Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rico044]

I'd like TEG (Enhanced Games) to include cycling in the program. Imagine MTT on PdB to check how fast openly doped cyclists can climb there and if they have any chance with Pogacar. 😅

This will be the irony with the Enhanced Games- people will scratch their heads when these "enhanced" athletes aren't going any faster than the "clean" people.

 

[Lurkerman]

Does Pogacar have a beard? If not, why not? Does his body not grow beards? Is this a marginal gain, to not waste energy on growing beards?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Does Pogacar have a beard? If not, why not? Does his body not grow beards? Is this a marginal gain, to not waste energy on growing beards?

This is the best proof Pogi doesn't take testosterone and stuff like that. Paniagua, guys!

 

[Samu Cuenca]

This is the best proof Pogi doesn't take testosterone and stuff like that. Paniagua, guys!

But his bike could still be hairy on the inside.

 

[Cookster15]

As for this, you see business all over the world?With UCI as a microcosm of that. What would the other teams say? “Fine, we’ll leave”

Business all over the world do not say “Fine, we’ll leave” when their major competitor is breaking laws to earn greater profits at their expense - they sue them. That's the norm. And that is the norm with businesses much smaller than Red Bull.

If businesses (sponsors) threaten to leave the sport then it would also be in the best interests of the UCI to ensure Pogacar and UAE are not getting any unfair advantages compared to other sponsors.

 

[aphronesis]

That was my point: businesses don’t walk away in large. At the same time, the UCI seems a bit haphazard about best practices.

If sponsors threatened to leave en masse that would be one matter, but is it happening? And what channels and proof would they need to sue on the grounds that actual laws are being broken? And that comes back to the monetary profit issue also. Red Bull report that last year they hit record numbers despite slow growth since the pandemic. So they could argue that a Tour winner would increase that, but wouldn’t you agree that they haven’t and don’t have an absolute contender? It seems like a somewhat arcane case to have to make.

 

[Cookster15]

what channels and proof would they need to sue on the grounds that actual laws are being broken?

Grounds are loss of market exposure for the considerable sum invested - €50mil p.a. for Red Bull and Visma.
Proof is what we are talking about here - UCI special favors for Pogacar and UAE.

If Pogacar and UAE are being granted special favors (e.g. not applying doping controls evenly) then Red Bull and Visma are losing out - otherwise why invest in sponsorship at all. I am assuming they would prefer to win the Tour de France than come 2nd?

Visma seemed very pleased not to come 2nd when they won in 2022 and 2023 and similarly displeased in 2024 and 2025. There is a large monetary incentive to these sponsors challenge the UCI to apply rules evenly - even if that has to be done behind closed doors. Red Bull is a much bigger sponsor than anyone in cycling except perhaps UAE.

Red Bull spend much more on other sports like F1 than they do on cycling. And they play in those sports to win, not come 2nd to cheats. If there is a hint of cheating in F1 we all hear about it.

 

[aphronesis]

That’s all true, but it sidesteps the question of a contender for Red Bull, and, more importantly, the question of proof. Are Visma and Red Bull going to take on the UCI over the likelihood or possibility of cheating and plausibly maintain that they aren’t?

As is known, the money and publicity in F1 dwarf that of cycling.

So sure, behind closed doors is a slightly different matter, but then again, there’s no guarantee of how UCI would frame their response.

 

[Cookster15]

Visma can lobby the UCI behind closed doors. Perhaps they already are?

The contender for Red Bull would be Remco - I assume that is why they lured him there? Behind closed doors avoids legal suits under defamation laws - there is no way to prove reputational or brand damage. But if UAE and Gianetti suspect these approaches to the UCI are being made by rival teams but likewise have no proof then that also potentially limits what they think they can get away with.

Lack of proof is the elephant in the room. But I believe if UCI doping controls are enforced to their full extent* then despite claims about EPO micro-dosing and the like it is not possible to fool the biological passport - 14 markers tracked in the Haematological Module. Certainly not with the performances Pogacar is doing. It has already been shown they can detect autologous blood doping and "undetectable" substances run the risk of detection too, if not immediately then via retrospective testing.

*I don't believe motors are being used.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/world-anti-doping-program/athlete-biological-passport-abp-operating-guidelines

 

[aphronesis]

Visma can lobby the UCI behind closed doors. Perhaps they already are?

The contender for Red Bull would be Remco - I assume that is why they lured him there? Behind closed doors avoids legal suits under defamation laws - there is no way to prove reputational or brand damage. But if UAE and Gianetti suspect these approaches to the UCI are being made by rival teams but likewise have no proof then that also potentially limits what they think they can get away with.

Lack of proof is the elephant in the room. But I believe if UCI doping controls are enforced to their full extent* then despite claims about EPO micro-dosing and the like it is not possible to fool the biological passport - 14 markers tracked in the Haematological Module. Certainly not with the performances Pogacar is doing. It has already been shown they can detect autologous blood doping and "undetectable" substances run the risk of detection too, if not immediately then via retrospective testing.

*I don't believe motors are being used.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/world-anti-doping-program/athlete-biological-passport-abp-operating-guidelines

I don’t believe motors are either.

Yes, Remco. But we don’t need to get into a discussion of “if enough x time trials, if Pog’s knees hurt, if one of his key domestiques crashes out, if UAE tactics fall apart and Roglic works and goes decoy while everyone’s” watching Jonas” etc.

I would tend to trust you on all of the rest, but if so, and UCI protocols are being strictly adhered to, then while Visma can lobby what are the grounds beyond UAE having access to procederal information?

 

[YellowSocks]

Visma can lobby the UCI behind closed doors. Perhaps they already are?

Combloux 2023...
Anyway, who cares about UCI, the big boy is ASO (never trust a family business). That's where the money is.

The contender for Red Bull would be Remco - I assume that is why they lured him there?

What if... Remco and Jonas have enough, torn between an unbeatable winner and newcomers threatening their place on the podium, and want to enjoy themselves at the Giro? Let them take part in the Giro and skip the Tour. Let Pogi crush the youngsters without any suspense at the Tour, let the Giro be the place to be. There would be a few meetings between ASO and the UCI.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Combloux 2023...
Anyway, who cares about UCI, the big boy is ASO (never trust a family business). That's where the money is.

What if... Remco and Jonas have enough, torn between an unbeatable winner and newcomers threatening their place on the podium, and want to enjoy themselves at the Giro? Let them take part in the Giro and skip the Tour. Let Pogi crush the youngsters without any suspense at the Tour, let the Giro be the place to be. There would be a few meetings between ASO and the UCI.

A big thing that makes the TdF the most important GT is its timing. In July a lot of people are taking vacations and so have time to watch the stages live. That's a big factor for sponsors.

Whereas the Giro being in May and Vuelta being in September isn't ideal in this regard.

 

[peterfin]

I wonder how difficult it is to understand that it is not the UCI that conducts doping tests, but the ITA and national anti-doping agencies. The UCI has no influence whatsoever on the operation of the ITA or NADAs, which are completely independent.

The UCI has rules that go beyond WADA guidelines when it comes to cyclists' health, banning substances such as Tramadol and devices such as CO rebreathers. But there is no evidence that any team pays to the UCI to abuse these rules.

The CO rebreather story also illustrates the 'clinic's' fantasy world when it speculates about financial doping by the UAE. Visma and IPT used a €50,000 CO rebreather, while UAE used a €5,000 one lol

Saying the UCI has "no influence whatsoever" and the ITA is "completely independent" is too strong. The ITA is an independent foundation, but it operates as a service provider under a contract or mandate from the UCI. The UCI is its "client." The rules the ITA enforces are the UCI Anti-Doping Rules according to WADA guidelines

There is obviously no evidence that a team pays the UCI to abuse rules or get to do things that gives it an unfair advantage but lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not happening. This is a clinic discussion. We are not dealing with direct evidence but with potential explanations for indirect evidence: performances we can't explain.

 

[Lurkerman]

This is the best proof Pogi doesn't take testosterone and stuff like that. Paniagua, guys!

Vingegaard, meanwhile:

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

Saying the UCI has "no influence whatsoever" and the ITA is "completely independent" is too strong. The ITA is an independent foundation, but it operates as a service provider under a contract or mandate from the UCI. The UCI is its "client." The rules the ITA enforces are the UCI Anti-Doping Rules according to WADA guidelines

There is obviously no evidence that a team pays the UCI to abuse rules or get to do things that gives it an unfair advantage but lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not happening. This is a clinic discussion. We are not dealing with direct evidence but with potential explanations for indirect evidence: performances we can't explain.

That's very twisted logic. The UCI has completely transferred the running of its anti-doping program to the ITA. There is no conflict of interest. ITA is a completely independent organization from the UCI.

If the UCI wanted to manipulate anti-doping cases, why would they transfer the responsibility to the ITA? They weren't forced to do it, they could have continued as before in 2021. Unless you are saying that the entire ITA, WADA labs, and almost all European NADAs are corrupt (since the ITA always works together with the national anti-doping agencies at the race location)... there is nothing to suggest that the ITA is playing dirty games. The reality is that failing a doping test is like failing an IQ test.

By the way, ITA enforces WADA rules. UCI enforces UCI rules, such as the tramadol testing, which is not on the WADA prohibited list.

 

[peterfin]

That's very twisted logic. The UCI has completely transferred the running of its anti-doping program to the ITA. There is no conflict of interest. ITA is a completely independent organization from the UCI.

If the UCI wanted to manipulate anti-doping cases, why would they transfer the responsibility to the ITA? They weren't forced to do it, they could have continued as before in 2021. Unless you are saying that the entire ITA, WADA labs, and almost all European NADAs are corrupt (since the ITA always works together with the national anti-doping agencies at the race location)... there is nothing to suggest that the ITA is playing dirty games. The reality is that failing a doping test is like failing an IQ test.

By the way, ITA enforces WADA rules. UCI enforces UCI rules, such as the tramadol testing, which is not on the WADA prohibited list.

There is nothing 'twisted' in my logic. You are reading things I did not say.

I am not saying that ITA is playing dirty. Compare it with corrupt politics and the law. It is not because there is a trustworthy system in place to ensure the law is enforced that there are no corrupt politicians that now its limits and rig the system.

I am neither saying that the UCI has the intention to manipulate the system. However there might be individuals that are bribed to do things or avoid doing things in order to give a team an unfair advantage.

History has shown that this is not uncommon at all. It's not twisted logic. Just check the history of FIFA as an example of an organisation with a lot of corruption. It's not because there is no direct evidence that we should be naive.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

There is nothing 'twisted' in my logic. You are reading things I did not say.

I am not saying that ITA is playing dirty. Compare it with corrupt politics and the law. It is not because there is a trustworthy system in place to ensure the law is enforced that there are no corrupt politicians that now its limits and rig the system.

I am neither saying that the UCI has the intention to manipulate the system. However there might be individuals that are bribed to do things or avoid doing things in order to give a team an unfair advantage.

History has shown that this is not uncommon at all. It's not twisted logic. Just check the history of FIFA as an example of an organisation with a lot of corruption. It's not because there is no direct evidence that we should be naive.

I'm really struggling to understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that the results of the doping tests have been tampered with? Or what? I would like to hear more about your theory, as I doubt you have any idea how sample collection works.

Anyway, I think you've watched too many stupid movies. I already mentioned this, but I'm 100% sure that failing a doping test is like failing an IQ test. So I doubt that any kind of secret activity is involving ITA/WADA/UCI employees... Lazy cheaters like Armstrong wouldn't work nowadays,

The UCI could conduct in-house doping tests, as the Americans do, where 90% of athletes compete outside the WADA doping code and even 60% of american Olympic athletes are massively under-tested compared to the rest of the World while being protected by the hardcore gangsters at USADA. Not that anyone cares, right?

But this is Europe, so at least for the sake of the image, independent doping tests are carried out. Is this effective? Probably not. Doping cheaters are always step ahead of the testers.

 

[peterfin]

I'm really struggling to understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that the results of the doping tests have been tampered with? Or what? I would like to hear more about your theory, as I doubt you have any idea how sample collection works.

Anyway, I think you've watched too many stupid movies. I already mentioned this, but I'm 100% sure that failing a doping test is like failing an IQ test. So I doubt that any kind of secret activity is involving ITA/WADA/UCI employees... Lazy cheaters like Armstrong wouldn't work nowadays,

The UCI could conduct in-house doping tests, as the Americans do, where 90% of athletes compete outside the WADA doping code and even 60% of american Olympic athletes are massively under-tested compared to the rest of the World while being protected by the hardcore gangsters at USADA. Not that anyone cares, right?

But this is Europe, so at least for the sake of the image, independent doping tests are carried out. Is this effective? Probably not. Doping cheaters are always step ahead of the testers.

"Anyway, I think you've watched too many stupid movies."

I watched cycling for 40 years. You could consider them stupid movies . I have seen many stupid things, including from those I was a fan of too. Ullrich just to name one...

You say this is Europe but standards differ. Eastern Europe has its problems and the influence of entities such as UAE is undeniable. So, no, I don't know all the details of the protocols. Maybe they are for the firsr time really perfect. However, I am sceptical.