World Politics

[Anonymous]

I didn't make my point very clear. In the rest of the western/modern world a limb is worth lets say 300,000 whatevers and in the US it's worth 10 million? Why are all our own companies moving a huge % of their operation out of the US? Legal and labor they say it every time they pack up. Thank god for fishermen and loggers,miners,farmers. I don't want the gene pool to think life is risk less. PS if I could get 600k for a kids leg I would have lopped off both and went on holiday,and bought the kid a pair of shorts. If your listening you will hear us call ourselves " sue happy" the rest of the world has been saying it for a long while. You can print "hot coffee" on it,tell them it's hot, have them order it hot but when it spills in their lap only in the US is it somebody else's fault

Another case in which most people (hint: you) are completely ignorant of the actual facts of the case. I won't do your heavy lifting, but suffice to say you don't know what you are talking about.

And I wouldn't chop off my child's limbs for any amount of money, call me crazy.

 

[Anonymous]

Go ask any doctor (especially family physician) what their income was 20 years ago vs. today. Ask them how much they pay for med/mal insurance compared to 20 years ago.

Again, if your desire is to make me feel badly for the income of doctors, I don't.

Ok. Limit the income of everyone in the health insustry (for the greater good, of course) but refuse to address the other problems driving up costs? The mere threat of litigation forces doctors/hospitals to practice "defensive medicine." Every test under the sun, procedures often unnecessary to avoid the appearance that everything possible was not done. The same situation exists with the pharmas. R&D costs are astronomical due to the threat of litigation. Pharmas behave more like insurance companies putting away large sums of dollars (litigation reserves, not unlike claim loss reserves) from the sale of thier products for the lawsuits that will eventually come.

The issue of defensive medicine and malpractice are two different things. I am willing to talk about the former, but permanent injury inflicted because of crappy medicine is a different subject entirely.

BTW, the real issues are cost and access. So, to me, we need to discuss ways to reduce cost and provide access. Don't think for a second that the trial lawyers have not contributed negatively to this. I'm not saying the entire problem of cost and access is due to litigation but it is certainly part of the problem and it needs to be looked at.

I will agree with that, but the reality is that the limits that are put forth don't reflect any thoughtful assessment of the problem areas, they seek sweeping change regardless of situation, and that is just not going to happen.

 

[fatandfast]

Another case in which most people (hint: you) are completely ignorant of the actual facts of the case. I won't do your heavy lifting, but suffice to say you don't know what you are talking about.

And I wouldn't chop off my child's limbs for any amount of money, call me crazy.

Liebeck vs. McDonalds 1994. 79 year old woman asks for 20,000 dollars after she placed a .49 cent hot coffee she bought from McDonalds drive thru between her legs and it burned her. Mc Donalds said no way offered her 800 bucks to go away. Now is the part I was talking about. She was awarded 2.86 million dollars, yes it was reduced on appeal to @675,000. Simple facts are 800,675,000 or 2.86 million are all too much to pay people for being idiots. Now back to your figures,yes maybe 600k is not enough if a guy looses a leg but if you average in cases like this, 600k may be over paying. People love to screw over big faceless mega companies because there is nobody attached to the cash,people loose there jobs every time some jury full of crying soccer moms gives 2.86 million to Granny hot crotch. We win lots of wars maybe instead of drugs or terror we should fight a war for commonsense. I was unlucky enough to sit on a jury in a case where a truck rim exploded and injured a gas station worker. He had training on "split rims" misused the equipment, used a salvage rim,used the wrong size tire,used too high an air pressure and said that he searched junk yards in S.Cal and Mexico to get old rims, that he knew were "still good". I didn't change my mind then either, it wasn't Mobil Oil's fault. Second trial he got 800k to be paid over his lifetime.

 

[Anonymous]

Liebeck vs. McDonalds 1994. 79 year old woman asks for 20,000 dollars after she placed a .49 cent hot coffee she bought from McDonalds drive thru between her legs and it burned her. Mc Donalds said no way offered her 800 bucks to go away. Now is the part I was talking about. She was awarded 2.86 million dollars, yes it was reduced on appeal to @675,000. Simple facts are 800,675,000 or 2.86 million are all too much to pay people for being idiots. Now back to your figures,yes maybe 600k is not enough if a guy looses a leg but if you average in cases like this, 600k may be over paying. People love to screw over big faceless mega companies because there is nobody attached to the cash,people loose there jobs every time some jury full of crying soccer moms gives 2.86 million to Granny hot crotch. We win lots of wars maybe instead of drugs or terror we should fight a war for commonsense. I was unlucky enough to sit on a jury in a case where a truck rim exploded and injured a gas station worker. He had training on "split rims" misused the equipment, used a salvage rim,used the wrong size tire,used too high an air pressure and said that he searched junk yards in S.Cal and Mexico to get old rims, that he knew were "still good". I didn't change my mind then either, it wasn't Mobil Oil's fault. Second trial he got 800k to be paid over his lifetime.

The jury felt differently, the coffee was hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns, and she changed industry standards so that it doesn't happen now. See, McDonalds could have settled for a lot less money, looked into its coffee problem (because they knew before hand that coffee at 185-190 degrees could cause serious burns-it had happened before about 700 other times) and just reduced the temp of their coffee so that those types of burns didn't happen. Instead, the took the approach that you suggest (screw 'em), and paid the price. Sucks for them.

As to your other example, for every one, there is another where companies ignore problems with products because it would cost money to fix it, and someone dies because they failed to correct a flaw that they knew about. It is a calculated risk, and companies know it. What is the cost of fighting a law suit over the cost of correcting a flaw? Well if the former is cheaper than the latter, someone is going to have to die in the name of profit motive. NOTE; These are not isolated incidents.

I am all for reasonable discussion on the subject. Unfortunately, that isn't what is on the table for tort reform in health care. It is sweeping change proffered by people like you who think that because an old woman gets her crotch burned, every lawsuit is frivolous. Fact is that the great majority are not.

 

[flyor64]

Liebeck vs. McDonalds 1994...

You know FWIW I fully beilieved what you wrote for years, often quoting the story to friends, when arguing against outlandish lawsuits being won, etc.

Then I started quoting the Winebago coffer maker cruise control story too...but that one just seemed ubelievable, so I checked it out and it was fake, so I checked out the coffee suit as well, thinking "maybe I should get my **** together if I'm going argue a point"...and was surprised to find that it wasn't nearly as outlandish as I had thought.

http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts

Not sure if this whole discussion is OT...I guess it's kind of on topic since malpractice lawsuits and the rising costs associated with them are part of this topic.

Anyway, after a little research, I know longer questioned her lawsuit.

 

[Laszlo]

Please point to something this govt does well, efficient, cutting edge and world class. What evidence is there the govt can do this and do it well?

space exploration

 

[Anonymous]

You know FWIW I fully beilieved what you wrote for years, often quoting the story to friends, when arguing against outlandish lawsuits being won, etc.

Then I started quoting the Winebago coffer maker cruise control story too...but that one just seemed ubelievable, so I checked it out and it was fake, so I checked out the coffee suit as well, thinking "maybe I should get my **** together if I'm going argue a point"...and was surprised to find that it wasn't nearly as outlandish as I had thought.

http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts

Not sure if this whole discussion is OT...I guess it's kind of on topic since malpractice lawsuits and the rising costs associated with them are part of this topic.

Anyway, after a little research, I know longer questioned her lawsuit.

Most people wouldn't if they knew the actual facts. But then, people like fatandfast aren't concerned with facts. They are concerned with making a point.

Side note, I was burned badly by a pitcher of fresh brewed tea that was under 170 degrees.(I worked in a coffee shop at the time, and that is the temp we brewed) It fell on my lower leg and foot (which had a mid calf sock and shoe covering it.) By the time I got my sock and shoe off, the skin from mid shin down to where my toes start looked like it was washed off. It took 6 months to heal and was the most painful thing I have gone through. Like I said, cases like that always seem stupid until you know what you are talking about.

Thanks for the post.

 

[fatandfast]

dearest food, I have ridden and raced things with 2 wheels since the age of 4. All things get more risky as you go faster and push the limits of hardware. There are many faulty products, and yes companies sometimes ignore problems. I have been unlucky enough to use some, but just lucky enough to do so without serious injury . Placing any liquid no matter how hot or cold between your legs for any purpose other than sexual or cleaning is bad form. The industry of handing liquid through a window,or promoting people to enjoy a full meal while driving a car is the problem. It's like a DVD player in the front seat of the car, it can never be a good idea. The change in "the industry" should have been to stop dispensing any hot anything through the window of an automobile. Riding in a metal box with a thick chunk of glass in front of your face is very,very dangerous,no matter what you believe. Trying to get food or drink in your gut makes it even more so. I am glad that George Hindcappie ignored any advice to sue the manufac of his failed stem in Paris Roubaix, I would have felt about him like a do about the woman who blamed McDonalds rather than her thighs for the coffee cup failure.Both idiots. Take the test at home, place a styrofoam cup of boiling hot coffee on the counter in your kitchen,left at rest it tends to stay that way. Squeeze it with your hands ,thighs or buttocks and it will be less stable possibly causing a burn. This debate can go on and on but one thing is for sure,wearing lycra shorts and top with a styrofoam helmet on bicycle at 40mph must really make you shudder. I love it and won't sue anybody if I meet the pavement during my enjoyment.

 

[Anonymous]

dearest food, I have ridden and raced things with 2 wheels since the age of 4. All things get more risky as you go faster and push the limits of hardware. There are many faulty products, and yes companies sometimes ignore problems. I have been unlucky enough to use some, but just lucky enough to do so without serious injury . Placing any liquid no matter how hot or cold between your legs for any purpose other than sexual or cleaning is bad form. The industry of handing liquid through a window,or promoting people to enjoy a full meal while driving a car is the problem. It's like a DVD player in the front seat of the car, it can never be a good idea. The change in "the industry" should have been to stop dispensing any hot anything through the window of an automobile. Riding in a metal box with a thick chunk of glass in front of your face is very,very dangerous,no matter what you believe. Trying to get food or drink in your gut makes it even more so. I am glad that George Hindcappie ignored any advice to sue the manufac of his failed stem in Paris Roubaix, I would have felt about him like a do about the woman who blamed McDonalds rather than her thighs for the coffee cup failure.Both idiots. Take the test at home, place a styrofoam cup of boiling hot coffee on the counter in your kitchen,left at rest it tends to stay that way. Squeeze it with your hands ,thighs or buttocks and it will be less stable possibly causing a burn. This debate can go on and on but one thing is for sure,wearing lycra shorts and top with a styrofoam helmet on bicycle at 40mph must really make you shudder. I love it and won't sue anybody if I meet the pavement during my enjoyment.

A. She she wasn't driving and the car wasn't moving.

B. Please keep showing your ignorance, it continues to prove my point over and over.*














*If you actually read the available information on the case, you will cease making statements that show you haven't.

 

[Anonymous]

space exploration

Well done. I'm not ready to conceed regarding NASA and efficiency, but admittedly it would be hard to measure as no one else does what they do.

Any others?

 

[Cobblestones]

Tort reform is a small issue.

The biggest problem is the administrative costs. You have hospitals/doctors on one side and insurances on the other. The insurances make profits by paying as few claims as possible, the hospitals/doctors make profit for performing as many procedures as possible. There's an enormous amount of friction between the two creating a massive administration on both sides. I think a single payer system could easily save the bulk of those administrative costs, bringing the overall insurance rates down by quite a bit.

ETA: Scott, most federally funded research is performing excellently. Not only NASA.

Then look at the largest federal expenses. The military is one of those. What's your opinion on the US military? Efficient, cutting edge, world class or not?

 

[Murray]

dearest food, I have ridden and raced things with 2 wheels since the age of 4. All things get more risky as you go faster and push the limits of hardware. There are many faulty products, and yes companies sometimes ignore problems. I have been unlucky enough to use some, but just lucky enough to do so without serious injury . Placing any liquid no matter how hot or cold between your legs for any purpose other than sexual or cleaning is bad form. The industry of handing liquid through a window,or promoting people to enjoy a full meal while driving a car is the problem. It's like a DVD player in the front seat of the car, it can never be a good idea. The change in "the industry" should have been to stop dispensing any hot anything through the window of an automobile. Riding in a metal box with a thick chunk of glass in front of your face is very,very dangerous,no matter what you believe. Trying to get food or drink in your gut makes it even more so. I am glad that George Hindcappie ignored any advice to sue the manufac of his failed stem in Paris Roubaix, I would have felt about him like a do about the woman who blamed McDonalds rather than her thighs for the coffee cup failure.Both idiots. Take the test at home, place a styrofoam cup of boiling hot coffee on the counter in your kitchen,left at rest it tends to stay that way. Squeeze it with your hands ,thighs or buttocks and it will be less stable possibly causing a burn. This debate can go on and on but one thing is for sure,wearing lycra shorts and top with a styrofoam helmet on bicycle at 40mph must really make you shudder. I love it and won't sue anybody if I meet the pavement during my enjoyment.

Great post... sums it up nicely....

 

[Anonymous]

Great post... sums it up nicely....

...uh no, it doesn't...

 

[Murray]

A. She she wasn't driving and the car wasn't moving.

Why does it matter if she was driving or not? Putting a soft (styrofoam or paper) cup between your legs on a non-level surface is just bad judgment.

I am not without sympathy... burns are terrible. However, her suffering was of her own making.

 

[Murray]

...uh no, it doesn't...

I suppose I could just say "...uh yes, it does..." but I graduated from grade 6 many many years ago.

 

[Anonymous]

I suppose I could just say "...uh yes, it does..." but I graduated from grade 6 many many years ago.

I graduated with my second degree several years ago. Why did you stop at the 6th grade?

Anyway, again, you don't know anything about the case other than an old woman was burned, she got the burning agent from McDonalds, and she was in a car. That is just enough to make me wish people would seek more than a 6th grade education. You, like he, need to actually learn more about the case. However, I understand it is easier to just make up your mind on a minimum of evidence; it involves less work and thought.

You make your 6th grade teacher proud.

 

[Anonymous]

This was posted by another member:
http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts

Edumikation, the other white meat.

 

[Anonymous]

* In an effort for full disclosure: I am currently studying my a$$ off for the LSAT in an effort to change my profession mid life. I therefore have a vested interest in the subject seeing that I will hopefully be making my living from it.

 

[Murray]

I graduated with my second degree several years ago. Why did you stop at the 6th grade?

Anyway, again, you don't know anything about the case other than an old woman was burned, she got the burning agent from McDonalds, and she was in a car. That is just enough to make me wish people would seek more than a 6th grade education. You, like he, need to actually learn more about the case. However, I understand it is easier to just make up your mind on a minimum of evidence; it involves less work and thought.

You make your 6th grade teacher proud.

1) I graduated with my third degree a few years ago as well (two in engineering and one in medicine). I'm sure my sixth grade teacher is very happy.

2) I freely admit to having not investigated this case any further than what I heard in the media. I did however, take the time to read the link you just posted. Thank you. It was enlightening.

3) I do NOT have any love of McDonald's and their corporate practices. I agree that the coffee should not have been so hot. 185 degrees certainly is not safe. It should be reduced.

4) However, I do maintain that putting any beverage in a soft cup between your legs is a bad idea. Especially reading that she took off the cover which was lending some structural support to the cup. It is not at all surprising that the cup collapsed and spilled.

5) Bring your own rigid reusable mugs. It's better for the environment and your mug will maintain it's structural integrity when placed between your legs.

 

[Murray]

* In an effort for full disclosure: I am currently studying my a$$ off for the LSAT in an effort to change my profession mid life. I therefore have a vested interest in the subject seeing that I will hopefully be making my living from it.

I did the same (although not into Law). Good luck with the career change.

 

[Anonymous]

Tort reform is a small issue.

The biggest problem is the administrative costs. You have hospitals/doctors on one side and insurances on the other. The insurances make profits by paying as few claims as possible, the hospitals/doctors make profit for performing as many procedures as possible. There's an enormous amount of friction between the two creating a massive administration on both sides. I think a single payer system could easily save the bulk of those administrative costs, bringing the overall insurance rates down by quite a bit.

ETA: Scott, most federally funded research is performing excellently. Not only NASA.

Then look at the largest federal expenses. The military is one of those. What's your opinion on the US military? Efficient, cutting edge, world class or not?

That's just wrong. Legitimate claims are paid (per insurance contract) or insurance co's are shut down. Every state has a department of insurance (or an equal) who investigate claims made against insurance co's every day. Insurance co's don't make a profit by only paying as few claims as possible. But let's assume you are correct. Exactly how will this change when you insert the federal govt into the equasion? Do you really see big payouts for litigation when there is a federal single payer system in place? Where will the cost containment come from and where is there any evidence that govt can do this?

There are some problems between insurers and defensive medicine practices. When insurers know tests and procedures were redundant for appearance reasons then they have a problem. But, who forces defensive medicine? Tort reform a small issue? Bullocks.

Federally funded research is hardly federal run anything. Federal apparatus is medicare, social security, veterans admin, etc. Problems with any of those?

The military is many things, but efficient? Nope.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Tort reform is a small issue.

The biggest problem is the administrative costs. You have hospitals/doctors on one side and insurances on the other. The insurances make profits by paying as few claims as possible, the hospitals/doctors make profit for performing as many procedures as possible. There's an enormous amount of friction between the two creating a massive administration on both sides. I think a single payer system could easily save the bulk of those administrative costs, bringing the overall insurance rates down by quite a bit.

ETA: Scott, most federally funded research is performing excellently. Not only NASA.

Then look at the largest federal expenses. The military is one of those. What's your opinion on the US military? Efficient, cutting edge, world class or not?

I wish the highlighted statement was true, doctors in HMOs get bonuses for not treating too many patients.

 

[Anonymous]

1) I graduated with my third degree a few years ago as well (two in engineering and one in medicine). I'm sure my sixth grade teacher is very happy.

2) I freely admit to having not investigated this case any further than what I heard in the media. I did however, take the time to read the link you just posted. Thank you. It was enlightening.

3) I do NOT have any love of McDonald's and their corporate practices. I agree that the coffee should not have been so hot. 185 degrees certainly is not safe. It should be reduced.

4) However, I do maintain that putting any beverage in a soft cup between your legs is a bad idea. Especially reading that she took off the cover which was lending some structural support to the cup. It is not at all surprising that the cup collapsed and spilled.

5) Bring your own rigid reusable mugs. It's better for the environment and your mug will maintain it's structural integrity when placed between your legs.

Ok, first, I was a douche. Here -> my apology

Secondly, that is reasonable. I still think McDonalds should have paid the $20,000 and reduced the temp of its coffee. It would have made this so much less contentious.

Thank you for the good will. I can get in with the score I got last Feb, but I want scholarship money...it will make it easier to work in the DA's office or the like.

 

[Anonymous]

Well done. I'm not ready to conceed regarding NASA and efficiency, but admittedly it would be hard to measure as no one else does what they do.

Any others?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/16/news/companies/US_postal_service/index.htm

No, wait a second....

 

[Hugh Januss]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/16/news/companies/US_postal_service/index.htm

No, wait a second....

The Post Office is withering much like the health care industry would if nobody ever got sick anymore.