow-minded consumerism, devoid from any real moral or ethical values, fantastically ignorant and provincial and suffering from terminal infantilism. Even the tiny pro-Western minority has now given up on defending the West and, at most, it retorts against the typical tsunami of anti-western arguments something like “what about us – are we not as bad?” or even “let’s not sink down to their level!”. It is quite amazing to see that happening in a country which used to almost worship anything western just 20-30 years ago! I should add that if the most despised and ridiculed country must, of course, be Poland, France is not far behind in the list of “most pathetic”, As for the USA, it is the least despised adversary simply because most Russian respect the US for defending whatever it perceives has its national interests and for making Europe it’s “***”. The Russians always say that to get something done one must talk to the USA and not waste time with its European colony."

....and...

"What about the “Indispensable Nation”:

I realize that bashing the USA is always a popular exercise, but for all my hostility to the AngloZionist Empire I also have to admit that the US is in a very bad and complicated position: it has created a bloody mess (literally), then it painted itself into a political corner, and all of its so-called ‘regional allies’ are, I believe, inherently disloyal and pursue their own interests. If you look at the relationship between the USA, on one hand, and countries like Turkey, Qatar, the KSA or Israel on the other, it really is hard to establish who uses whom and whether what we are seeing is a case of a tail wagging the dog. Take Qatar: there is no doubt that the presence of CENTCOM in Qatar gave the Qatari a strong sense of impunity which, in turn, bred arrogance and, frankly, irresponsibility. The Qatari wanted Assad “out” so they could get their gas to the Mediterranean, but now they are directly involved in the bombing of a Russian airliner. As for their much wanted pipeline, they can forget it for at least a decade now. How smart was that? More relevantly: is Qatar a good ally for the USA? What about Turkey which is actively supporting, financing, equipping and training Daesh (and al-Qaeda – same difference!) under the convenient protection of NATO. They apparently cannot decide which is worse: Assad or the Kurds, and since they fear them both, they end up in bed with liver-eating sociopaths. Is that a good ally for the USA? I won’t even go into the Israeli issue – we all know that AIPAC runs Congress and the Neocons try run the White House. None of which elicits any big love or loyalty from the Israelis who are constantly looking at the “Russian option” (partnering up with Russia) to get things done in the Middle-East. Besides, since the slow-mo genocide of Palestinians by the Ziocrazies currently in power is continuing, being allied to the Israelis means being hated by everybody else. Still, at least and unlike the other “regional allies” of the USA, the Israeli regime itself is stable, fairly predictable and can unleash an immense amount of violence. So compared to the Saudis, the Israelis look outright attractive. Still, at the end of the day, the USA has to try to get out of this mess without alienating its allies too much, but also without being manipulated by them."

....from... http://www.unz.com/tsaker/week-seven-of-the-russian-intervention-in-syria-dramatic-surge-in-intensity/

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....a lot has been said about ISIS and their cash cow, oil , and how the US and its allies can't seem to , uhhh, "deal" with it....as in bomb ISIS oil business into oblivion.....find below some thoughts on that....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The bombshell: Daesh’s cash, “as we have established, comes from 40 countries and, there are some of the G20 members among them.” It doesn’t take a Caltech genius to figure out which members. They’d better take the “you can run but you can’t hide” message seriously.

Additionally, Putin debunked – graphically – to the whole G20 the myth of a Washington seriously engaged on the fight against Daesh: “I’ve shown our colleagues photos taken from space and from aircraft which clearly demonstrate the scale of the illegal trade in oil.” He was referring to Daesh’s oil smuggling tanker truck fleet, which numbers over 1,000.

Apparently acting on Russian satellite intelligence, the Pentagon then miraculously managed to find tanker truck convoys stretching “beyond the horizon,” smuggling out stolen Syrian oil. And duly bombed 116 trucks. For the first time. And this in over a year that the ‘Coalition of the Dodgy Opportunists’ (CDO) is theoretically fighting Daesh. The only such bombing that happened before was by the Iraqi Air Force.

The US “strategy”, which Obama recently turbocharged, is to bomb (aging) Syrian oil infrastructure currently expropriated and exploited by Daesh. Technically, this is the property of Damascus, and thus belongs to “the Syrian people.”

And yet Washington seemed so far to be more focused on other “people” who could make a bundle rebuilding the devastated infrastructure, disaster capitalism-style, in case “Assad must go” works."

....and...

"Russia once again went straight to the point. Bomb the transportation network – the oil truck convoys – not the oil infrastructure. That will eventually drive oil smugglers out of business.

The key reason the Obama administration had not thought about this before is Turkey. Washington needs NATO member Ankara for the use of the Incirlik air base. And then there’s the sensitive subject of who profits from Daesh’s oil smuggling.

Turkish Socialist party member Gursel Tekin has established that Daesh’s smuggled oil is exported to Turkey by BMZ, a shipping company controlled by none other than Bilal Erdogan, son of “Sultan” Erdogan. At a minimum, this violates UN Security Council resolution 2170. Under the light of Putin’s message of going after anyone or any entity engaged in facilitating Daesh’s operations, Erdogan’s clan better come up with some really good excuses."

...from... http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/20/in-the-fight-against-isis-russia-aint-taking-no-prisoners/

Cheers

 

[blackcat]

i reckon this virus (unfortunately it infected some muslims) breeds and spreads not much different than other extreme ideologies. we humans are yet to understand why some of us can behave like animals and why radicalization and militancy can infect even the civilized and 'cultured' en mass. the nazi past and its spread into the minds of millions may serve as an example.

sociology 101. we are a tribal breed.

and we lack agency and autonomy, even tho we like to think we do. A very minor element do have agency.

we seek the tribe, we seek guidance, we seek instruction. These inputs can foment a very destructive sentiment. Add technology and access to weapons and killing machines, these are the combustible variables required on the platter.

Now, the devil's advocate, is that thesis by the Harvard Canadian American psychologist and philosopher, Steven Pinker, whose statistical analysis indicates the race is now less violent than in any time in history. P'raps, and I am sure he has referred to all the variables, but p'raps thee are a few variables that can govern the present "stability". (that was not ironic btw, just extrapolating Pinker.) Even reading Zinn and Smedley Butler and the history of US adventurism over the past century, what is the counter-factual, the world without DC ceteris paribus (all things being equal)?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Washington needs NATO member Ankara for the use of the Incirlik air base. And then there’s the sensitive subject of who profits from Daesh’s oil smuggling.

America dont need Ankara to hold their air base and other bases in Turkey, like in Okinawa eh Glenn, they will do what they want to do, and you wont be moving the pentagon's lily pads from Turkey

 

[blackcat]

However, when we sing the Marseilles do we, or do we not, defend its values of liberty, equality and fraternity? That is when we sing are we making a serious reflection on what is meant by a responsible exercise of those values, or to the contrary are we merely being hypocritical (the opposite of politically correct)? Perhaps, then, rather than the enth call to arms, we should rethink "us," our history, the mistakes that the West has made.

its a simulacrum.

#jesuischarlie
#hashtags
#twitter
#simulacra

my name aint really charlie its chris just incase you conflate it #Poe'slaw

 

[blackcat]

without considering in the least the repercussions for eliminating them. Question: why weren't those consequences evaluated? One suspects that other, even stronger, interests gained the upper hand for their elimination, no matter how sinister.

nah they considered them alright. The shadow gov't on the beltway, the think w@nks[sic] producing the papers to be relevant and shift policy, and K-Street lobbying for Boeing and Northrop Grumman, you dont need Cheney at Haliburton for it to happen exactly as it happened, that is just the small cog. The bigger ones are your Brookings, RAND, WINEP, PNAC, the other Acronym'ed[sic] and actonymed[sic neologism] thinktanks...

 

[rhubroma]

The Islamophobes are betraying themselves.

They claim that the Molembeek area of Brussels did not assimilate** to our culture because you don't easily get beers there, as if that was something negative.

However the Abdeslam brothers owned a pub in Molenbeek where alcohol was pumping out, where you smoked fags or weed, where you could listen to rap music, etc. So the conclusion is, according to these Islamophobes' standards, terrorists are perfectly assimilated to our culture. That is actually what I have always claimed and been laughed at on these boards. The liberal education and environment that Europe has evolved to, because of Enlightenment philosophers and May '68 thinking, produced decerebrated individuals without any notion of social duties and respect for the neighbourhood. Props to this poster for betraying himself.

Worth pointing out as well that these terrorists did not commit their acts to serve God or whatever but strictly for the money, like any good atheists. But I guess I did not have to repeat that, you all knew it of course.

You can't easily get beers in Molenbeek (which is factually wrong by the way, I'm in Brussels), that would be a blessing, of course. It actually reminds me of an analysis that Luiza Narvaez, the former Duchess of Valencia, made about Belgium when she wrote a biography of Leon Degrelle. Marxism has transformed respectful Catholic feasts into mere carousals in which beer was pumping out. And that is still true today. The Marxist/Trotskyist ideology damaged the working class in such a way that it turned it into consumers (of beer for example) instead of responsible family people. In other words, Marxism made them dépendent on capitalism instead of being rebels. In other words, they became useful idiots. And this is still absolutely true today...

**The so-called French assimilation model is actually not French, it's Jacobine/Republican. The pre-1789 monarchs never cared to "assimilate". You had to be a Catholic, that's all. The Baron of Saint-Castin (1652-1707) married the daughter of an Amerindian chief and she came to the court of Louis XIV. No problem of integratiopn and of racism whatsoever.

In the secularist era, however, you had to "assimilate" which, as Eric Zemmour pointed out (in his opinion, it's positive but he's just insane), it means "to make the same". It means that we should all be the same people, think the same way, etc. This very much looks like the school of the Republic of the late 19th century, the one which colonized all Africa because Africans had to be like us, because "the superior races had duties towards the inferior races" (said the leading Republican leader Jules Ferry in that era), the Republican school that presented the pre-1789 as "Dark Ages", etc. etc.*** Of course, these people do not respect family values. Assimilation is a way for the Republicans to make sure that second generation migrants disavow their families and become atomised individuals without any roots, without any environment, without any social duties. Pure consumers, fitting in the liberal/libertarian system.

***It all reminds me of the clip of Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall (long time I haven't heard it ) with all the pupils wearing the same masks and then crushed by a factory machine. The mask motive definitely epitomises the will to conformism, the make the pupil look all alike. It's scary.

These days in Italy Oriana Fallaci's writings are frequently being reevaluated. Her anti-Islam rhetoric is, however, not being set against her fervent support of Bush's war in Iraq, which is at the origin of many of our actual troubles.

Truly amazing that all these Iraq War advocates in Europe are leftist and die-hard Islamophobes. I don't believe in coïncidences. Always consolidâtes my theories of course.

In the colonies they were being led by a religious imperative. You do remember the bulls of Alexender VI or no?

Oriana Fallaci was on the right. No, Echoes, we don't have to think the same, but we do need to get along. This isn't only rational, but physiologocal, the moment that we are by now "global." You can bemoan this fact, but you can't change it. So deal with it. The Middle Ages aren't coming back. Catholicism has irrevocably lost its hegemony. Rome, the comunis patria, is over, however it may be attractive in Belgium, under beers made in the Abbey; nor is it going to spring forth again in the cells of Saint Benedict of Nursia (however many American sacerdotes there may be). It is a nice fary-tail, but nothing more.

I will acknowledge though a certain leveling of the field, a certain appalling conservatism that has been rendered, not by secularism, but by a terrible consumerism, which, unfortunately, seems also to be the vapid lifestyle the West has generated. Everyone "must" go to the malls and go out of their minds with the same useless materialism. Such is the effect of the market religion Blackcat has identified. And I will give credit for Pope Francis denouncing this lifestyle, for which he has made many enemies among Catholics in the US, who don't even have to belong to a radical sect like yourself. Such US Catholics are invariable on the right, not the left, however.

 

[rhubroma]

without considering in the least the repercussions for eliminating them. Question: why weren't those consequences evaluated? One suspects that other, even stronger, interests gained the upper hand for their elimination, no matter how sinister.

nah they considered them alright. The shadow gov't on the beltway, the think w@nks[sic] producing the papers to be relevant and shift policy, and K-Street lobbying for Boeing and Northrop Grumman, you dont need Cheney at Haliburton for it to happen exactly as it happened, that is just the small cog. The bigger ones are your Brookings, RAND, WINEP, PNAC, the other Acronym'ed[sic] and actonymed[sic neologism] thinktanks...

In was pondering, however, I know they considered them alright.

 

[blutto]

...well as long as we are talking Paris atrocities and assimilation and rule of law and madness and stuff...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Last week’s massacre in Paris was not, as almost every writer mistakenly claimed, the worst atrocity in the City Of Light since World War II.

As the renowned Mideast expert Robert Fisk quickly pointed out, an even worse atrocity occurred in Paris 54 years ago, on 17 October, 1961.

Paris chief Maurice Papon, a former Vichy official, who had sent over 1,000 Jews to their deaths during the war, unleashed his brutal riot squads on 30,000 Arab demonstrators calling for the independence of Algeria from French colonial rule. In an orgy of killing, some 200 Algerians were killed. Many were beaten senseless, then thrown from the Pont St. Michel bridge into the Seine River. 11,000 Algerians were arrested and cast into internment camps or a sports stadium."

....and...

"France’s long colonial rule in Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco, as well as most of West Africa, brought larger numbers of menial African workers to France. So, too, “harkis,” former soldiers in France’s Algerian Army. Their offspring form today’s underclass in France: poor, living in ghettos, victims of racism and bigotry against Muslims, unable to find work, steeped in petty crime and filled by sense of bitter hopelessness.

The Algerian War fought over 50 years ago has been forgotten in the West. But not by Europe’s or North Africa’s Muslims. Nor its sequel, Algeria’s gruesome civil war in the 1990 that killed hundreds of thousands. Back then, I warned it would one day spill over into Europe."


...from.. http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/eric-margolis/64890/the-first-paris-massacre

...btw the rest of the article is a real eye opener....

Cheers

 

[python]

i was just contemplating a post in the xc ski thread after catching up with the weekend's events, then i heard in the background (on france 24 which is on at this time in our house) that senator mccain will be interviewed.

not that i expected much, but i learned that the islamic state is the consequence of ...assad and its supporter vlad. i also heard from the aging former pilot that france is wrong coordinating with vlad fighting isis until that evildoer gets out of ukraine. his suggestions to fix the isil problem, imo, suggest the chap has become a vegetable in his advanced age. any other interpretation must end with him being a conscientious idiot.

i will limit myself to this...

 

[blackcat]

without considering in the least the repercussions for eliminating them. Question: why weren't those consequences evaluated? One suspects that other, even stronger, interests gained the upper hand for their elimination, no matter how sinister.

nah they considered them alright. The shadow gov't on the beltway, the think w@nks[sic] producing the papers to be relevant and shift policy, and K-Street lobbying for Boeing and Northrop Grumman, you dont need Cheney at Haliburton for it to happen exactly as it happened, that is just the small cog. The bigger ones are your Brookings, RAND, WINEP, PNAC, the other Acronym'ed[sic] and actonymed[sic neologism] thinktanks...

In was pondering, however, I know they considered them alright.

yes, my rhetoric was rhetorical... #poe'sLaw, guess the burden falls on my for clarity sans ambiguity[pleonasm]

the implicit snark/aggression was backlash to thinktanks and DC and beltway, just the response to the quotes did not make implicit

 

[fatandfast]

Re:

i was just contemplating a post in the xc ski thread after catching up with the weekend's events, then i heard in the background (on france 24 which is on at this time in our house) that senator mccain will be interviewed.

not that i expected much, but i learned that the islamic state is the consequence of ...assad and its supporter vlad. i also heard from the aging former pilot that france is wrong coordinating with vlad fighting isis until that evildoer gets out of ukraine. his suggestions to fix the isil problem, imo, suggest the chap has become a vegetable in his advanced age. any other interpretation must end with him being a conscientious idiot.

i will limit myself to this...

McCain and others just pass over the fact that we started the endless gulf war and start a title wave of instability that only grows. He doesn't reflect on "his" war and how the US normalized relations to a great end to citizens on both sides.
We started a new in every area, Iran, Iraq,Libya, Yemen, Egypt..to name a few.
He never said sh!t about pushing for Turkey to be an EU member and now what was once a fantastic secular ally is now back and forth to extremes. McCain of anybody should praise any politics that involves a coalition of any kind. he should also be happy that the US would possibly gain any working relationship with a Muslim country, even if that is Iran.

McCain was part of politics that shook hands with the Shah,Mubarak,Gadhafi and a bunch of other thugs, equal to or more evil than Putin. China and Russia have both slaughtered Muslim splinter groups within both before and after they had any terrorist activity. Mc Cain and all his other aged leaders should look at their track record before proclaiming what does and does not work, who and who not to share a bed with

 

[Echoes]

@Echoes
While your post is very interesting and good, I'm not sure the fact that everything is blamed on atheists/republicans/leftists is correct. You refuse to acknowledge the many catholic Islamophobes, and religion is never blamed for anything. The Iraq War was orchestrated by two Christian neo-liberal politicians: Blair and Bush. This is not brought up. Neither is the fact that the colonialists of 1800's were almost all Christians.

There was no problem of integration in Louis XIV as there were no immigrants, bar the occasional one. How are we to know there wasn't any racism? i don't think we have her point of view.

Thanks for being more tolerant that the average posters of this thread. Much obliged.

I however do acknowledge the fact that many people who claim to be Catholic are Islamophobes and they are doing a dirty job because it's quite obvious that we should be together against the secularist and liberals. Of course there are divergences between Catholicism and Islam with regards to the Divinity of Christ but that's just a spiritual dispute. With regards to all kinds of temporal matters, Catholicism and Islam have a lot in common: such as an economy based on savings, the control over passions (which they call the "Great Jihad"), family values, hospitality, etc. Muslims see Islam as some sort of an extension of Christianism. Jesus exists in the Koran and is very much respected (despite the fact He's not considered the Son of God, He's an important prophet) and even Mary portrayed with beautiful words in the Koran. The two are trashed in the Jewish Talmud !!

I can see how liberals trash Islam. I give them credit for consistency. But in the world we are living in today, Catholics should make peace with Muslims and focus on what unite them.

I stand by what I said. The Iraq War was not orchestrated by Bush and leftist Blair but by neocons who had invested the Pentagon and have no relation with Christianity even in its Protestant variety. Robert Kagan is a die-hard atheist neocon who played a major role in the Iraq War and husband of Victoria Nuland, the putschist of Ukraine in Obama's administration.

The colonialists of the 19th century were mainly liberals and secularists, and for some overt atheist. Jules Ferry is the main architect of the French colonial empire, who said "the superior races have a duty towards the inferior races" (I know I already said it but it's important to remember that). At the same time, he was the founding father of the secular "school of the Republic" which aimed at "taking God away from the heart of the people". Of course he was a leading Freemasonic figure.

In Belgium, the Leopoldian Congo was built up by liberals like King Leopold II himself, the Freemason Albert Thys and the explorer Henry Morton Stanley (a bully of the worst order). Stanley was a Liberal Unionist, which means those Liberals who refused to grant autonomy to Ireland. Alfred Milner also was a Liberal Unionist, so were many of the colonialists from the so-called "Milner Kindergarten" (read Caroll Quigley's "The Anglo-American Establishment"). This being said, in Britain, the Conservatives played a role in the building of the Empire but this can't be said about the French Empire. In France, the Conservatives criticised it.

In feudal Europe, you at least had no institutional racism. That's for sure. There had of course been racist clashes here or there but the regime did not tolerate racism. An edict of Richelieu stated that all baptised Amerindians could be subjects of the King, on par with the white-skinned European subjects. While you Brits considered them as sub-humans.

In Acadia, the French were welcomed by the Indians. An old Odawa descendant said it in Kevin Costner's doco "500 Nations": "We had a very close affinity to the French people. The reason is because they had no designs on our territory. They were not out to colonise. If they wanted to live with us, they married into the tribe and they lived with us and they were welcome. On the other hand [...] the English are notorious for being colonists. They don't want the sun to set on the British Empire. So they want colonies everywhere. [...] That's why they came."

That's why during the French & Indian War, most Indian tribes allied with the French (who were demonised in "The Last of the Mohicans", especially in the film). The French Catholics managed to make peace between Indian tribes at the Great Peace of Montreal in 1701 and in the years of the Acadian deportation, those Acadians who stayed in the "New France" had to hide in the forests and were helped by the local Indian tribes.

We are very far from the massive Indian genocide perpetrated by American secularists (such as Andrew Jackson) in the 19th century.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

i was just contemplating a post in the xc ski thread after catching up with the weekend's events, then i heard in the background (on france 24 which is on at this time in our house) that senator mccain will be interviewed.

not that i expected much, but i learned that the islamic state is the consequence of ...assad and its supporter vlad. i also heard from the aging former pilot that france is wrong coordinating with vlad fighting isis until that evildoer gets out of ukraine. his suggestions to fix the isil problem, imo, suggest the chap has become a vegetable in his advanced age. any other interpretation must end with him being a conscientious idiot.

i will limit myself to this...

McCain and others just pass over the fact that we started the endless gulf war and start a title wave of instability that only grows. He doesn't reflect on "his" war and how the US normalized relations to a great end to citizens on both sides.
We started a new in every area, Iran, Iraq,Libya, Yemen, Egypt..to name a few.
He never said sh!t about pushing for Turkey to be an EU member and now what was once a fantastic secular ally is now back and forth to extremes. McCain of anybody should praise any politics that involves a coalition of any kind. he should also be happy that the US would possibly gain any working relationship with a Muslim country, even if that is Iran.

McCain was part of politics that shook hands with the Shah,Mubarak,Gadhafi and a bunch of other thugs, equal to or more evil than Putin. China and Russia have both slaughtered Muslim splinter groups within both before and after they had any terrorist activity. Mc Cain and all his other aged leaders should look at their track record before proclaiming what does and does not work, who and who not to share a bed with

Agree. He and others on the GOP create this incredible mess, then complain that the next administration doesn't fix it fast or good enough.

Another pearl from trump..
'thousands and thousands of arabs in Jersey cheering as the twin towers fell'...roundly debunked by many who were there.

Less government in your lives, unless you are muslim. 30% of the GOP voters in Iowa want to make the Muslim religion illegal...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/9/22/1423826/-30-percent-of-Republican-voters-in-Iowa-think-Islam-should-be-illegal

Never underestimate the ignorance of the american(GOP) voter.

A majority of respondents are either unfamiliar with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution—the part that says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"—or they're aware of it but just don't care, or they somehow think it only protects certain religions. Whether ignorance or hatred is at work, these answers are alarming in the extreme.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

@Echoes
While your post is very interesting and good, I'm not sure the fact that everything is blamed on atheists/republicans/leftists is correct. You refuse to acknowledge the many catholic Islamophobes, and religion is never blamed for anything. The Iraq War was orchestrated by two Christian neo-liberal politicians: Blair and Bush. This is not brought up. Neither is the fact that the colonialists of 1800's were almost all Christians.

There was no problem of integration in Louis XIV as there were no immigrants, bar the occasional one. How are we to know there wasn't any racism? i don't think we have her point of view.

Blair is catholic, GeorgeW is episopalian then married Laura in a Methodist Church but becomes evangelical and gives up the grog around the same time in Austin or whereever in Texas, p'raps there is hope for Lance now <satire>

And prolly Bush and Blair really dont believe, they believe in the culture of the church and their people and populace, but they really dont give two hoots about the god of their church.

 

[frenchfry]

Extract from Echos post:

Catholicism and Islam have a lot in common: such as an economy based on savings, the control over passions

What about the hundreds (thousands?) of Catholic priests that practise "control over passion" on a succession of young boys with the blessing and protection of their church?

And Muslim men that practise "control over passion" by imposing the niquab on their women in order that their (the men) passions don't overflow. No niquab = fair game.

Meanwhile the athiests are out there raping and consuming. All of them, without exception.

And in case you hadn't noticed, the French are some of the worst imperialists in history, despite (or because of?) their Catholic tradition.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Extract from Echos post:

Catholicism and Islam have a lot in common: such as an economy based on savings, the control over passions

What about the hundreds (thousands?) of Catholic priests that practise "control over passion" on a succession of young boys with the blessing and protection of their church?

And Muslim men that practise "control over passion" by imposing the niquab on their women in order that their (the men) passions don't overflow. No niquab = fair game.

Meanwhile the athiests are out there raping and consuming. All of them, without exception.

And in case you hadn't noticed, the French are some of the worst imperialists in history, despite (or because of?) their Catholic tradition.

this
the australian guy in the vatican, archbishop pell, utterly unsympathetic individual. protects all the criminal pedophiles. he himself is protected, he should be prosecuted for his information and being an accessory

 

[blackcat]

I have referenced Glennon before and his Double Government thesis, extrapolating on this, is Giraldi's deep state piece in NYTimes http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/11/06/do-secret-cabals-rule-more-than-the-imagination-in-turkey-and-egypt/americas-establishment-has-embraced-deep-states

 

[Semper Fidelis]

This place turned into Coleslaw.

What is the most moderate majority Islamic country? Indonesia? 18 % believe in honor killings for women who are raped or commit adultery. What a great place raise a family.

No idea what Okinawa has to do with the conversation up thread maybe it was a deflection.

Just more ways to bash Merikah I guess.

 

[VeloCity]

What a great place raise a family.

Many Europeans, Canadians, Australians, etc say the same about Merikah. Everything's relative.

 

[python]

in syria, we just got the first serious incident btwn a nato member and russia.

it is confirmed by both sides that about an hour ago, turkey shot down a russian fighter. turkey said it violated its airspace, russia said it was 'squarely' in syrian air space. their versions also differ in how it was downed. the turks say it was by their fighter, the russians insist it was by a ground fire.

this link gives both versions:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

it is interesting what will happen next...if the russians start shooting back, it will be technically an attack of a nato member with all the grim consequences.

i recall reading one recent article on the turkey's position. the author mentioned that russia and turkey fought 17 wars, all lost by the turks...revenge ?

 

[python]

following the incident, i was curious to learn more technical details, which msm don't report...here's what i found out in various open (both amateur and expert) sources..

the plane was a 2-seater su-24 fighter bomber with a variable-geometry wing. iow, it is capable of both a supersonic and low-level bombing. It was confirmed at 6000 meters when it was shot down. It is confirmed it went down on a syrian side of border which seems to favour the russian version. Both pilots catapulted and one is reported by the turks was captured by a rebel group...

why did it happen ? many commentators opine that turkey got tired of the russian incursions and toughened the rules of engagement. others retort that it was possibly a turkish provocation to send the russians a message - to stop bombing the turkey supported opposition groups that fight the syrian military near the turkish border. indeed, just yesterday turkish foreign office officially protested against the russian attacks on a turkey-supported group of rebels called turkomen operating right on the border.

regarding what brought the plane down - another fighter or a ground system...there is a very interesting assessment by one professional that it was 70% probability a turkish american-made hawk missile. he reckons that the sidewinder-armed turkish f-16 would have to get too close to kill which would alert the russians and their ground control...

interesting...perhaps turkey with the us concurrence decided to establish a no fly zone it always wanted but america as stubbornly opposed. if so, it's not the first and not the last plane that will be shot down in quick order.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

following the incident, i was curious to learn more technical details, which msm don't report...here's what i found out in various open (both amateur and expert) sources..

the plane was a 2-seater su-25 fighter bomber with a variable-geometry wing. iow, it is capable of both a supersonic and low-level bombing. It was confirmed at 6000 meters when it was shot down. It is confirmed it went down on a syrian side of border which seems to favour the russian version. Both pilots catapulted and one is reported by the turks was captured by a rebel group...

why did it happen ? many commentators opine that turkey got tired of the russian incursions and toughened the rules of engagement. others retort that it was possibly a turkish provocation to send the russians a message - to stop bombing the turkey supported opposition groups that fight the syrian military near the turkish border. indeed, just yesterday turkish foreign office officially protested against the russian attacks on a turkey-supported group of rebels called turkomen operating right on the border.

regarding what brought the plane down - another fighter or a ground system...there is a very interesting assessment by one professional that it was 70% probability a turkish american-made hawk missile. he reckons that the sidewinder-armed turkish f-16 would have to get too close to kill which would alert the russians and their ground control...

interesting...

SU-24, the Russian version of the US F-111. Aarvark-ski. First flew in the late 60s. Really old technology. An all weather bomber, not a fighter.

Could have been a sidewinder, sparrow or AAMRAM, last 2 radar guided and unlikely the SU-24 had RHAW gear to tell it it was locked on. AAMRAM fire and forget. If an F-16 did have ground control(likely), he could have visually acquired the SU-24(BIG airplane, smokey engines) and bagged him w/i 2 miles with a sidewinder. Really doubt the Russian aircraft have ground based radar control that far north..maybe...Russia doesn't have any of their AWACS, airborne radar control aircraft, in theater.

Wikipedia shows Turkey doesn't have Hawk missiles.

Both crew jumped out, one captured by Turk rebels.