This will be the irony with the Enhanced Games- people will scratch their heads when these "enhanced" athletes aren't going any faster than the "clean" people.
- Oct 7, 2025
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Does Pogacar have a beard? If not, why not? Does his body not grow beards? Is this a marginal gain, to not waste energy on growing beards?
- Jul 7, 2013
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This is the best proof Pogi doesn't take testosterone and stuff like that. Paniagua, guys!
- Sep 26, 2020
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Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Business all over the world do not say “Fine, we’ll leave” when their major competitor is breaking laws to earn greater profits at their expense - they sue them. That's the norm. And that is the norm with businesses much smaller than Red Bull.
If businesses (sponsors) threaten to leave the sport then it would also be in the best interests of the UCI to ensure Pogacar and UAE are not getting any unfair advantages compared to other sponsors.
- Jul 30, 2011
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That was my point: businesses don’t walk away in large. At the same time, the UCI seems a bit haphazard about best practices.
If sponsors threatened to leave en masse that would be one matter, but is it happening? And what channels and proof would they need to sue on the grounds that actual laws are being broken? And that comes back to the monetary profit issue also. Red Bull report that last year they hit record numbers despite slow growth since the pandemic. So they could argue that a Tour winner would increase that, but wouldn’t you agree that they haven’t and don’t have an absolute contender? It seems like a somewhat arcane case to have to make.
If sponsors threatened to leave en masse that would be one matter, but is it happening? And what channels and proof would they need to sue on the grounds that actual laws are being broken? And that comes back to the monetary profit issue also. Red Bull report that last year they hit record numbers despite slow growth since the pandemic. So they could argue that a Tour winner would increase that, but wouldn’t you agree that they haven’t and don’t have an absolute contender? It seems like a somewhat arcane case to have to make.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Grounds are loss of market exposure for the considerable sum invested - €50mil p.a. for Red Bull and Visma.
Proof is what we are talking about here - UCI special favors for Pogacar and UAE.
If Pogacar and UAE are being granted special favors (e.g. not applying doping controls evenly) then Red Bull and Visma are losing out - otherwise why invest in sponsorship at all. I am assuming they would prefer to win the Tour de France than come 2nd?
Visma seemed very pleased not to come 2nd when they won in 2022 and 2023 and similarly displeased in 2024 and 2025. There is a large monetary incentive to these sponsors challenge the UCI to apply rules evenly - even if that has to be done behind closed doors. Red Bull is a much bigger sponsor than anyone in cycling except perhaps UAE.
Red Bull spend much more on other sports like F1 than they do on cycling. And they play in those sports to win, not come 2nd to cheats. If there is a hint of cheating in F1 we all hear about it.
- Jul 30, 2011
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That’s all true, but it sidesteps the question of a contender for Red Bull, and, more importantly, the question of proof. Are Visma and Red Bull going to take on the UCI over the likelihood or possibility of cheating and plausibly maintain that they aren’t?
As is known, the money and publicity in F1 dwarf that of cycling.
So sure, behind closed doors is a slightly different matter, but then again, there’s no guarantee of how UCI would frame their response.
As is known, the money and publicity in F1 dwarf that of cycling.
So sure, behind closed doors is a slightly different matter, but then again, there’s no guarantee of how UCI would frame their response.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Visma can lobby the UCI behind closed doors. Perhaps they already are?
The contender for Red Bull would be Remco - I assume that is why they lured him there? Behind closed doors avoids legal suits under defamation laws - there is no way to prove reputational or brand damage. But if UAE and Gianetti suspect these approaches to the UCI are being made by rival teams but likewise have no proof then that also potentially limits what they think they can get away with.
Lack of proof is the elephant in the room. But I believe if UCI doping controls are enforced to their full extent* then despite claims about EPO micro-dosing and the like it is not possible to fool the biological passport - 14 markers tracked in the Haematological Module. Certainly not with the performances Pogacar is doing. It has already been shown they can detect autologous blood doping and "undetectable" substances run the risk of detection too, if not immediately then via retrospective testing.
*I don't believe motors are being used.
The contender for Red Bull would be Remco - I assume that is why they lured him there? Behind closed doors avoids legal suits under defamation laws - there is no way to prove reputational or brand damage. But if UAE and Gianetti suspect these approaches to the UCI are being made by rival teams but likewise have no proof then that also potentially limits what they think they can get away with.
Lack of proof is the elephant in the room. But I believe if UCI doping controls are enforced to their full extent* then despite claims about EPO micro-dosing and the like it is not possible to fool the biological passport - 14 markers tracked in the Haematological Module. Certainly not with the performances Pogacar is doing. It has already been shown they can detect autologous blood doping and "undetectable" substances run the risk of detection too, if not immediately then via retrospective testing.
*I don't believe motors are being used.
- Jul 30, 2011
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I don’t believe motors are either.
Yes, Remco. But we don’t need to get into a discussion of “if enough x time trials, if Pog’s knees hurt, if one of his key domestiques crashes out, if UAE tactics fall apart and Roglic works and goes decoy while everyone’s” watching Jonas” etc.
I would tend to trust you on all of the rest, but if so, and UCI protocols are being strictly adhered to, then while Visma can lobby what are the grounds beyond UAE having access to procederal information?
Combloux 2023...
Anyway, who cares about UCI, the big boy is ASO (never trust a family business). That's where the money is.
What if... Remco and Jonas have enough, torn between an unbeatable winner and newcomers threatening their place on the podium, and want to enjoy themselves at the Giro? Let them take part in the Giro and skip the Tour. Let Pogi crush the youngsters without any suspense at the Tour, let the Giro be the place to be. There would be a few meetings between ASO and the UCI.
- Sep 14, 2019
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A big thing that makes the TdF the most important GT is its timing. In July a lot of people are taking vacations and so have time to watch the stages live. That's a big factor for sponsors.
Whereas the Giro being in May and Vuelta being in September isn't ideal in this regard.
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