World Politics

[BroDeal]

Uh, no. Try doing the job before piping in about it. You just think you know what it is like. There is a reason that people flee the profession before they reach 4 years (I have seem them go in 1 week on more than one occasion), and if you think it is because they are whiny lightweights who are looking for something easier to do, you are sadly mistaken. And it isn't the crappy job that warrants the higher pay, it is the fact that they are teaching children. If you equate digging a ditch to teaching, we have little to discuss.

So what if it's hard? Life is hard. Lots of jobs are hard. There is no amendment to the Constitution that guarantees higher pay for harder work. No one forces people to be teachers. They are educated. A large percentage seem to have Masters degrees these days. They have options.

You never addressed my points. In today's job market, the non-paycheck advantages of working as a teacher are very very large. That makes up for getting paid less than in the private sector.

 

[Hugh Januss]

So what if it's hard? Life is hard. Lots of jobs are hard. There is no amendment to the Constitution that guarantees higher pay for harder work. No one forces people to be teachers. They are educated. A large percentage seem to have Masters degrees these days. They have options.

You never addressed my points. In today's job market, the non-paycheck advantages of working as a teacher are very very large. That makes up for getting paid less than in the private sector.

I blame the capitalist system. Society is seriously out of whack when someone can make 20 million a year to throw a ball through a hoop (or a hundred other things, like acting etc) and the ones responsible for training the next generation mostly don't make it up to "middle class".

 

[Anonymous]

So what if it's hard? Life is hard. Lots of jobs are hard. There is no amendment to the Constitution that guarantees higher pay for harder work. No one forces people to be teachers. They are educated. A large percentage seem to have Masters degrees these days. They have options.

You never addressed my points. In today's job market, the non-paycheck advantages of working as a teacher are very very large. That makes up for getting paid less than in the private sector.

You never addressed my point, have you ever taught? Don't answer, I already know.

Fact is that educating children is of massive importance to people. Ever been to a School Board meeting? They don't have those for ditch diggers. The majority of people with children are extremely concerned with the education of their children. It holds a place well above most other issues in any community. Fact is that because the majority of the money to pay teachers comes from the government, and because it was historically a job dominated by women, the pay was bad. It still is for the level of training, and problems associated with the job.

And if the benefits had been so freaking great, I would have stayed. Funny thing is that you can find many teachers during the summer, just go to Starbucks or any local restaurant. Most of the teachers I knew had summer jobs because they needed them to live. The idea that it is some heaven to have two months off shows your ignorance more than anything else. It isn't nearly two months when you factor in workdays after school ends, and before it begins, nor does it take into account that until you have about 10 years experience (which is a much more rare thing because of people like you who think they are paid well enough), you work during summers.

Honestly, I won't bother going any further on this subject. You have an opinion. You are entitled to it. It would be more valid if you knew what yoiu were talking about.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I blame the capitalist system. Society is seriously out of whack when someone can make 20 million a year to throw a ball through a hoop (or a hundred other things, like acting etc) and the ones responsible for training the next generation mostly don't make it up to "middle class".

Teacher salaries in california:

Starting Salary: $35,760
Average Salary: $59,825

Medium Income in California:


$64,563


Life is not fair and teachers are important (but so are doctors, nurses, policemen, farmers, and many more) but the salary of a teacher is not that fair off, especially when you add in the benefits. I do agree that a teacher has to deal with issues that many others cannot imagine - mainly caused by students that are not familiar with the consequences of bad actions (because the schools are not in favor of teaching cause and effect).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't always agree with him, or his tact, but TFF is completely right here. I taught part-time for a while. I have no intention of going back. The pay sucks, there is incredible bureaucracy because everyone else is underpaid until you're at the admin level (barely), and I had to supply probably half the teaching supplies myself. I also spent many, many hours working off hours, for free.

Why anyone would think a teacher making, say, $38k a year is "overpaid" for this just because they have a retirement package that most people who have a good education and work hard should have, is beyond comprehension.

We live in a world where CEO's, rappers, sports stars, etc. make tens of millions of dollars a year, and when some suggest they could pay a little more in taxes, they scream bloody murder, because their income of $38k per week isn't enough. And yet some people think a teacher making that amount in a year molding the minds of the future of the country, is overpaid. Incomprehensible.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I don't always agree with him, or his tact, but TFF is completely right here. I taught part-time for a while. I have no intention of going back. The pay sucks, there is incredible bureaucracy because everyone else is underpaid until you're at the admin level (barely), and I had to supply probably half the teaching supplies myself. I also spent many, many hours working off hours, for free.

Why anyone would think a teacher making, say, $38k a year is "overpaid" for this just because they have a retirement package that most people who have a good education and work hard should have, is beyond comprehension.

We live in a world where CEO's, rappers, sports stars, etc. make tens of millions of dollars a year, and when some suggest they could pay a little more in taxes, they scream bloody murder, because their income of $38k per week isn't enough. And yet some people think a teacher making that amount in a year molding the minds of the future of the country, is overpaid. Incomprehensible.

I do not think that teachers are overpaid - also, I know that they have a difficult job and the good ones spend more than 40 hours a week working. However, they are not the only educated people out there with low starting salaries (I started out of law school at under 30k per year with a truck load of debt). I know that their do have more benefits than most people without a college education (but that is not a fair comparison). While I disagree with a lot of what is posted, someone said that life is not fair and it truly is not. As a few former teachers have indicated on here, no one forces anyone else to teach and if they conditions are not acceptable the teachers leave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Maybe, just maybe if we paid enough that the good ones stayed (and I'm not saying that some don't) we might have less juvenile deliquency, less entry level crime, and less uneducated voters in our country.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Maybe, just maybe if we paid enough that the good ones stayed (and I'm not saying that some don't) we might have less juvenile deliquency, less entry level crime, and less uneducated voters in our country.

I do not think most career criminal types are going to make a lifestyle change based on a good teacher or two > the problems most often started at home long before they got to the teacher.

 

[Anonymous]

Teacher salaries in california:

Starting Salary: $35,760
Average Salary: $59,825

Medium Income in California:


$64,563


Life is not fair and teachers are important (but so are doctors, nurses, policemen, farmers, and many more) but the salary of a teacher is not that fair off, especially when you add in the benefits. I do agree that a teacher has to deal with issues that many others cannot imagine - mainly caused by students that are not familiar with the consequences of bad actions (because the schools are not in favor of teaching cause and effect).

Why not post their starting and average salaries to be fair. In fact, why not post starting and average salaries for first year attorneys and the average attorney pay also. I think you will again find that based on importance, teachers will still be at the bottom of the list.

And save the "life is hard" speech for kids. I am an adult and don't need anyone telling me in a paternalistic manner that I needed to suck it up. Fact is that until you do the job, you just don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Anonymous]

Starting salary for attorneys in NC: http://tinyurl.com/y8s2zxy

Nurse: http://tinyurl.com/yeyahno

Police: http://tinyurl.com/yetepat

Restaurant Manager: http://tinyurl.com/yav7c6n

Physician: http://tinyurl.com/yd5zby9 (because it was listed as a public servant job)

Electrician I: http://tinyurl.com/ycp6nym

Teacher:http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2009-10schedules.pdf

You have no idea of how difficult it is for that level of pay. None.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I do not think most career criminal types are going to make a lifestyle change based on a good teacher or two > the problems most often started at home long before they got to the teacher.

Yeah, you're right screw it let's not pay teachers at all. With the money we save we'll build more prisons.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Why not post their starting and average salaries to be fair. In fact, why not post starting and average salaries for first year attorneys and the average attorney pay also. I think you will again find that based on importance, teachers will still be at the bottom of the list.

And save the "life is hard" speech for kids. I am an adult and don't need anyone telling me in a paternalistic manner that I needed to suck it up. Fact is that until you do the job, you just don't know what you are talking about.

I have taught (just not for pay) in HS. I mention that life is not fair because it seems people are always focused on what is fair and not fair when it comes to income (no matter what the profession) and it actually was not something I was directing your way.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Yeah, you're right screw it let's not pay teachers at all. With the money we save we'll build more prisons.

I never said they were overpaid by any means - I am just stating the fairly obvious, some students have no desire to learn, skip class and look for trouble. It really does not matter who is teaching this type of student, if they are not willing to pay attention and cut class whenever possible they are not going to learn.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I never said they were overpaid by any means - I am just stating the fairly obvious, some students have no desire to learn, skip class and look for trouble. It really does not matter who is teaching this type of student, if they are not willing to pay attention and cut class whenever possible they are not going to learn.

I don't agree. Much more students can be activated if we act right.
There exist an anti-school culture with a lot of students, but that's a problem we should try to solve!

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I don't agree. Much more students can be activated if we act right.
There exist an anti-school culture with a lot of students, but that's a problem we should try to solve!

When students start posing as gangsters before they start school, arrive at the playground in primary school asking who wants to buy drugs, you might be able to engage them but a majority are just going to be a danger to the learning environment for the students who want to learn.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

so we better just give up on them?


That's a self-fulfilling prophecy

 

[CentralCaliBike]

so we better just give up on them?


That's a self-fulfilling prophecy

I learned some time ago you cannot save everyone - especially those who do not think they need saving.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

If everyone tells you you can't be "saved", you might start thinking you don't need/want saving...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

If everyone tells you you can't be "saved", you might start thinking you don't need/want saving...

The problem is that I get to deal with the families of those they destroy. Try telling someone that their child, mother, sister, or other family member died because we hoped we could save this one individual. My guess is that you have not had the opportunity to deal with victims of violent crime much, unfortunately I have.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't think it's that cut and dry. I also think the solution for serious problem kids is not to just kick them out of all education and toss them into society, waiting for them to turn violent so we can lock them in prison. These students need discipline, yes, but they still need education. We as a society just don't think so. Or we're not interested enough in creating programs that can give them hope, because that's a little more expensive. We're rather pay a few dollars less tax each year and believe that by punishing these people and driving them further into poverty, they'll some how be motivated to clean up and either go to school on their own that will accept them, or get a job and live a law abiding lifestyle.

You have no idea of how difficult it is for that level of pay. None.

I only partly agree with you. I think most people that haven't taught really don't know how much work it is, how much is asked of you. But I think people can learn that by simple reasoning and common sense; they can deduce that education is vital, and teachers should make good wages, and have good benefits. They can deduce this the same way it makes no common sense for politicians that get convicted of crimes, including felonies with prison time, are still allowed to keep their full pensions plus health care for life. At least I would hope so.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

The problem is that I get to deal with the families of those they destroy. Try telling someone that their child, mother, sister, or other family member died because we hoped we could save this one individual. My guess is that you have not had the opportunity to deal with victims of violent crime much, unfortunately I have.

You're right, i've never dealt with victims of violent crime.
But i don't understand your reasoning? Why don't try to prevent these crimes, prevent these peoples to destroy families? And isn't education a good way to accomplish that? (I know peers and family are also very important factors, but education is the one government can control best)

 

[CentralCaliBike]

You're right, i've never dealt with victims of violent crime.
But i don't understand your reasoning? Why don't try to prevent these crimes, prevent these peoples to destroy families? And isn't education a good way to accomplish that? (I know peers and family are also very important factors, but education is the one government can control best)

There are some who's primary interest in life from a very young age is to harm others, it entertains them. I am all for giving an education to those who are willing to accept it. I have a friend who teaches at what we call a continuation school which primarily has a student body consisting of HS students who are hard core gang members who have been kicked out of the other schools for criminal behavior, he hopes to be able to get one or two of the kids turned around but has not seen it (I believe that he is actually more cynical than I am) - and he knows his job is particularly dangerous for him and the students since they are not all from the same gang.

 

[Anonymous]

I have taught (just not for pay) in HS. I mention that life is not fair because it seems people are always focused on what is fair and not fair when it comes to income (no matter what the profession) and it actually was not something I was directing your way.

Teaching a class and being responsible for 180+ people every day, (people who are adolescent, hate going to school, 30% of whom only want to disrupt what you are trying to do,- had a wise old teacher tell me one time that out of a class of 30, 10 will hate you, 10 will love you, and 10 don't care, and that my job was to keep the 10 that don't care from hanging out with the 10 that hated me- all of whom owe you work daily, many of whom fail to hand it in, meaning you have to continue to to work with them because your job depends on it, then attend any after school activities you are involved in (mine was coaching cross country and track-which I received a whopping $800 for the year for the extra 15 hours per week I spent doing that, then you have to grade everything that does come in, log all of that into a system of grading, attend teacher's meetings once per week, 5-10 parent conferences each week, Department meetings once per week, and probably 1-2 other meetings per week...well you get the point) is very different from teaching a lesson, and in now way constitutes knowledge of what it is like to be a teacher.

Tell you what, go to a local business that has around 150 employees and ask the owner if he/she would still do their job for $35,000 (counting in benefits) if he/she were unable to effectively discipline his workforce because he couldn't fire them regardless of how they behave up to and including threats to his/her life. Because a teacher performs the functions of a business owner under the conditions I just described.

 

[Anonymous]

There are some who's primary interest in life from a very young age is to harm others, it entertains them. I am all for giving an education to those who are willing to accept it. I have a friend who teaches at what we call a continuation school which primarily has a student body consisting of HS students who are hard core gang members who have been kicked out of the other schools for criminal behavior, he hopes to be able to get one or two of the kids turned around but has not seen it (I believe that he is actually more cynical than I am) - and he knows his job is particularly dangerous for him and the students since they are not all from the same gang.

And the conditions into which they were brought (unasked mind you) are deplorable and you didn't live through them, but you feel that you can sweepingly judge them? Yes, they deserve to bear the responsibility for their crimes, but failing to understand the complexity of the situation that brought them there does nothing to help solve it. Building more prisons is one answer, but a poor one, and one that will eventually bite a civilization in the a$$. Changing just one kid is worth the effort because generally, those are the kind who might just change a couple of others later in life. Especially if the pay warranted their joining the ranks of teachers.

 

[Tibber]

Teaching a class and being responsible for 180+ people every day, (people who are adolescent, hate going to school, 30% of whom only want to disrupt what you are trying to do,- had a wise old teacher tell me one time that out of a class of 30, 10 will hate you, 10 will love you, and 10 don't care, and that my job was to keep the 10 that don't care from hanging out with the 10 that hated me- all of whom owe you work daily, many of whom fail to hand it in, meaning you have to continue to to work with them because your job depends on it, then attend any after school activities you are involved in (mine was coaching cross country and track-which I received a whopping $800 for the year for the extra 15 hours per week I spent doing that, then you have to grade everything that does come in, log all of that into a system of grading, attend teacher's meetings once per week, 5-10 parent conferences each week, Department meetings once per week, and probably 1-2 other meetings per week...well you get the point) is very different from teaching a lesson, and in now way constitutes knowledge of what it is like to be a teacher.

Tell you what, go to a local business that has around 150 employees and ask the owner if he/she would still do their job for $35,000 (counting in benefits) if he/she were unable to effectively discipline his workforce because he couldn't fire them regardless of how they behave up to and including threats to his/her life. Because a teacher performs the functions of a business owner under the conditions I just described.

So quit teaching and open a business and, mosty importantly, QUIT COMPLANING ABOUT A PROFESSION YOU CHOSE