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Echoes

Oct 8, 2009
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With regards to Trotskyism, there has never been any betrayal, they've always been what they are now.

They've just stepped from leftism to liberalism. Useful idiots to banksters. And in any case, die-hard anti-Christians.

Trotsky himself was an emanation of the Pdt Wilson's US government (see Sutton's work)

Didn't Paul Gottfried say that 80% of neocons are Trotskyist?
 
python

python

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our 'free and democratic' mass media, of course, is either not reporting at all, or misinforming - as usual - on the latest deescalation in ukraine.

the events imo point to putin again playing his game brilliantly and gradually achieving his aims...

to begin with, it was scary when his troops 2 days ago were ordered to begin exersizes on ukraine's border to only end up by today's official announcement of the supreme council canceling putin's right to use military force.

before that, also yesterday and frankly to my big surprise, the gazprom officially announced that ukraine is fulfilling its transit contracts to europe and NOT stealing russian gas as in previous conflicts despite being cut off since the last monday.

also yesterday, rather quietly, the new ukrainian president's representatives despite swearing to 'exterminate' them, met with the very rebels they call terrorists. they agreed on a seize fire under the russian and obse mediation. this was the real icebreaker.

another silent yet significant change from the previous dead end is that putin and the new uki pres are in regular personal contact. the poroshenko guy even immediately replaced the foreign minister who insulted putin and promissed to consults russia on the eu association progress.

these are all hard facts and events that took place within days of harsh uncompromising rhetoric from the ukrainians...

is vlad feigning a retreat to dodge more sanctions or simply winning :confused:
 
blutto

blutto

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python said:
our 'free and democratic' mass media, of course, is either not reporting at all, or misinforming - as usual - on the latest deescalation in ukraine.

the events imo point to putin again playing his game brilliantly and gradually achieving his aims...

to begin with, it was scary when his troops 2 days ago were ordered to begin exersizes on ukraine's border to only end up by today's official announcement of the supreme council canceling putin's right to use military force.

before that, also yesterday and frankly to my big surprise, the gazprom officially announced that ukraine is fulfilling its transit contracts to europe and NOT stealing russian gas as in previous conflicts despite being cut off since the last monday.

also yesterday, rather quietly, the new ukrainian president's representatives despite swearing to 'exterminate' them, met with the very rebels they call terrorists. they agreed on a seize fire under the russian and obse mediation. this was the real icebreaker.

another silent yet significant change from the previous dead end is that putin and the new uki pres are in regular personal contact. the poroshenko guy even immediately replaced the foreign minister who insulted putin and promissed to consults russia on the eu association progress.

these are all hard facts and events that took place within days of harsh uncompromising rhetoric from the ukrainians...

is vlad feigning a retreat to dodge more sanctions or simply winning :confused:
Click to expand...

....well...this is ,as you pointed, turning out to be a little different scenario with Porky in charge....the thing with Porky is that his assets are to a large extent tied to The Ukraine and he has a vested interest in keeping that country in some semblance of a functioning consuming/producing society...but he is caught between a rock and several hard places ( Russia which has a large existing economic tie to the Ukrainian system, Europe which should be the obvious area into which Ukrainian business could/should most likely expand into, the internal fascist element which is driven by a virulent anti-Russian ideology and frankly couldn't care less about reasonable choices, and last and definitely not least, the US, which most definitely does not give a fig about The Ukraine as their agenda is only to hurt Mother Russia ( and prevent closer ties between Europe and Russia )....

...the Gazprom news seems to indicate Porky realizes he can't put any hurt on Europe but to do that he will have to play ball with Russia...his opening of lines of communication with Putin, and pushing the fascists to the sidelines seems to indicate that there may now be another "adult in the room" alongside Putin and Europe ( whose leaders are still paying lip service to the lunatic neocons but are also listening to their accountants who are probably telling their bosses that the US position is a money losing proposition ) ...

...assuming that Porky continues to slowly push the fascists out he will diminish the one major weapon the neocons have in this situation and he will then be able to make more adult decisions....read, make peace with Russia and work to tie in with Europe, which is more or less the position that Putin proposed before the neocons sent in the snipers...the only problem with that is that the neocons could still call up the fascists and go all Iraq on The Ukraine and remove Porky or diminish his power ....

...all that being said, the situation is still very fluid, and it will be very interesting to see what the next few months bring...the wild card being how stupid can the neocons get...

Cheers
 
python

python

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blutto said:
....well...this is ,as you pointed, turning out to be a little different scenario with Porky in charge....the thing with Porky is that his assets are to a large extent tied to The Ukraine and he has a vested interest in keeping that country in some semblance of a functioning consuming/producing society...but he is caught between a rock and several hard places ( Russia which has a large existing economic tie to the Ukrainian system, Europe which should be the obvious area into which Ukrainian business could/should most likely expand into, the internal fascist element which is driven by a virulent anti-Russian ideology and frankly couldn't care less about reasonable choices, and last and definitely not least, the US, which most definitely does not give a fig about The Ukraine as their agenda is only to hurt Mother Russia ( and prevent closer ties between Europe and Russia )....

...the Gazprom news seems to indicate Porky realizes he can't put any hurt on Europe but to do that he will have to play ball with Russia...his opening of lines of communication with Putin, and pushing the fascists to the sidelines seems to indicate that there may now be another "adult in the room" alongside Putin and Europe ( whose leaders are still paying lip service to the lunatic neocons but are also listening to their accountants who are probably telling their bosses that the US position is a money losing proposition ) ...

...assuming that Porky continues to slowly push the fascists out he will diminish the one major weapon the neocons have in this situation and he will then be able to make more adult decisions....read, make peace with Russia and work to tie in with Europe, which is more or less the position that Putin proposed before the neocons sent in the snipers...the only problem with that is that the neocons could still call up the fascists and go all Iraq on The Ukraine and remove Porky or diminish his power ....

...all that being said, the situation is still very fluid, and it will be very interesting to see what the next few months bring...the wild card being how stupid can the neocons get...

Cheers
Click to expand...
not being on the inside of the decision-makers, it is very difficult to interpret who and why is driving the slight changes in the ukraine's attitude...i do my best trying to stay informed...my best guess is that it is the european union (primarily germany and france), as opposed to united states in the early stages of the crisis, that have now become the primary adviser to the new president.

that said, i have read nothing that would cast poroshenko as a strong, unifying statesman much less the crisis manager. he sure is a successful businessman, a billionaire. as such, particularly in the environment of ruthless post-soviet competition, he must have become a survivor, pragmatic of sorts. just consider his amazing political service record. he managed to hold ministerial positions under both the 'orange revolutionaries' and the 'pro-russia' yanukovich !! he is a chameleon. and this sort of animals, as we all know, cant be trusted.

given poroshenko human nature, the specifics of ukrainian power sharing (parliament above president), the draconian imf credit conditions etc, imo, it is just a matter of time that ukraine may sink into a mess when yanukovich's rule will have seemed golden.

as to russia's role, i do see putin continue playing his own game designed to prevent or limit the eu and american penetration of ukraine anywhere he can. if it takes to keep ukraine in the limbo state, or tearing off another piece, he will unflinchingly go for it. such is his and most russians fear of nato.

imo, the fear is justified.
 
blutto

blutto

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...find below a very surprising development....almost as if adults are starting to influence the decision making process...

"NATO will not offer Georgia membership step, avoiding Russia clash

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - NATO will stop short of approving a formal step to membership for Georgia at its summit in September, officials said on Wednesday, dodging a possible confrontation with Moscow over the alliance's expansion to Russia's neighbours.

NATO members agreed in principle to draw up a "substantive package" of cooperation with Georgia that would help it move closer to NATO, Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters at a meeting of alliance foreign ministers.

But that falls short of an invitation to join NATO's Membership Action Plan (MAP) - a formal step towards membership - that Georgia, which fought a brief war with Russia in 2008, had hoped for.

Putting Georgia on a path to NATO membership would have angered Russia, which is deeply hostile to the Western military alliance advancing into former Soviet republics, and some allies feared it could provoke Russian retaliation."

Read more: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/25/uk-nato-enlargement-idUKKBN0F01G620140625

Cheers
 
blutto

blutto

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....the problem of adults making noise about the Ukrainian situation (and undermining the official US policy ) is spreading and popping up in some very unusual places ( see below )

"The poor US economic outlook has brought America’s two largest business lobbies–the US Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers (or what is left of them) into conflict with the Obama regime’s threat of further sanctions against Russia.

According to Bloomberg News, beginning tomorrow (June 26), the business groups will run advertisements in the New York Times, Wall St Journal, and Washington Post opposing any further sanctions on Russia. The US business organizations say that the sanctions will harm their profits and result in layoffs of American workers.

Thus, America’s two largest business organizations, important sources of political campaign contributions, have finally added their voice to the voices of German, French, and Italian business.

Everyone, except the brainwashed American public, knows that the “crisis in Ukraine” is entirely the work of Washington. European and American businesses are asking: “why should our profits and our workers take hits in behalf of Washington’s propaganda against Russia.”

...and this trend may have repercussions well beyond just The Ukraine...

"Dissent with Washington and Washington’s two-bit puppet rulers in Europe is spreading. The latest poll in Germany reveals that three-quarters of Germany’s population reject permanent NATO bases in Poland and the Baltic states. The former Czechoslovakia, currently Slovakia and the Czech Republic, although NATO members, have rejected NATO and American troops and bases on their territory. Recently, the Polish foreign minister said that pleasing Washington required giving free oral sex for nothing in return.

The strains that Washington’s morons are putting on NATO might break the organization apart. Pray that it does. NATO’s excuse for existence disappeared with the Soviet collapse 23 years ago. Yet, Washington has increased NATO far beyond the borders of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. NATO now runs from the Baltics to Central Asia. In order to have a reason for NATO’s continued expensive operation, Washington has had to construct an enemy out of Russia."

...the above taking from the latest by one of my fave crusty commentators...

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...oid-washingtons-arrogance-paul-craig-roberts/


Cheers
 
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Politics sometimes make dizziness.
g.png
 
blackcat

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blutto said:
....the latest from Robert Parry on The Ukraine.....this time he looks at the reporting of what we often refer to as The Paper of Record, the NY Times, on the continuing crisis...by the end of the article it looks like it should be renamed The Broken Record Paper....

...as usual a great and informative read...

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread...ork-times-revamps-its-false-ukraine-narrative

Cheers
Click to expand...
try to get them to give a transparent appraisal on the palestinians.
 
python

python

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3 innocent israeili teens brutally murdered...the perpetrators are not caught yet, there isn't even any proof they were from hamas, though any sensible observer would have to conclude they were indeed from hamas...

understandably, israel is boiling with rage and their government is officially discussing revenge actions while disingenuously condemning a revenge killing of a palestinian teen by some israeli.

a very tragic situation all around.

i doubt there is even one hundred israelis that fully realize that it is them, their state, their govt are not only a participant in the horrible cycle of violence (to say the least, very disproportionately so) but that they, the israelis, hold a huge mass of defenseless palestinian civilians in one huge concentration camp called gaza.

all western govt, as if it was a well-rehearsed chorus, condemned the killings...i cant recall, but i am open to being corrected, of any western govt officially condemning israel for killing thousands up on thousands of plaesinian teens :(

the hypocrisy is staggering :mad:
 
python

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ToreBear

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I'm just disgusted by the Israeli government and those who voted for them. They don't care about the suffering they are causing. All they care about is that the people they make suffer don't bother them. I wonder how many Jewish Israelis want to stop the crimes of their government? I'm thinking 10%. The rest are either extremists or people who don't care unless their life is disrupted. Then they join the extremists in wanting to make the Palestinians suffer even more.

The Israelis wanted this to happen. They wanted to ruin the Palestinian unity government and keep the Palestinians divided. The 3 settlers killed were used as an excuse to arrest anyone related to Hamas and search and harass the population on the west bank.

The bombing of Gaza I think was started with the view to force the story of the burning alive of the Palestinian teen by Israeli extremists, and the beating of his American cousin by Israeli "police", into the background.

Whether Netanyahu wanted things to go as far as it looks to be going is immaterial. He set out the policy and should have thought about were it could lead.

This might be what pushes the Palestinians into finally joining the ICC. The consequences of that move could make the Israelis wake up, but it might also send them further into their nationalist psychosis with horrible consequences for the Palestinians. I hope the EU can get it's act together and force the Israelis to change before that becomes necessary. The US won't, they have proven that the last 20 years.

By my last count. Over the last two days 89 Palestinians where killed of whom 23 were children. How many have been maimed for life, physically wounded or mentally scarred is unknown. The numbers will be huge. As for Israelis, it's a big fat 0.

I had to get that off my chest. I don't know if I'm sad or angry. Right now I'm more angry.
 
FoxxyBrown1111

FoxxyBrown1111

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python said:
3 innocent israeili teens brutally murdered
Click to expand...

... havn´t followed politics too much lately. But is it true Israel started a full blown war because of 3 kids? :eek:

Seems they are allowed to do all they want since they are portrayed as the all time historic victims.

Watta farce politics is... Too sad innocent people have to die out of this.
 
FoxxyBrown1111

FoxxyBrown1111

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OFC I meant the leaders of that country. You know the McCains and such of Israel. Dangerous people. The same are on the other side too. No doubt about that. The majority of Israels population seem to be very gentle people. But when you have fanatics as leaders, you know... like Reagan in the 1980s, SDI and such... good that he learned from (AFIR the movie "The day after" he once said) that nuclear wars are no good thing. He cooled down and started to talk with Russia.
I think the extremists should try to learn too, even though it´s hard for grumpy old men to change POVs. Sad thing for the innocent on both sides...
 
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