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Sep 25, 2009
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place - the city hall of ukraine’s 2nd largest city of kharkov.
date - yesterday
600vos5.jpg

^ That group of victorious ukranians waving the russian flags and their fists
just defeated the below shown group of urainians who were thrown out of the city hall they occupied for many days...
600vos3.jpg

including the mere kids
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...those scenes were repeated all over the south-east following the crimea events. pretty much the same lead to the change of government in kiev except no one stood to defend the government buildings
 
Jun 15, 2009
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I guess that is what happens when globalization a la USA meets reality.
Nice to see that finally it might be stopped. Let´s hope so.
 
Sep 8, 2009
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Ukraine has announced it is calling up military reservists, following Russia's decision to allow deployment of troops.

ukrainian government very calm and collective lol. how many reservists do they have? around one million or something
i'd better search for some plane tickets for south africa soon.
 
python said:
hrotha, what ever reading you've done it clearly is insufficient to appreciate more than the narrow 'anti-american nature' of those you disagree with.

i can not speak for others, but unlike you, i clearly blame both the cynical west and the cynical russians for exploiting the the ethnic, cultural and religious divide between the ukrainians. both !

what exactly criticizing american politics got to do with it ?


when the russians threaten to protect their compatriots, cynical as they may be, they are at least getting involved into the the country having 2000 km common border with them. they are getting involved into a country having 40% of its trade with them. they are getting involved into a country that banned their language for about half of its citizens. they are getting involved on behalf of about one half of the ukrainians who don't care about joining the eu (check the polls) despite being dragged into it by a bunch of putschists from the ukrainian west. they are getting involved on behalf of 150,000 Ukrainian refugees and several million of illegal workers... they are clearly getting involved, yes via manipulations and threats of armed action, into the existentially crucial issues for them.

what exactly are the existential issues for germany, france and the us in the matter ?

To answer your last question, there are none other than cynically expanding the free-market. You highlight many of the reasons I find to be cogent in any analysis of the conflict. Looking at the narrative from another point of view, I think it's safe to say there is no difference in the level of cynicism between America and Europe and Putin's Russia, while it's equally clear that sutaining the population of the Crimea doesn't mean sustaining Putin per se. Anti-politics, on the other hand, is to support a golpe for a bias.

I’m beginning to understand that the European Union that wants to cage certain economic discourses finds only the US inside. It’s about time, however, that it stops stirring up a clearly Russian population, even if the Western narrative doesn't say that. Where do we want the EU to arrive, dear Obama, in Manchuria? Thus Putin becomes the Tsar, as he is pressed into an imperialist mode in defense of another imperialism. Yet its only imperialism when the enemy acts. In terms of a strategic justification for this, it's enough to remember that half of the natural gas that arrives in Europe from Russia, passes through Ukraine.

One understands that it’s convenient for the West that Russia’s position is debilitated in order to divide the various lucrative procurements in the region, without even considering that another ex-Soviet state in the EU would mean a further enlarging of Europe’s business affairs. On the other hand, however, so too would delocalization further increase by transferring companies with underpaid Ukrainians, while creating unemployment in the places of origin. Empty funds that subsequently mainly get bought by the Chinese and not reinvested in the Ukraine. Either way the country loses passing from a political philo-Russian “dictatorship” (in a manner of speaking, because they should know who the real dictators are in those parts), to a philo-Western economy with a debt to pay towards gigantic Russia. The Ukraine is thus the last in a long line of victim states caused by Made in the USA state coups. Once Bill Clinton said. “You know why there has never been a state coup in the US? Because fortunately we don’t have an American embassy.” It's possible that the West will now be made to pay for the Kosovo breakaway.

This is ulterior proof of the disappearance of Europe’s left and of the breakdowns this has provoked at the international level. I’ve read, and some immigrants have confirmed this, that the social situation is critical and that there are gross differences between the cities and the countryside with a diffuse poverty. Notwithstanding that after the fall of the Soviet Union there were periods of economic growth in the various regions of Ukraine, even if there weren’t lacking restrictive classes that in addition to holding political power also appropriated the riches. Isn’t it thus a propitious time for a social revolution that unites, rather than divides the country? Instead the Ukrainians risk remaining victims to a maneuvered conflict, as usual by the same ones who have reduced them to poverty and that’s backed by the global powers.

At the same time this risks being turned into a situation that could drag Europe toward a reawakening of nationalisms and identities of all kinds.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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RetroActive said:
hahaha, how did you get that through the language filter?


Paid protesters?
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-...0...1.1.34.heirloom-hp..0.40.3594.au8uqdKyrws

Python said it best when he was talking about the Ukraine being caught in the middle...a house divided and all that.

....paid protesters?....not only paid but imported as well....this little spontaneous little party seems to have taken a lot of time to organize and involved some very strange bedfellows....see below..

" In mid December 2013(!) the Turkish website Aydinlik Daily reported:

According to news appearing in the French, Ukrainian and Russian press, Turkish Intelligence has a finger in the ongoing pro-EU protests in Ukraine. News stories from these three nations have claimed that the governmental intelligence organization of Turkey, the National Intelligence Organization (MİT) organized the transfer of separatist, jihadist Tatars trained in Turkey to the Ukraine. According to French news site Egalite et Réconciliation, dozens of Crimean Tatar Jihadists were extracted from Syria by the MİT and transferred to Ukraine via Turkey on an İstanbul-Sevastopol flight of Turkish Airlines on the 22 November. According to information based on sources from the Security Service of Ukraine, (SBU), Crimean Tatars who attended the protests in Ukraine's capital Kiev on November 21 were charged with establishing the security of the square. The Crimean security staff who obtained the support of separatist "Azatlık" movement operating in Russian city of Kazan received political support from Nail Nabiullin, the current president of Tatar Youth League in Azatlık."

....to which the author adds the following ( btw the last bit seems quite interesting and potentially important considering Western posturing on the Crimea issue )..

"The picture emerging from the above seems to show that:
• Turkish intelligence helped with training Tatars in support of a local Crimea anti-Russian coup
• Russian intelligence has thoroughly penetrated the coup-plotters communications (see Nuland tape) and knew what was coming
• Russian aligned forces secured the Crimea and prevented infiltration of more Tataric units from Turkey
•On the Crimea, as well as in other Russian aligned areas in east Ukraine (Donetsk, Mykolaiv and Dnipropetrovsk), counter coups are establishing separate regions which will ask for Russian support and eventual incorporation into the Russian Federation
•If all this goes well for the Russians the "western" coup in Kiev will have resulted in the "west" acquiring a bankrupt, dirt poor west Ukraine while Russia will acquire the industry and resource rich east Ukraine and will keep the Crimea as its strategic asset
•In the context of the war of Syria the coup in the Ukraine was a countermeasure to Russian support for Syria. Unless the Crimea falls to coup forces that countermeasure will have failed.

There is little the U.S. can say against Russian troops in Crimea. According to the status of force agreement Russia can post up to 30,000 soldiers there. The normal size of its forces there is just half of that. If Russia wants to reinforce those it can do so without breaking any national or international agreement.

Today the government of Crimea brought forward a referendum on the region's status to March 30 and called for Russian help. What is the "west" going to say against that? If self-determination applies to Kosovo it surely also applies to the Crimea as well as to other east Ukrainian areas."

....from... ww.moonofalabama.org ....as for the veracity of the above?...compared to the crap coming out of the Western MSM?....

Cheers
 
Oct 16, 2012
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Most of the contributers here on the current Ukraine crisis belong to troofer conspiratorial mad zone.

The ramblings of the deluded
 
Jul 4, 2009
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python said:
what exactly are the existential issues for germany, france and the us in the matter ?

....you may be interested in the following ( from a recent article written by Pepe Escobar....a writer who is usually throwing out some very inconvenient truths...)

"As Immanuel Wallerstein has already observed, [2] Nuland, Kagan and the neo-con gang are as much terrified of Russia "dominating" Ukraine as of a slowly emerging, and eventually quite possible, geopolitical alliance between Germany (with France as a junior partner) and Russia. That would mean the heart of the European Union forging a counter-power to the dwindling, increasingly wobbly American power. "

...now this did strike me as a little strange but one has to look at this against the way in which the rioters would produce a crisis whenever a EU initiative to solve the crisis was put forward ( read the rioters were timing their attacks to a script that screamed a "f$ck the EU" meme )...

...and do remember that the original proposal put forth by Putin involved a financial rescue plan for The Ukraine that was a joint venture between Russia and the EU....some observers have said this was the primary trigger that started the US orchestrated push to play hardball politics in The Ukraine....

....and there is this little bit...

"
Let's take a closer look at the new Aperol Spritz "revolutionary" wallet. Every month, the natural gas import bill from Russia is roughly US$1 billion. In January, the country also had to spend $1.1 billion in debt repayment. Foreign currency reserves plunged to $17.8 billion from $20.4 billion. Ukraine has a minimum debt repayment of no less than $17 billion in 2014. They even had to cancel a $2 billion eurobond issue late last week.

Frankly, Russian President Vladimir Putin - aka Vlad the Hammer - must be grinning like the Cheshire cat. He could simply erase the significant 33% discount on natural gas imports he gave Kiev late last year. Rumor after rumor already state - ominously - that the Aperol Spritz revolutionaries won't have the cash to pay pensions and public servants' salaries. In June comes a monster payment to a bunch of creditors ($1 billion in debt will mature). Afterwards, it's bleaker than north Siberia in winter.

The US offer of $1 billion is risible. And all this after the ""F**k the EU" "strategy" of Victoria Nuland torpedoed an Ukrainian transitional government - by the way, negotiated by the EU - which might have kept the Russians on board, money-wise.

Without Russia, Ukraine will totally depend on the West to pay all its bills, not to mention avoid being bankrupt. That amounts to a whopping $30 billion until the end of 2014. Unlike Egypt, they cannot dial the House of Saud's number and ask for some juicy petrodollars. That $15 billion loan from Russia promised recently could come in handy - but Moscow must get something in return.

The notion that Putin will order a military attack on the Ukraine should be billed to US corporate media's sub-zoological intellectual quotient. Vlad the Hammer just needs to watch the circus - as in the West squabbling about where to get those billions to be squandered in a (torn) basket case. Or the International Monetary Fund churning out yet another dreadful "structural adjustment" to send Ukraine's population back to the Paleolithic.

Crimea could even stage its own delayed carnival, voting not only for more autonomy but to leave the (torn) basket case altogether. In this case, Putin will even get Crimea for free - Krushchev-style. Not a bad deal. Thanks to that oh so strategic "F**k the EU" Russian "pivot".

Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007), Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge (Nimble Books, 2007), and Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009).

He may be reached at pepeasia@yahoo.com. "

....from.. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-05-280214.html

....gonna be a very interesting time for the neocon clowns at the brain trust that put this little show on as the " government " that was pulled out of the IMF's a$$ is, according to internetz rumours, is being rent by internal dissent as we speak..."Yats" does not have much support on the ground and there may not be much appetite from the rank-and-file Western Ukrainians to go to war to prop up such a transparent IMF plant ( his numbers in the last election were abysmal btw and he has a lot of baggage that won't play well to the mob in this little production....read, he may become a worse Karzai than Karzai, which would be quite a feat...)

Cheers
 
Jul 30, 2011
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blutto said:
....you may be interested in the following ( from a recent article written by Pepe Escobar....a writer who is usually throwing out some very inconvenient truths...)

"As Immanuel Wallerstein has already observed, [2] Nuland, Kagan and the neo-con gang are as much terrified of Russia "dominating" Ukraine as of a slowly emerging, and eventually quite possible, geopolitical alliance between Germany (with France as a junior partner) and Russia. That would mean the heart of the European Union forging a counter-power to the dwindling, increasingly wobbly American power. "

...now this did strike me as a little strange but one has to look at this against the way in which the rioters would produce a crisis whenever a EU initiative to solve the crisis was put forward ( read the rioters were timing their attacks to a script that screamed a "f$ck the EU" meme )...

....and there is this little bit...

"
Let's take a closer look at the new Aperol Spritz "revolutionary" wallet. Every month, the natural gas import bill from Russia is roughly US$1 billion. In January, the country also had to spend $1.1 billion in debt repayment. Foreign currency reserves plunged to $17.8 billion from $20.4 billion. Ukraine has a minimum debt repayment of no less than $17 billion in 2014. They even had to cancel a $2 billion eurobond issue late last week.

Frankly, Russian President Vladimir Putin - aka Vlad the Hammer - must be grinning like the Cheshire cat. He could simply erase the significant 33% discount on natural gas imports he gave Kiev late last year. Rumor after rumor already state - ominously - that the Aperol Spritz revolutionaries won't have the cash to pay pensions and public servants' salaries. In June comes a monster payment to a bunch of creditors ($1 billion in debt will mature). Afterwards, it's bleaker than north Siberia in winter.

The US offer of $1 billion is risible. And all this after the ""F**k the EU" "strategy" of Victoria Nuland torpedoed an Ukrainian transitional government - by the way, negotiated by the EU - which might have kept the Russians on board, money-wise.

Without Russia, Ukraine will totally depend on the West to pay all its bills, not to mention avoid being bankrupt. That amounts to a whopping $30 billion until the end of 2014. Unlike Egypt, they cannot dial the House of Saud's number and ask for some juicy petrodollars. That $15 billion loan from Russia promised recently could come in handy - but Moscow must get something in return.

The notion that Putin will order a military attack on the Ukraine should be billed to US corporate media's sub-zoological intellectual quotient. Vlad the Hammer just needs to watch the circus - as in the West squabbling about where to get those billions to be squandered in a (torn) basket case. Or the International Monetary Fund churning out yet another dreadful "structural adjustment" to send Ukraine's population back to the Paleolithic.

Crimea could even stage its own delayed carnival, voting not only for more autonomy but to leave the (torn) basket case altogether. In this case, Putin will even get Crimea for free - Krushchev-style. Not a bad deal. Thanks to that oh so strategic "F**k the EU" Russian "pivot".

Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007), Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge (Nimble Books, 2007), and Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009).

He may be reached at pepeasia@yahoo.com. "

....gonna be a very interesting for the brain trust that put this little show on as the " government " that was pulled out of the IMF's a$$ is, according to internetz rumours being rent by internal dissent as we speak...

Cheers

too hyperbolic, but yes.
 
del1962 said:
So what do you think of the ousted president shooting and killing the protestors, I guess its ok as long as he does it in the name of anti-americanism?

The question could be posed another way: what do you think of the numerous state sponsored coups in the name of extending US economic hegemony throughout the globe, which caused untold deaths and suffering while toppling democratically legitimized governments? I guess it's ok as long as it's done in the name of pro-Americanism? Condemnable actions don’t become virtuous based on whose doing them.

Then, like the free market, it’s the strong powers ability to break the rules by which any intervention, or military action, is given international legitimacy, without having to pay the price for breaking them: the same way the giant multi-nationals can get away from their full fiscal responsibility to the collective, in ways for which the small business get heavily penalized. When Iraq invaded Kuwait the repercussions were what they were, though when the US invaded Iraq on spurious charges the "coalition of the willing" was dragged in under UN aegis.

Even this, though, isn't what should be debated here. What's important to recognize is that for far too long the strong powers have made prey of those weak ones, whenever the opportunity has arisen to augment their sphere of power and economic influence. However in the current chess game being played out, its the usual victims of those that have impoverished them who are made to pay the heavy penalty for other's benefit.

Putin is the worst type of anti-democratic leader, however, I don't see anything worse about Russia's invasion of the Crimea, than the greed and power driven motives behind why the US and Western plutocrats find it necessary to extend their market sphere into near Asia. At some point the anachronistic colonial and Cold War policy needs to be given up and replaced with something less opportunistic, predatory and objective before anything else. That’s what’s missing in all of this: objectivity.
 
Sep 8, 2009
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del1962 said:
Most of the contributers here on the current Ukraine crisis belong to troofer conspiratorial mad zone.

pretty scary these schizofrenic ramblings i agree.
if i could, i would send these people right in the thick of the action to feel it how it really is. many of them will return to reality after that kind of experience
 
Jul 4, 2009
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del1962 said:
Most of the contributers here on the current Ukraine crisis belong to troofer conspiratorial mad zone.

The ramblings of the deluded

...curious...what brand of asbestos shorts do you prefer?...

Cheers
 
jens_attacks said:
hrotha, of course russia is worse than usa mob or eu. anyone with two brain cells knows that
but python's points are correct, this government i don't find it mentally sane

Yarosh, who is a self-proclaimed deputy secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine

The message, signed “leader of Right Sector Dmitry Yarosh” then calls on Umarov “to activate his fight” and “take a unique chance to win” over Russia.
The radical leader has been consistently anti-Russian in his statements, calling for the destruction and division of the “Moscow Empire” and openly supporting Chechen militants and Georgian aggression. Yarosh believes Russia is Ukraine’s “eternal foe” and has said that war between the two countries is “inevitable.”



many who lead now ukraine share his extreme nationalist views. that is ridiulously dangerous.
maybe some ukrainian posters here can share their ideas.

Good points.
 
Jul 30, 2011
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jens_attacks said:
pretty scary these schizofrenic ramblings i agree.
if i could, i would send these people right in the thick of the action to feel it how it really is. many of them will return to reality after that kind of experience

Do you think this "thick of the action" differs substantially from various others in the past few years?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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jens_attacks said:
pretty scary these schizofrenic ramblings i agree.
if i could, i would send these people right in the thick of the action to feel it how it really is. many of them will return to reality after that kind of experience

...btw it really helps to have numerous long-time connections in the western Ukraine to cut thru the western MSM crap, errr, journalism....where are yours located ?....and please don't say on a computer screen in your mamma's basement....

Cheers
 
Sep 8, 2009
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blutto said:
...btw it really helps to have numerous long-time connections in the western Ukraine to cut thru the western MSM crap, errr, journalism....where are yours located ?....and please don't say on a computer screen in your mamma's basement....

Cheers



my "basement" is some 50 kms to ukraine border and in a city, many people i know traffic cigarettes from beautiful ukraine . you're the man though, i don't have any connections :(
you have the truth in your hands blutto. now go to house to house and let people know.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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rhubroma said:
It's possible that the West will now be made to pay for the Kosovo breakaway.
the crimea crisis is not about kosovo at all. kosovo had already been paid back handsomely in 2008.
then, abkhazia and south osetia became 'independent' in almost a mirror action and rhetoric, that is, defending a people against 'annihilation by the georgians'. when europe and the us ignored yeltsyn and took advantage of weak russia by bombing serbia into a submission disregarding the paramount legal cornerstone of post ww2 europe - putin took a note. he swore that russia will not be caught weak again.

the crimea crisis is far more complicated and at the same time simple . while using the same cynical tools (giving out passports, fermenting uprising etc) it is about russia's impatience with being constantly ignored. ' disregard our vital interest, and we will take care of ourselves'. it is a statement of being strong a ready to pay the price, though, to some this will always be an illusion.

you mentioned the ukraine's eu membership...imho, while it certainly started the ball rolling downhill, it is a separate complex issue. there are many good and bad points there that need very carefull analysis. to put it simply, while a country like portugal or ireland or spain belonging to the eu is a no brainer, it is whole different ball game for a hugely vulnerable ukraine as long as russia's economy is based on non-eu standards.

anyway, the developments of the last 24 hours, even though it was relatively calm, tell me that crimea is irrevocably lost to ukraine.

very soon it will be the ukraine, if they can pay :p, who will be renting bases for their fleet and not the other way around as is the case now. why ?

because, the new crimean powers are taking absolute and total control of everything including military bases and airspace. about an hour ago i read that there an ultimatum issued to central govt soldiers on the peninsula -to go over to the self defense forces, or else.
 
Jun 14, 2010
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del1962 said:
So what do you think of the ousted president shooting and killing the protestors, I guess its ok as long as he does it in the name of anti-americanism?

I'm guessing you guessed right, considering the response
rhubroma said:
The question could be posed another way: what do you think of the numerous state sponsored coups in the name of extending US economic hegemony throughout the globe, which caused untold deaths and suffering while toppling democratically legitimized governments?

What "democratically legitimized governments" have the United States toppled in the last quarter of a century?

And even if they had, why exactly is this supposed to give carte blanche to everyone else to behave how they want?:confused:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
I wish them all the best, so that we have an even situation like in the good old days pre 1991.

So you'd have hundreds of millions of people re-enslaved under a brutal system of dictatorships, in order to satisfy a hate you have?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Good to see you, blutto. I shall return after Feyenoord-Ajax finishes.

In short, what we've got here is a big, juicy sh!t sandwich....
 
meat puppet said:
for the record, I think that python has it about right, and IMHO this is the only ethically sustainable "contra" attitude given the facts.

i have expressed my "pro" attitude before, ie the side of the workers, minorities etc. IMHO they are being shafted; the current govt is one of the most suspect/fascist since the IIWW and the shock doctrine offerers are not there to play. but if that's the way the ukrainians choose, so be it. the choice between cholera and plague is not an easy one, as i said before.

I'd wager crimea will split from ukraine. tatars will be shafted once again. hope this does not escalate, but dont believe there will be open warfare, at the moment at least.

And this seems to be historically the modus operandi of US backed coups: place a fascist/anti-social regime in power through financial backing in the name of capitalism and to hell with the horrendous consequences this has for the local ethnic populations. So long as the expansion of the "free-market" is ensured and the socialist boogeyman is thwarted (this, of little concern today) the ends justify the means.

There's a lot of talk about "invasion," well more insidious forms besides sending troops exist. When you can simply impose a government to your image and liking through coercion and bribery, then there's no need to invade with an army. It's far less messy in appearance and the stupid masses don't realize what you've done.

Tito's fall and the disillusionment of the social Pan-Slavia had given way to ethnic cleansing. Sure the dictator's iron fist was potent, though was here imposed in light of a greater cause, namely prevention of the type of nationalisms that led to the ethnic disaster in its absence. You can bet with Russia in control of Ukraine similar efforts to unite the disparate parties to avoid the worst ethnic-religious conflicts would be policy. By contrast, as has been witnessed time and time again, a US and Western backed fascist regime would only exacerbate them.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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jens_attacks said:
my "basement" is some 50 kms to ukraine border and in a city, many people i know traffic cigarettes from beautiful ukraine . you're the man though, i don't have any connections :(
you have the truth in your hands blutto. now go to house to house and let people know.

...well before we go off knocking on doors and bothering people on a quiet Sunday am going to, if I may, ask you a question....what has been your exposure to the Bandura acolytes that have become the shock troops for this democratic revolution?....and if you actually have had some exposure to those wonderful freedom fighters, what do you think of them and the place from whence they came?.....

...btw, is your basement nice?.......

Cheers
 
Sep 8, 2009
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there are lunatics on both sides. of course it wasn't a democratic revolution. i never said that. but let's not make it such a big conspiracy. if some idiots hoolingans wants to beat against the police you will probably say too that they are paid by the illuminati whose ancestors were genuine, well behaved reptilians.

and yes, it's a nice basement, got food,water and most important,internet. cheers blutto
 
Jul 4, 2009
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jens_attacks said:
there are lunatics on both sides. of course it wasn't a democratic revolution. i never said that. but let's not make it such a big conspiracy. if some idiots hoolingans wants to beat against the police you will probably say too that they are paid by the illuminati whose ancestors were genuine, well behaved reptilians.

and yes, it's a nice basement, got food,water and most important,internet. cheers blutto

....yeah the world is full of lunatics and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west...big deal....so back to your luxury basement and my earlier post....those were fairly simple questions....kinda curious why you couldn't answer them.....I mean those folks were such heroic figures in your part of the world during WW2 one would think you would have, given the historical echo, some opinion on the subject....

Cheers
 
The Hitch said:
I'm guessing you guessed right, considering the response

What "democratically legitimized governments" have the United States toppled in the last quarter of a century?


And even if they had, why exactly is this supposed to give carte blanche to everyone else to behave how they want?:confused:

So you'd have hundreds of millions of people re-enslaved under a brutal system of dictatorships, in order to satisfy a hate you have?

I can't believe you even asked me that question Hitch. Now bend over...:D

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1033593

As to the second point, typical conservative poo. And coming from a young lad such as yourself is rather disheartening.

Nobody is giving carte blanche to anyone, if anything that has been held by a certain superpower over the last quarter century, on no other grounds than for a lack of a counterbalance to its power. At any rate accusing another of behaving as "they want," when that's what you've been doing all along makes the accusation merely rhetorical. This isn't what the current crisis needs, by the way.

You are rather specialized at shuffling the cards, Hitch; though it's stupefying the absence of historical sense coming from one who in terms of a historical perspective shouldn't be lacking.

In every one of the states the US toppled, what was the outcome? FoxxyBrown has already pointed out up-thread what the business praxis does to the absorbed nations within its global empire, which you should know, though there is hardly anything principled about it. That's what I'm interested in, principle, in the objective sense, not holding on to cheap ideological and historical totems just to assuage my fears of a return of one state's crimes.

As far as hundreds of millions of people enslaved to brutal dictatorships goes, Stalinist USSR has been far from the only culprit in that obscenity.

The truth is that a Ukraine within the Russian sphere will probably give more stability to the region and more guarantees to all the ethnic-religious groups in the territory, than a Western backed, nationalist, and hence fascist, government; which in addition would merely see empty funds siphoned out of the territory and poured into international business and finance. Sure a Russian oligarchic business model wouldn’t benefit Ukrainian workers much more, though it's what they've got anyway and at least the country would be out of the hands of the nationalists.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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....yeah can't tell your reptiles without a program....so here is an article that could sub as a bit of an ad-hoc program...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Mark Ames
On February 28, 2014

centeruatop
Just hours after last weekend’s ouster of Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, one of Pierre Omidyar’s newest hires at national security blog “The Intercept,” was already digging for the truth.

Marcy Wheeler, who is the new site’s “senior policy analyst,” speculated that the Ukraine revolution was likely a “coup” engineered by “deep” forces on behalf of “Pax Americana”:


“There’s quite a bit of evidence of coup-ness. Q is how many levels deep interference from both sides is.”

These are serious claims. So serious that I decided to investigate them. And what I found was shocking.

Wheeler is partly correct. Pando has confirmed that the American government – in the form of the US Agency for International Development (USAID) – played a major role in funding opposition groups prior to the revolution. Moreover, a large percentage of the rest of the funding to those same groups came from a US billionaire who has previously worked closely with US government agencies to further his own business interests. This was by no means a US-backed “coup,” but clear evidence shows that US investment was a force multiplier for many of the groups involved in overthrowing Yanukovych.

But that’s not the shocking part.

What’s shocking is the name of the billionaire who co-invested with the US government (or as Wheeler put it: the “dark deep force” acting on behalf of “Pax Americana”).

Step out of the shadows…. Wheeler’s boss, Pierre Omidyar.

Yes, in the annals of independent media, this might be the strangest twist ever: According to financial disclosures and reports seen by Pando, the founder and publisher of Glenn Greenwald’s government-bashing blog,“The Intercept,” co-invested with the US government to help fund regime change in Ukraine.

[Update: Wheeler has responded on Twitter to say that her Tweets were taken out of context, but would not give specifics. Adam Colligan, with whom Wheeler was debating, commented on Pando that "while Wheeler did raise the issue of external interference in relation to a discussion about a coup, it was not really at all in the manner that you have portrayed." Further "[Pax Americana] appeared after the conversation had shifted from the idea of whether a coup had been staged by the Ukrainian Parliament to a question about the larger powers’ willingness to weaken underlying economic conditions in a state.” Neither Wheeler or Colligan has commented on the main subject of the story: Pierre Omidyar’s co-investment in Ukrainian opposition groups with the US government.]

* * * *

When the revolution came to Ukraine, neo-fascists played a front-center role in overthrowing the country’s president. But the real political power rests with Ukraine’s pro-western neoliberals. Political figures like Oleh Rybachuk, long a favorite of the State Department, DC neocons, EU, and NATO—and the right-hand man to Orange Revolution leader Viktor Yushchenko.

Last December, the Financial Times wrote that Rybachuk’s “New Citizen” NGO campaign “played a big role in getting the protest up and running.”

New Citizen, along with the rest of Rybachuk’s interlocking network of western-backed NGOs and campaigns— “Center UA” (also spelled “Centre UA”), “Chesno,” and “Stop Censorship” to name a few — grew their power by targeting pro-Yanukovych politicians with a well-coordinated anti-corruption campaign that built its strength in Ukraine’s regions, before massing in Kiev last autumn.

The efforts of the NGOs were so successful that the Ukraine government was accused of employing dirty tricks to shut them down. In early February, the groups were the subject of a massive money laundering investigation by the economics division of Ukraine’s Interior Ministry in what many denounced as a politically motivated move.

Fortunately the groups had the strength – which is to say, money – to survive those attacks and continue pushing for regime change in Ukraine. The source of that money?

According to the Kyiv Post, Pierrie Omidyar’s Omidyar Network (part of the Omidyar Group which owns First Look Media and the Intercept) provided 36% of “Center UA”’s $500,000 budget in 2012— nearly $200,000. USAID provided 54% of “Center UA”’s budget for 2012. Other funders included the US government-backed National Endowment for Democracy.

In 2011, Omidyar Network gave $335,000 to “New Citizen,” one of the anti-Yanukovych “projects” managed through the Rybachuk-chaired NGO “Center UA.” At the time, Omidyar Network boasted that its investment in “New Citizen” would help “shape public policy” in Ukraine:


“Using technology and media, New Citizen coordinates the efforts of concerned members of society, reinforcing their ability to shape public policy.

“… With support from Omidyar Network, New Citizen will strengthen its advocacy efforts in order to drive greater transparency and engage citizens on issues of importance to them.”

In March 2012, Rybachuk — the operator behind the 2004 Orange Revolution scenes, the Anatoly Chubais of Ukraine — boasted that he was preparing a new Orange Revolution:


“People are not afraid. We now have 150 NGOs in all the major cities in our ‘clean up Parliament campaign’ to elect and find better parliamentarians….The Orange Revolution was a miracle, a massive peaceful protest that worked. We want to do that again and we think we will.”

Detailed financial records reviewed by Pando (and embedded below) also show Omidyar Network covered costs for the expansion of Rybachuk’s anti-Yanukovych campaign, “Chesno” (“Honestly”), into regional cities including Poltava, Vinnytsia, Zhytomyr, Ternopil, Sumy, and elsewhere, mostly in the Ukrainian-speaking west and center.

* * * *

To understand what it means for Omidyar to fund Oleh Rybachuk, some brief history is necessary. Rybachuk’s background follows a familiar pattern in post-Soviet opportunism: From well-connected KGB intelligence ties, to post-Soviet neoliberal networker.

In the Soviet era, Rybachuk studied in a military languages program half of whose graduates went on to work for the KGB. Rybachuk’s murky overseas posting in India in the late Soviet era further strengthens many suspicions about his Soviet intelligence ties; whatever the case, by Rybachuk’s own account, his close ties to top intelligence figures in the Ukrainian SBU served him well during the Orange Revolution of 2004, when the SBU passed along secret information about vote fraud and assassination plots.

In 1992, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Rybachuk moved to the newly-formed Ukraine Central Bank, heading the foreign relations department under Central Bank chief and future Orange Revolution leader Viktor Yushchenko. In his central bank post, Rybachuk established close friendly ties with western government and financial aid institutions, as well as proto-Omidyar figures like George Soros, who funded many of the NGOs involved in “color revolutions” including small donations to the same Ukraine NGOs that Omidyar backed. (Like Omidyar Network does today, Soros’ charity arms—Open Society and Renaissance Foundation—publicly preached transparency and good government in places like Russia during the Yeltsin years, while Soros’ financial arm speculated on Russian debt and participated in scandal-plagued auctions of state assets.)

In early 2005, Orange Revolution leader Yushchenko became Ukraine’s president, and he appointed Rybachuk deputy prime minister in charge of integrating Ukraine into the EU, NATO, and other western institutions. Rybachuk also pushed for the mass-privatization of Ukraine’s remaining state holdings.

Over the next several years, Rybachuk was shifted around President Yushchenko’s embattled administration, torn by internal divisions. In 2010, Yushchenko lost the presidency to recently-overthrown Viktor Yanukovych, and a year later, Rybachuk was on Omidyar’s and USAID’s payroll, preparing for the next Orange Revolution. As Rybachuk told the Financial Times two years ago:


“We want to do [the Orange Revolution] again and we think we will.”

Some of Omidyar’s funds were specifically earmarked for covering the costs of setting up Rybachuk’s “clean up parliament” NGOs in Ukraine’s regional centers. Shortly after the Euromaidan demonstrations erupted last November, Ukraine’s Interior Ministry opened up a money laundering investigation into Rybachuk’s NGOs, dragging Omidyar’s name into the high-stakes political struggle.

According to a Kyiv Post article on February 10 titled, “Rybachuk: Democracy-promoting nongovernmental organization faces ‘ridiculous’ investigation”:


“Police are investigating Center UA, a public-sector watchdog funded by Western donors, on suspicion of money laundering, the group said. The group’s leader, Oleh Rybachuk, said it appears that authorities, with the probe, are trying to warn other nongovernmental organizations that seek to promote democracy, transparency, free speech and human rights in Ukraine.

“According to Center UA, the Kyiv economic crimes unit of the Interior Ministry started the investigation on Dec. 11. Recently, however, investigators stepped up their efforts, questioning some 200 witnesses.

* * * *

...end of part one

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