World Politics

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No problem on gay marriage. Should get done and put behind us.

 

[Cobblestones]

If the Euro's are so intellectuality superior where are their Harvard's? Why are 15 of the top 20 colleges in the world in the US and none in mainland Europe?

I don't know the answer to this; it's a mystery to me. Likely, the ranking is biased toward English speaking institutions. One thing I can tell you though is that STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) education sucks in the US. Students come with huge gaps in their education from high school. These gaps are patched up somewhat (with various degrees of success) by the liberal arts system. The consequence of which is that up to maybe half of the college time is spent on stuff other than courses relevant for your major. The outcome is that science students from European universities cover much much more stuff than their US counterparts. This is even true for Harvard as we just recently compared a specific science curriculum to its Rumanian counterpart (as an example). They were doing stuff there in undergraduate studies which you would typically only see in grad school in the US (including Harvard).

Don't get fooled by the name, reputation, ranking or tuition.

Now, the greatest mystery of all is of course why so many countries around the world are moving toward the US system instead of the European one. Maybe it has to do with that the US system is so commercialized. If you would base it on simply how far students advance in their field in a given amount of time, I would say the European system is quite superior.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't know the answer to this; it's a mystery to me. Likely, the ranking is biased toward English speaking institutions. One thing I can tell you though is that STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) education sucks in the US. Students come with huge gaps in their education from high school. These gaps are patched up somewhat (with various degrees of success) by the liberal arts system. The consequence of which is that up to maybe half of the college time is spent on stuff other than courses relevant for your major. The outcome is that science students from European universities cover much much more stuff than their US counterparts. This is even true for Harvard as we just recently compared a specific science curriculum to its Rumanian counterpart (as an example). They were doing stuff there in undergraduate studies which you would typically only see in grad school in the US (including Harvard).

Don't get fooled by the name, reputation, ranking or tuition.

Now, the greatest mystery of all is of course why so many countries around the world are moving toward the US system instead of the European one. Maybe it has to do with that the US system is so commercialized. If you would base it on simply how far students advance in their field in a given amount of time, I would say the European system is quite superior.

The US education system puts a far greater emphasis on college then high school. The result is you get great auto mechanics in Germany.

I work in the high tech industry (Internet infrastructure). I cannot think of one my top European or American co workers or industry peers that did not go to college in the US. With few exceptions the top colleges for STEM are all in the US....and are filled with students from all over the world. Many never went, or dropped out, of college as on the job experience is often more valuable.

As a product of both systems I would not say that one is better then the other. If I had my choice I would send my kids to French lower schools and the US for college.

 

[Cobblestones]

The US education system puts a far greater emphasis on college then high school. The result is you get great auto mechanics in Germany.

I work in the high tech industry (Internet infrastructure). I cannot think of one my top European or American co workers or industry peers that did not go to college in the US. With few exceptions the top colleges for STEM are all in the US....and are filled with students from all over the world. Many never went, or dropped out, of college as on the job experience is often more valuable.

As a product of both systems I would not say that one is better then the other. If I had my choice I would send my kids to French lower schools and the US for college.

You're right that US high school<<college. So maybe what I said wasn't entirely fair, because European students have a head start from high school.

As far as hypotheticals, my dream sequence would be: French school, German university for undergraduate studies. US universities would only factor in for graduate studies, but there they rule supreme.

Let me also add a link relevant to the discussion.

 

[Anonymous]

You're right that US high school<<college. So maybe what I said wasn't entirely fair, because European students have a head start from high school.

As far as hypotheticals, my dream sequence would be: French school, German university for undergraduate studies. US universities would only factor in for graduate studies, but there they rule supreme.

Let me also add a link relevant to the discussion.

Unless you happen to be incredibly gifted in math, and then choosing any school other than MIT or Caltech (MIT being the best choice) would be unwise.

 

[Sprocket01]

Most Americans are absolutely clueless when it comes to political culture and ideology. They have no idea that history actually began before 1776 (if they knew that much). Compared with their average European counterparts, they have a much lower what I call "political IQ."

I think the elite of the American system is better, but the average European would probably fair better in a general knowledge contest against the average American. It's sort of like the way Hollywood has the most health obsessed people in the world but America as a whole is the most obsese nation.

At being creative and doing business, however, I think your average American would be more naturally suited to this than a European.

As for universities, the US system is the most well funded in the world, for a variety of reasons, which is the main reason why they have the best universities.

 

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Ivys in particular have pretty scary endowments.

 

[Race Radio]

This "Average American" that people refer to does not exist. There is no such thing as an average American. There are certainly plenty of people that fit the stereotype that Hollywood and many Europeans like to believe is the majority (Fat, inbreed, cousin dating, NASCAR watching, Klan member)

An Average American won the NYC Marathon today.

His family owns a mini mart 5 minutes from my house. This is the average American. His father escaped the violence of a never ending war in Eritrea and brought his family to the US. He spoke no English. He runs a small market. His kids did a little better. They have six undergraduate degrees, an MBA, an MD, one is working on a JD and another is on her way to Stanford University. Meb is an Olympic Silver medalist.

America is filled with stories of average Americans like Meb.

 

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.......many Europeans like to believe is the majority (Fat, inbreed, cousin dating, NASCAR watching, Klan member).....

If you spent more time in the red states. You might think Euros are actually on to something.

 

[Race Radio]

If you spent more time in the red states. You might think Euros are actually on to something.

I have spent plenty of time in the Red States, mostly Texas and Georgia. As I wrote the stereotype exists.....there are 300 million people in the US, not all are fat morons.

Go to Majorca some time and check out the British and German tourists. On par with any mall in Mississippi but with more tattoos and a higher Blood Alcohol Content.

 

[Sprocket01]

An Average American won the NYC Marathon today.

Um, no they didn't. The average American does not win marathons.

I think you're a bit confused about the term average. As I said, when it comes to the elite they are probably the best educated people in the world, but if you compare the general knowledge skills of society as a whole, I'd say America is a bit down on most of Europe. Doesn't mean they're all idiots by any means - that's not the point - but you only have to look at the the sloppy way unsubstantiated rumours are used so effectively by politicians to see what they think of the masses.

 

[Sprocket01]

Go to Majorca some time and check out the British and German tourists. On par with any mall in Mississippi but with more tattoos and a higher Blood Alcohol Content.

Hmmm, that analogy isn't quite correct, because we know from the statistics that Germany is a less obese nation than the US. Europe as a whole is less obese still.

That shows you how averages work. Paradoxically, America has an elite that is more health obsessed than anywhere else in the world, but the society as a whole is the least healthy. It's the same with the intellectual elite.

 

[Sprocket01]

I will say, though, that I don't like over-the-top anti Americanism. It certainly got out of hand in Europe in recent years. I had hoped it would turn the corner with the change of government, and in many respects it has, but the perception recently in Europe that angry mobs were protesting to stop poor people getting healthcare - simplistic I know, but has a grain of truth to it - hasn't helped matters. PR disaster or what.

 

[Race Radio]

Hmmm, that analogy isn't quite correct, because we know from the statistics that Germany is a less obese nation than the US. Europe as a whole is less obese still.

That shows you how averages work. Paradoxically, America has an elite that is more health obsessed than anywhere else in the world, but the society as a whole is the least healthy. It's the same with the intellectual elite.

Thank you for proving my point about the people believing in stereotypes that are not based on fact.

Most Germans would say that there is a greater percentage of fat Americans, this is not the case

rates of obesity and overweight in Germany now match those in the United States.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2449356,00.html

Among adults, the study found that 58.9 percent of German women are overweight; 75.4 percent of men are carrying excess pounds.

Running a close second among women was the UK, where 58.5 percent of women are overweight

for the US the percentage of overweight

Women: 65 million (61.6 percent)
Men: 68.3 million (70.5 percent)

 

[Race Radio]

Um, no they didn't. The average American does not win marathons.

I think you're a bit confused about the term average. As I said, when it comes to the elite they are probably the best educated people in the world, but if you compare the general knowledge skills of society as a whole, I'd say America is a bit down on most of Europe. Doesn't mean they're all idiots by any means - that's not the point - but you only have to look at the the sloppy way unsubstantiated rumours are used so effectively by politicians to see what they think of the masses.

As usual you miss the point.

There is no such thing as an "Average American". For every stereotype you invent there are millions of exceptions.

 

[skippy254]

Obama = Satan's Spawn

 

[skippy254]

If some Europeans would get their collective nose out of the clouds of marijuana smoke they might be able to look "down" upon the rest of the world and see that we are all human. No one is better than anyone else. It is the super self inflated ego that bothers me.

 

[Bala Verde]

Re education: this article in the NY times is an interesting read.

 

[Anonymous]

RR, I have followed this thread and I must say that I have enjoyed your posts. There are Americans that fit the stereotype portrayed by many around the world. I cannot think of one of my friends who does, and I live in the south. However, I do have family that live in trailers. I do have many people who I graduated high school with who fit the stereotype. I even know some people from college who do. I also know that many of them are much more complex people than a stereotype could ever cover. I am sure anyone anywhere could say almost the same thing.

I have traveled all over the world, and there are 2 things that stand out to me.
1. People really are pretty similar.
2. I have loved many places, but am always glad to get back home.

I will however say that if Sarah Palin becomes president, I give up.

 

[fatandfast]

One thing is for sure the world's economy is linked regardless of opinion. Not until the US had a big shake out and double digit unemployment and almost no GDP for a couple of years was the state of our social services really known. Katrina looked like an isolated case until the economic storm hit the whole nation. Now we see the US as more fragile than ever. Most of W. Europe has higher taxes and smaller economic growth than the US and had always seemed like a less streamlined process for growth,until the shell game that is the US economy was revealed. What happens when Peter can't be robbed to pay Paul. If both guys health care is tied to their jobs at the bank. You see it now, it's a cluster ****. We spend more and get less than the rest of the west. My friends who came here from Belgium and Australia both bought health insurance before coming to the US to run in the NYC marathon, I felt ashamed knowing all the stuff they were saying about some of our systems was true. The economy, high taxes w/o benifits, and wars all over the planet are a US problem...not caused by Obama.

 

[Sprocket01]

Thank you for proving my point about the people believing in stereotypes that are not based on fact.

Not really. It's hardly a stereotype that Americans have the most obesity problems. We are constantly told here in the UK that we are catching up fast though, as we eat more American style foods and portions. Interesting that Germany now almost matches you.

World obesity map....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_map_of_Male_Obesity,_2008.svg

 

[Sprocket01]

As usual you miss the point.

There is no such thing as an "Average American". For every stereotype you invent there are millions of exceptions.

I'm not in the business of inventing stereotypes. Whatever you want to call it, there is no doubt there is slightly more ignorance about world and current affairs in the US, in large part due to the size of the country and the way the media is set up. Rumours about politicians being born abroad, or Saddam Hussein being behind 9/11, or health care for the poor meaning there is going to be a communist takeover, just don't take off in the same way in Europe because of this. This doesn't mean they are bad people or that there aren't a whole set of extremely well educated people around in the US - as I say, the elite is the best educated in the world - but you've got to admit there is a bit of a problem in some areas.

I'm surprised to find myself on this side of the argument because I'm usually arguing against misinformed and ignorant anti Americanism. I'm also surprised to see you, of all people, playing the nationalist card since you to often join with the Euros in hysterically attacking a certain arrogant Texan....

 

[Race Radio]

I'm not in the business of inventing stereotypes. Whatever you want to call it, there is no doubt there is slightly more ignorance about world and current affairs in the US, in large part due to the size of the country and the way the media is set up. Rumours about politicians being born abroad, or Saddam Hussein being behind 9/11, or health care for the poor meaning there is going to be a communist takeover, just don't take off in the same way in Europe because of this. This doesn't mean they are bad people or that there aren't a whole set of extremely well educated people around in the US - as I say, the elite is the best educated in the world - but you've got to admit there is a bit of a problem in some areas.

I'm surprised to find myself on this side of the argument because I'm usually arguing against misinformed and ignorant anti Americanism. I'm also surprised to see you, of all people, playing the nationalist card since you to often join with the Euros in hysterically attacking a certain arrogant Texan....

You just can't help yourself, a troll has to troll.

You present a series of myths believed by a small fraction of Americans as proof that American's are ignorant. You ignore the fact that only 11% of Americans believed things like Obama being born overseas, this is nowhere close to a majority. The fact remains that the vast majority of Americans do not believe these myth's.....if they did would Obama have been elected?

I am not "Playing the Nationalist card" I am playing the reality card. If a clueless American posted some uninformed BS about the French being "Cheese eating surrender monkeys" I would be compelled to introduce some reality into the the discussion, just as I do everytime you repeat an Armstrong Twitter as fact.

 

[Sprocket01]

I like the way you say "only 11%". That's about 30 million people, isn't it?

At one point at least 50% of Americans thought Saddam was behind 9/11.

Do you think Obama is a Muslim, Race?

 

[Bala Verde]

Th Economist recently showed a 2009 ranking in which European Institutes were said to offer the best MBA programs, and the top 10 consisted of 5 European and 5 American Schools.

However, they acknowledged that all the available rankings published in the MBA field have very divergent criteria, which subsequently affect the outcomes.

In terms of the rankings of Universities world wide, they currently seem to favor English/US academic institutions in two ways:

1)much of the 'peer reviewed articles business' is in English, and they carry a great weight in calculating the end scores. If you don't publish internationally there is reduced visibility.
2)the highest production of peer reviewed articles are in the 'hard sciences' & medical sciences (as opposed to the social sciences, espeically when they are in the non-positivist field). The Ivy League schools have demonstrated a superior organizational capacity in the sense that they have created the best conglomerates of scientific departments. I am under the impression that European academic institutions - many state funded - are much more forced to specialize in a field/some fields, due to money constraints/allocation requirements. In general, specialized institutions even, English ones, hardly enter the top 50 at all.

It's also unlikely that the current rankings are going to change soon. One of the reasons being is that Professors who go to reputable schools often have low(er) teaching requirements and much time for their own research. It's a win win situation for the already established school, because academics and schools thus remain productive in terms of scientific output, whereas others are much more constrained due the pressure to combing teaching with research. It's 'publish or perish'

I wonder if the US academic establishments and increasing associations abroad - setting up universities in Dubai and China for example - is a move to secure the future as top ranked institutes?