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With Trump "deciding" to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US Embassy, Kushner still convinced he can broker a peace deal while effectively driving these decisions and the international community largely paying lip-service to what a bad decision this is, I thought this article nicely captures why a "Two-state" solution will never happen in the current political climate:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/david-morrison/israel-must-be-forced-to-end-occupation-otherwise-there-will-n
 
The reporting about Kushner's mindset on the Middle East is mind-boggling.
These days, close associates said, Kushner is primarily driven by one goal: to prove himself by delivering a Middle East peace deal many skeptics doubt he can close. He is banking on the hope that the opposition is just a facade — and that, privately, after a “cooling-off period,” Arab allies will continue to work with him on a peace plan he still expects to announce at some point in the early months of 2018.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/jared-kushner-trump-jerusalem-mideast-peace-283770?lo=ap_e1
 
Jul 5, 2009
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djpbaltimore said:
The reporting about Kushner's mindset on the Middle East is mind-boggling.
These days, close associates said, Kushner is primarily driven by one goal: to prove himself by delivering a Middle East peace deal many skeptics doubt he can close. He is banking on the hope that the opposition is just a facade — and that, privately, after a “cooling-off period,” Arab allies will continue to work with him on a peace plan he still expects to announce at some point in the early months of 2018.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/jared-kushner-trump-jerusalem-mideast-peace-283770?lo=ap_e1
It kind of depends... Clearly the current peace plan based on the Oslo accords is not moving forward in any measurable way. Borders, settlements, right of return, Jerusalem, and the two-state solution haven't been negotiated at all after a quarter century. If anything, things are going backwards with Israeli expansion continuing at a steady pace.

So if you want "peace", or any kind of solution, the current framework isn't functional. It's not going to happen. So how to move forward without angering Israel - which is political suicide in the US? I don't know if it was planned that way, but the best way to blow things up is to give someone what they want. In this case Jerusalem. Sure it's what they have wanted all along. Huzzah! But now they have to deal with the consequences. Kind of like giving a kid a puppy.

Now the US isn't the bad guy, but it forces the situation. Is it one state or two? Israel doesn't like either solution and has been kicking the can down the road for fifty years. Looks like that's going to change and fast. Notice that out of the five big issues, Jerusalem is perhaps the most divisive, but least damaging one to gift to Israel.

This could be a brilliant gambit.

John Swanson

I should also add that if one wanted to get Israel to shut up about war with Iran, this would be a perfect way to do it. Israel is going to be very busy for a while.
 
I would definitely agree that the talks were not on a trajectory towards peace before this move. Not even close.

What I would worry about is that Trump gave Israel something that they really wanted for seemingly* nothing in return (besides a small political bump among his base). This observation can't be lost on the leaders of Israel or Palestine.

*The notion that Trump may have gotten something in the negotiation that he wasn't willing to brag about publicly scares me even more.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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djpbaltimore said:
I would definitely agree that the talks were not on a trajectory towards peace before this move. Not even close.

What I would worry about is that Trump gave Israel something that they really wanted for seemingly* nothing in return (besides a small political bump among his base). This observation can't be lost on the leaders of Israel or Palestine.

*The notion that Trump may have gotten something in the negotiation that he wasn't willing to brag about publicly scares me even more.
The comforting thought is that for all the bluster, the apparatus of government isn't full of idiots. In fact, they're generally very smart people who have access to all the facts - the ones we'll never have. My sincerest wish is that this wasn't cynical pandering, but a brilliant move to "drain the swamp" by subverting the process in a dramatic way that will demand a response from all sides while minimizing the possibility of bloodshed.

All of a sudden Israel is faced with making an actual decision. Either squashing the notion of a Palestinian state and making everyone an Israeli, or allowing a Palestinian state with a capital in Jerusalem. The whole of the Israeli dynamics has centered around never having to make that choice. Blowing it up means that in a very short time everyone is going to be willing to negotiate for the first time.

John Swanson
 
When even a clown finds politics shameful -
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42264157
A professional clown in Brazil who ran for congress and won by a huge margin says he will not stand again in 2018.

Francisco Everardo Oliveira Silva, better known as Tiririca, is coming to the end of his second term in the Chamber of Deputies.

He complained that he was one of only eight out of more than 500 lawmakers who regularly turned up to sessions.

Tiririca said he was "ashamed" of his colleagues' behaviour and would return to being a full-time clown.

In his first speech since he was elected in 2010, Tiririca, whose stage name means Grumpy, said he was saddened by what he had seen in the lower house of congress.

"Everyone knows that we're paid well to work, but not everyone does work. There are 513 deputies, only eight come regularly. And I'm one of those eight, and I'm a circus clown."

In his eight-minute speech, he admitted that he had "not done much" during his almost seven years as a lawmaker, but he said: "At least I was here."
 
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
The reporting about Kushner's mindset on the Middle East is mind-boggling.
These days, close associates said, Kushner is primarily driven by one goal: to prove himself by delivering a Middle East peace deal many skeptics doubt he can close. He is banking on the hope that the opposition is just a facade — and that, privately, after a “cooling-off period,” Arab allies will continue to work with him on a peace plan he still expects to announce at some point in the early months of 2018.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/jared-kushner-trump-jerusalem-mideast-peace-283770?lo=ap_e1
It seems he either thinks the Arab states are children or that the US can bully them.
 
Re:

Robert5091 said:
When even a clown finds politics shameful -
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42264157
A professional clown in Brazil who ran for congress and won by a huge margin says he will not stand again in 2018.

Francisco Everardo Oliveira Silva, better known as Tiririca, is coming to the end of his second term in the Chamber of Deputies.

He complained that he was one of only eight out of more than 500 lawmakers who regularly turned up to sessions.

Tiririca said he was "ashamed" of his colleagues' behaviour and would return to being a full-time clown.

In his first speech since he was elected in 2010, Tiririca, whose stage name means Grumpy, said he was saddened by what he had seen in the lower house of congress.

"Everyone knows that we're paid well to work, but not everyone does work. There are 513 deputies, only eight come regularly. And I'm one of those eight, and I'm a circus clown."

In his eight-minute speech, he admitted that he had "not done much" during his almost seven years as a lawmaker, but he said: "At least I was here."
You couldn't make this story up. Says a lot about Brazil but I'm sure there are many others the same. It seems a grumpy clown can't find contentment ...........
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
djpbaltimore said:
The reporting about Kushner's mindset on the Middle East is mind-boggling.
These days, close associates said, Kushner is primarily driven by one goal: to prove himself by delivering a Middle East peace deal many skeptics doubt he can close. He is banking on the hope that the opposition is just a facade — and that, privately, after a “cooling-off period,” Arab allies will continue to work with him on a peace plan he still expects to announce at some point in the early months of 2018.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/jared-kushner-trump-jerusalem-mideast-peace-283770?lo=ap_e1
It seems he either thinks the Arab states are children or that the US can bully them.
He's probably conferring with the Russians as he shapes his genius plan.
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
King Boonen said:
djpbaltimore said:
The reporting about Kushner's mindset on the Middle East is mind-boggling.
These days, close associates said, Kushner is primarily driven by one goal: to prove himself by delivering a Middle East peace deal many skeptics doubt he can close. He is banking on the hope that the opposition is just a facade — and that, privately, after a “cooling-off period,” Arab allies will continue to work with him on a peace plan he still expects to announce at some point in the early months of 2018.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/jared-kushner-trump-jerusalem-mideast-peace-283770?lo=ap_e1
It seems he either thinks the Arab states are children or that the US can bully them.
He's probably conferring with the Russians as he shapes his genius plan.
In this case the US needs no help from anyone. Billions in funding to Israel in military aid. An ambassador to Israel that heads an anti-two-state solution organisation which provides millions to an illegal settlement and argues that they are legal. The same organisation that funds this settlement is one Jared Kushner's family charity donates to and he is meant to be unbiased and brokering a deal?

The US has never been non-partisan in this situation (and before people complain neither has the EU and especially the UK who must take on a huge amount of the blame for the situation to begin with) but they have never been so blatantly partisan before. The issue in the US is exacerbated as both fundamental Christians and Anti-Semites support Zionism, although for different reasons, and these groups have large sway within the US.

And what is the result of Trump's actions? Palestinians die, rockets are launched at Israel and trouble flares in other regions (particularly Beirut where there are large Palestinian refugee camps).
 
Sep 25, 2009
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the muted, yet widely reported news that america will veto the unsc resolution on the embassy moving to jerusalem was expected. what imo was under reported - or under emphasized - was that of the 15 current security council members (permanent and not) 14 voted 100% against the us position.

the 14 included the usual lap dogs and allies that hardly ever differed from the us united nations positions.

i wonder what happened to the us frequent utterances and referrals to the 'international community' isolating certain powers that america has a hard on for while in actuality it is the us that's increasingly getting isolated ?...

on environment, on iran, on north korea...even on certain aspects of its anti-russia psychosis...and now on jerusalem.

i am genuinely curious how many good and smart americans noticed the indisputable trend of their 'exceptional' country not only losing the moral superiority claim - that's a given after the endless illegal wars forking up the entire nations and regions - but more mundanely, 'the only superpower' being ignored and isolated ??

i will agree entirely that a clown like trump has greatly accelerated the trend. but i will also bet that most good and smart americans are outdated as to why it is so. they are mostly misinformed thru their msm - or dont want to venture - that it is their congress, both branches, that enabled, financed or did not stop the degradation.

pointing domestic fingers instead of a wider reflection is still a fave american sport :rolleyes:
 
Re:

python said:
the muted, yet widely reported news that america will veto the unsc resolution on the embassy moving to jerusalem was expected. what imo was under reported - or under emphasized - was that of the 15 current security council members (permanent and not) 14 voted 100% against the us position.

the 14 included the usual lap dogs and allies that hardly ever differed from the us united nations positions.

i wonder what happened to the us frequent utterances and referrals to the 'international community' isolating certain powers that america has a hard on for while in actuality it is the us that's increasingly getting isolated ?...

on environment, on iran, on north korea...even on certain aspects of its anti-russia psychosis...and now on jerusalem.

i am genuinely curious how many good and smart americans noticed the indisputable trend of their 'exceptional' country not only losing the moral superiority claim - that's a given after the endless illegal wars forking up the entire nations and regions - but more mundanely, 'the only superpower' being ignored and isolated ??

i will agree entirely that a clown like trump has greatly accelerated the trend. but i will also bet that most good and smart americans are outdated as to why it is so. they are mostly misinformed thru their msm - or dont want to venture - that it is their congress, both branches, that enabled, financed or did not stop the degradation.

pointing domestic fingers instead of a wider reflection is still a fave american sport :rolleyes:
Is it lost on you that four of those isolations are the byproduct of domestic political decisions by Trump? I.e. He created the trend, not accelerated it. (No idea what you are talking about in regards to Russia Pyschosis. I imagine that most of the council agrees with the US intelligence community.) Python's favorite sport is taking shots at Americans, so I would take anything written above with a large grain of salt.

Python Wrote:
i would not extend the parallel to ALL brown people BUT would stand by a personal observation that many 'browns' i met and befriended were superior to the white trash i met in america in droves.
viewtopic.php?p=2208910#p2208910
 
Bibi & Trump using the same M.O.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5059320,00.html
Speaking at Likud party event celebrating final night of Hanukkah, Netanyahu launches three-pronged attack against press, protesters and police over ‘waste of time and money’ spent on investigations against him; ‘so there will be indictments. So what?’

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu attacked the police on Tuesday evening for the string of ongoing corruption investigations being conducted against him, saying that “the majority of the recommendations made by the police are thrown to the garbage.”
“It is a waste of time, a waste of public money."
 
Sep 25, 2009
6,983
0
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Re: Re:

djpbaltimore said:
python said:
the muted, yet widely reported news that america will veto the unsc resolution on the embassy moving to jerusalem was expected. what imo was under reported - or under emphasized - was that of the 15 current security council members (permanent and not) 14 voted 100% against the us position.

the 14 included the usual lap dogs and allies that hardly ever differed from the us united nations positions.

i wonder what happened to the us frequent utterances and referrals to the 'international community' isolating certain powers that america has a hard on for while in actuality it is the us that's increasingly getting isolated ?...

on environment, on iran, on north korea...even on certain aspects of its anti-russia psychosis...and now on jerusalem.

i am genuinely curious how many good and smart americans noticed the indisputable trend of their 'exceptional' country not only losing the moral superiority claim - that's a given after the endless illegal wars forking up the entire nations and regions - but more mundanely, 'the only superpower' being ignored and isolated ??

i will agree entirely that a clown like trump has greatly accelerated the trend. but i will also bet that most good and smart americans are outdated as to why it is so. they are mostly misinformed thru their msm - or dont want to venture - that it is their congress, both branches, that enabled, financed or did not stop the degradation.

pointing domestic fingers instead of a wider reflection is still a fave american sport :rolleyes:
Is it lost on you that four of those isolations are the byproduct of domestic political decisions by Trump? I.e. He created the trend, not accelerated it. (No idea what you are talking about in regards to Russia Pyschosis. I imagine that most of the council agrees with the US intelligence community.) Python's favorite sport is taking shots at Americans, so I would take anything written above with a large grain of salt.

Python Wrote:
i would not extend the parallel to ALL brown people BUT would stand by a personal observation that many 'browns' i met and befriended were superior to the white trash i met in america in droves.
viewtopic.php?p=2208910#p2208910
the person here very lost is YOU. if you can't comprehend that nothing in the us get's moving without the congress either financing it or letting it, you are quite an incompetent (or more accurately) entrenched thinned skinned partisan american. trump was possible b/c people like you divide politics into black and white.

as to the totally out of context quote, sorry, it was stupid to bring it here. b/c it was a response to your blatantly racist statements. if you want to revisit THAT you need to go where it was appropriate. very small minded indeed.

you can imagine anything you wish when you talk to yourself in front of a mirror, but the 14 of 15 unsc members rejected your countries policicies. trump is a quintessential product of the ugly and corrupt political system that refuses to change...
 
Re: Re:

python said:
the person here very lost is YOU. if you can't comprehend that nothing in the us get's moving without the congress either financing it or letting it, you are quite an incompetent (or more accurately) entrenched thinned skinned partisan american. trump was possible b/c people like you divide politics into black and white.

as to the totally out of context quote, sorry, it was stupid to bring it here. b/c it was a response to your blatantly racist statements. if you want to revisit THAT you need to go where it was appropriate. very small minded indeed.

you can imagine anything you wish when you talk to yourself in front of a mirror, but the 14 of 15 unsc members rejected your countries policicies. trump is a quintessential product of the ugly and corrupt political system that refuses to change...
Trump can act unilaterally on the Paris climate agreement without any say from congress. Trump disavowed the Iran nuclear deal without any say from congress. Maybe you should update the term 'nothing', eh?

I could pick any of a handful of quotes of you casting big blankets on Americans. It seems like the major thing that you have learned about Americans is how you can stereotype them in derogatory ways. Own what you have written.

The fact that you can't link to any statement I made as being racist proves that you just made up that claim. Maybe you should stick to the biathlon/ XC skiing threads as you have promised to do instead of continually lobbing ad-homs in my direction. Or just admit that you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to what Americans think and feel.
 
Most in Europe consider the USA simultaneously the biggest superpower in the world and the biggest threat to world peace. And, more and more, their policies are beginning to differ. Israel is a general usa thing, as is nk, while iran and paris is a republican/trump driven thing. So trump is a big part of a side but it's foolish to think it's just him. When even the UK speaks out against the usa you know they've fcked up big time.

Fairly crucial vote in Catalunya today seems to have gone (just) to pro independence parties. It's a result effectively that will fix nothing and exacerbate divides. Maybe the worst possible outcome, as at least a 60/40 outcome for pro independence parties is a clear majority, and a win for anti-independence parties at least calms the Spanish govt a bit and increases stability.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/25/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-barred-from-running-for-president
Russian election officials on Monday formally barred Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny from running for president, prompting calls from him for a boycott of next year’s vote.

The central election commission decided unanimously that the anti-corruption crusader is not eligible to run.
Putin knows, that to be a real despot you have to get at least 98% of the vote.
 
Re:

Robert5091 said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/25/russian-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-barred-from-running-for-president
Russian election officials on Monday formally barred Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny from running for president, prompting calls from him for a boycott of next year’s vote.

The central election commission decided unanimously that the anti-corruption crusader is not eligible to run.
Putin knows, that to be a real despot you have to get at least 98% of the vote.
I suppose in Russia as government opposition, the fact that he is still alive or not in prison for life is a win. Certain journalists and others have not been so lucky.
 
Seems like "someone" is using economic problems for "other" ends ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42519054
The US says "the world is watching" how Iranian authorities respond to anti-government protests that have broken out in several cities.
...
The protests started in the north-eastern city of Mashhad - the country's second most-populous - on Thursday.

People there took to the streets to express anger at the government over high prices, and vented their fury against President Hassan Rouhani. Fifty-two people were arrested for chanting "harsh slogans".
...
There have been calls on social media for protests up and down the country, despite warnings from the government against illegal gatherings.

Demonstrations of varying sizes are reported to have occurred in at least seven cities.

Overall, the numbers said to be taking part range from a less than 100 in some places to thousands in others - but demonstrations do not appear to be taking place on a massive scale.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/12/29/547127/US-Israel-Iran-missile-nuclear-JCPOA-Trump
Senior officials from the United States and Israel have secretly met in Washington to hammer out a deal on confronting Iran on several fronts, a new report says.

The closed-door meeting, led by US National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster and his Israeli counterpart Meir Ben-Shabbat, took place at the White House on December 12, and the two sides agreed on forming joint teams to combat Iran in the Middle East region, Israeli media reported Thursday.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5063714,00.html
The outbreak of regional unrest reflects growing discontent over rising prices and alleged corruption, as well as concern over the Islamic Republic's costly involvement in regional conflicts such as Syria and Iraq.
...
In the central city of Isfahan, a resident said protesters joined a rally held by factory workers demanding back wages.

Purely political protests are rare in Iran, where security services are omnipresent. The last unrest of national significance occurred in 2009 when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's re-election as president ignited eight months of street protests. Pro-reform rivals said the vote was rigged.

But demonstrations are often held by workers over layoffs or non-payment of salaries and people who hold deposits in non-regulated, bankrupt financial institutions.

Alamolhoda, the representative of Ayatollah Khamenei in northeastern Mashhad, said a few people had taken advantage of Thursday's protests against rising prices to chant slogans against Iran's role in regional conflicts.

"Some people had came to express their demands, but suddenly, in a crowd of hundreds, a small group that did not exceed 50 shouted deviant and horrendous slogans such as 'Let go of Palestine,' 'Not Gaza, not Lebanon, I'd give my life (only) for Iran,'" Alamolhoda said.

Vice-President Eshaq Jahangiri, a close Rouhani ally, suggested that hardline conservative opponents of the pragmatist president might have triggered the protests.

"When a social and political movement is launched on the streets, those who started it will not necessarily be able to control it in the end," IRNA quoted Jahangiri as saying. "Those who are behind such events will burn their own fingers. They think they will hurt the government by doing so."
... and the Government has it's own rallies ...

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5063799,00.html
Annual nationwide pro-government rallies were held in Iran on Saturday to mark the end of the unrest that shook the country in 2009, state media reported, a day after price protests turned political in a dozen cities.

State television showed a rally in the capital Tehran and marchers carrying banners in support of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in Iran's second largest city of Mashhad.
 
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/contents/afp/2017/12/iran-demonstration-politics-us.html
Iran says Trump support for protests 'deceitful'


Iran said on Saturday that US President Donald Trump's support for protests in the country was "deceitful and opportunist".

"The Iranian people see no value in the opportunistic remarks by American officials and Mr Trump," foreign ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi said on its website. He said Iranians remembered Trump's actions in barring them from entry to the United States and "the arrest of many Iranians in that country on baseless pretexts". "That's why they see the support of these officials for some rallies in recent days in some Iranian cities as opportunistic," he added. "The constitution of the Islamic republic of Iran has established democratic structures for the legal support of people's civil demands," he said.

Trump tweeted on Friday night in support of protests against Iran's economic problems that had spread to several towns and cities in Iran. "Many reports of peaceful protests by Iranian citizens fed up with regime's corruption & its squandering of the nation's wealth to fund terrorism abroad," he wrote.

"Iranian govt should respect their people's rights, including right to express themselves. The world is watching! #IranProtests."
Trump looking for excuses to not certify JCPOA and get out of it?
 
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