World Politics

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blaxland said:
Yes im also a bit excited to get the chance to remove this sh%%y Government,but im concerned that most people in this part of the world are mere sheeple,s and will only vote them back in"my fingers are crossed that im wrong.

I think, only mistakes leading up to the election could lose it for the Liberals. As long as there are no scandals and stupid mistakes, I think Liberals can win. Only Abbott's personal unpopularity will make it closer than it should have been. Luckily for him, Gillard is just as unpopular or worse. I think the country badly needs fresh blood or a change.
 
Alphabet said:
What? APEC and the EU are nothing alike! APEC is just a group of countries that meet every few years to promote free trade,[...]

EU is maybe more powerful but both have as main goal, promoting liberal economy and free-market, unlike ACF thinks. Article 63 of the TFEU (which I mentioned above) is very telling.


Alphabet said:
As for this whole right-left business, I agree with ACF and I think your argument isn't correct.

You may think what you want, my argument is correct.

All the founding fathers of liberalism (Smith, the Enlightenment, Tocqueville, etc.) were politically and philosophically left-wingers in their time.

Political and philosophical left is a movement aiming at more freedom, struggling against authoritarian regime, wether culturally or economically.

It has nothing to do with social inequality (the left does not have the monopoly of heart !!). The first "socialist" or "unionist" movement in the 19th century, never saw themselves as left-winger. Neither did Marx nor Engels. I insist. Which makes sense because the left were the Bourgeois/merchants who led to the French Revolution.

Only at the turn of the 20th century, the socialist movement and the political left made a historical "agreement" (So the great French philosopher Jean-Claude Michéa situated it at the Dreyfus Affair) but since the failure of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War this agreement was void and the left was back to its primary root, promoting liberalism and capitalism.

Hence Michéa would point to the mistake (or lie !) made by the far-left who would consider capitalism as essentially "conservative" while the capitalist system is definitely "progressive" in its nature. Lasch also noticed it.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Echoes said:
EU is maybe more powerful but both have as main goal, promoting liberal economy and free-market, unlike ACF thinks. Article 63 of the TFEU (which I mentioned above) is very telling.




You may think what you want, my argument is correct.

All the founding fathers of liberalism (Smith, the Enlightenment, Tocqueville, etc.) were politically and philosophically left-wingers in their time.

Political and philosophical left is a movement aiming at more freedom, struggling against authoritarian regime, wether culturally or economically.

It has nothing to do with social inequality (the left does not have the monopoly of heart !!). The first "socialist" or "unionist" movement in the 19th century, never saw themselves as left-winger. Neither did Marx nor Engels. I insist. Which makes sense because the left were the Bourgeois/merchants who led to the French Revolution.

Only at the turn of the 20th century, the socialist movement and the political left made a historical "agreement" (So the great French philosopher Jean-Claude Michéa situated it at the Dreyfus Affair) but since the failure of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War this agreement was void and the left was back to its primary root, promoting liberalism and capitalism.

Hence Michéa would point to the mistake (or lie !) made by the far-left who would consider capitalism as essentially "conservative" while the capitalist system is definitely "progressive" in its nature. Lasch also noticed it.

The problems you identify are not people classifying "left" and "right" wrongly, they are limitations of thinking about politics in terms of just two classifications. A word means what those hearing it (or likely to hear it) think it means. What you want it to mean is largely irrelevant. Whether you like it or not, economically speaking, the term "left" is taken to mean "higher tax, higher spending" and "right" the opposite. Socially speaking it has meant "more freedom" while "right" is again the opposite.

What people see themselves as is, again, largely irrelevant. I could go around saying "I am a chimpanzee", but that does not make me one if other people do not agree with me on what the word "chimpanzee" means. If everyone thought it meant "20-year-old who wears hipster glasses" then I would be right. If everyone thinks it means "a particular type of medium-sized black-haired ape native to the West-African jungle", then I am wrong. Left and right are limited, yes, but don't pretend they don't also exist.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Caruut said:
The problems you identify are not people classifying "left" and "right" wrongly, they are limitations of thinking about politics in terms of just two classifications. A word means what those hearing it (or likely to hear it) think it means. What you want it to mean is largely irrelevant. Whether you like it or not, economically speaking, the term "left" is taken to mean "higher tax, higher spending" and "right" the opposite. Socially speaking it has meant "more freedom" while "right" is again the opposite.

What people see themselves as is, again, largely irrelevant. I could go around saying "I am a chimpanzee", but that does not make me one if other people do not agree with me on what the word "chimpanzee" means. If everyone thought it meant "20-year-old who wears hipster glasses" then I would be right. If everyone thinks it means "a particular type of medium-sized black-haired ape native to the West-African jungle", then I am wrong. Left and right are limited, yes, but don't pretend they don't also exist.

Thanks Caruut, you probably explained the right-left paridigm a lot better than I do. The right-left spectrum also can be multi-dimensional and is too simplistic to delve into to all the different facets of politics.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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Caruut said:
The problems you identify are not people classifying "left" and "right" wrongly, they are limitations of thinking about politics in terms of just two classifications. A word means what those hearing it (or likely to hear it) think it means. What you want it to mean is largely irrelevant. Whether you like it or not, economically speaking, the term "left" is taken to mean "higher tax, higher spending" and "right" the opposite. Socially speaking it has meant "more freedom" while "right" is again the opposite.

What people see themselves as is, again, largely irrelevant. I could go around saying "I am a chimpanzee", but that does not make me one if other people do not agree with me on what the word "chimpanzee" means. If everyone thought it meant "20-year-old who wears hipster glasses" then I would be right. If everyone thinks it means "a particular type of medium-sized black-haired ape native to the West-African jungle", then I am wrong. Left and right are limited, yes, but don't pretend they don't also exist.

Interestingly, the most extreme "right", in our modern context, that has been implemented would be Fascism, the most "left" being Communism. A (the) most primary difference being who owns the means of production, private capital or the state. Both result in totalitarianism, they come full circle and the arguement turns to shades of grey, at least how we've seen these concepts expressed in the real world. Would you like an oligarchy or an oligarchy?
 
Jun 16, 2009
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RetroActive said:
Interestingly, the most extreme "right", in our modern context, that has been implemented would be Fascism, the most "left" being Communism. A (the) most primary difference being who owns the means of production, private capital or the state. Both result in totalitarianism, they come full circle and the arguement turns to shades of grey, at least how we've seen these concepts expressed in the real world. Would you like an oligarchy or an oligarchy?
Fascism does not support capitalism or a free market, just like communism does not. They are so far around the political circle that they actually have some similarities.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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auscyclefan94 said:
Fascism does not support capitalism or a free market, just like communism does not. They are so far around the political circle that they actually have some similarities.

You almost repeated me, we have no disagreement (yet).:)

Fascism
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

"Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners."

Found what I needed right away.

We could argue about terms all day communist/socialism, Marxist/Leninist, all the variations and nuances. In broad common understanding Fascism represents the far right, Communism the far left. The result for the common person isn't that different - screwed. Funny how that works.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Craig Thompson is facing 149 charges of fraud. If innocent, you really feel sorry for the guy considering that his career in politics is over. If guilty, then he is a manipulative man. I am leaning to the latter.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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If innocent he's probably still been involved in shady activities, amazing people with such a background want to become politicians.
 
Aug 5, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Craig Thompson is facing 149 charges of fraud. If innocent, you really feel sorry for the guy considering that his career in politics is over. If guilty, then he is a manipulative man. I am leaning to the latter.

More good news for the Liberals plus the Obeid corruption scandal in NSW. Might change the minds of a few fence sitters before the election.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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movingtarget said:
More good news for the Liberals plus the Obeid corruption scandal in NSW. Might change the minds of a few fence sitters before the election.

I agree with Ferminal that innocent or not, the guy clearly is involved with some dodgy people doing some dodgy things. His lawyer, Chris McArdle, is a complete media *****. Today he is trying to sue Barry O'Farrell for making a completely simple and factual statement. It is good news for the Liberals but Abbott needs to be careful with his attacks on the Government when relating them to Thompson.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Leader of the Senate and Minister for Science, Chris Evans, has resigned from the cabinet. The week is getting worse for Gillard.
 
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blaxland said:
Agreed and actually live in western sydney,but talking to people about politics and their alliance,s is a touchy issue and every since the Masogenist card was played i have had this sick in the stomach feeling.Just really worried what direction this country is heading,and what future/freedom my children will have?

Reading a vox pop in the paper today, it is amazing to read why people don't like Abbott or are not voting for him. It is either "I don't like him" or he "hasn't got any policies". The policies argument is complete bs. Secondly, what political party releases all policies outright before they have the budgetary figures? I do believe some people have been caught up in the ridiculous misogyny claims.
 
Aug 5, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Reading a vox pop in the paper today, it is amazing to read why people don't like Abbott or are not voting for him. It is either "I don't like him" or he "hasn't got any policies". The policies argument is complete bs. Secondly, what political party releases all policies outright before they have the budgetary figures? I do believe some people have been caught up in the ridiculous misogyny claims.

They definitely did a number on him. Obama chased the women's vote in the USA and Gillard was cashing in by making out his attacks on her in parliament were just gender based bullying attacks. I think it worked for her for a while but her polling is starting to slip again. It sounds like she was also tipped off about Thomson's arrest but she denies that as she denied she knew in advance about the plans to get rid of Rudd.
 
Caruut said:
The problems you identify are not people classifying "left" and "right" wrongly, they are limitations of thinking about politics in terms of just two classifications. A word means what those hearing it (or likely to hear it) think it means. What you want it to mean is largely irrelevant. Whether you like it or not, economically speaking, the term "left" is taken to mean "higher tax, higher spending" and "right" the opposite. Socially speaking it has meant "more freedom" while "right" is again the opposite.

First, it's very arrogant to say "what you want it to mean". It's not my fault if the founding fathers of liberalism were all seated left of the Assembly in 19th century France. Liberalism = Left ! It's a fact.

There is no dichotomy in liberalism. It means more freedom in every aspect of politics.

"Higher tax, higher spendings". What a reductive view of politics !

A right-winger would advocate efficient spendings, not necessarily, lower ones. Taxation is just a very small part of politics. It's all about the position of the state in the economy.

Right-wing: Strategic State
Left-wing/liberalism: No state at all
Communism: Total state

A left-winger/liberal/free-tradist is henceforth an internationalist, working against the interest of his own country. A right-winger is a true patriot ! The Trotskyist is also an internationalist and that's why he's the "useful idiot" of Capitalism.

auscyclefan94 said:
Fascism does not support capitalism or a free market, just like communism does not. They are so far around the political circle that they actually have some similarities.

Bingo. It was about time you admitted you were wrong. QED !
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Mad Elephant Man said:
The only way Tony Abbott is not going to be PM is if he is as bad as he worst critics say he is, not impossible.

The rats are jumpin off the sinking ship, with Roxon going now.
 
Sep 22, 2012
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auscyclefan94 said:
The rats are jumpin off the sinking ship, with Roxon going now.

I think you are going to be very happy on September 15th, although the hangover might be a bad one.
However I could be wrong, I often am.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Mad Elephant Man said:
I think you are going to be very happy on September 15th, although the hangover might be a bad one.
However I could be wrong, I often am.

I don't want to get too confident, but the Libs are looking good. I am planning on having a drinking game with some friends on election night, but at the same time, I don't want to be too hammered that I don't remember Gillard conceding defeat and Abbott claiming victory. :p
 
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I am feeling in a friendly mood, so here are some ALP campaign slogans for September to help Julia out.

"We need to support the United Nations, they're the only organisation more useless than we are".

"Vote Labor, it's easier than finding a job".

"If it ain't broke, we'll fix that".
 
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