World Politics

[rhubroma]

I have an honest question for those who have universal health care...how does the system handle citizens who smoke, are alcoholics, or engage in other unhealthy activities? Are they treated like everyone else?

Thank you.

Nada. Of course information is diseminated.

There is nothing more cynical and ruthless, than that inhumane and self-centered conservative opinion that "millions want healthcare but don't want to pay for it..."

Everything for them boils down to a checks and balances sheet and the only thing they are concerned with is how their money is spent. It must be hard living with all that anxiety, obsession and fear. And how many other worthwhile things they miss out on, by having such cares lacerate the mind.

 

[TRDean]

Nada. Of course information is diseminated.

There is nothing more cynical and ruthless, than that inhumane and self-centered conservative opinion that "millions want healthcare but don't want to pay for it..."

Everything for them boils down to a checks and balances sheet and the only thing they are concerned with is how their money is spent. It must be hard living with all that anxiety, obsession and fear. And how many other worthwhile things they miss out on, by having such cares lacerate the mind.

Thanks I think...I wasn't really asking from a conservative or liberal standpoint...just curious is all.

 

[buckwheat]

As for your barbs, you are much better at insult than you are argument...and you aren't that great at either.

And you're the arbiter of these things?

Your paternalism arguments are conservative arguments. You're more like the "white moderates" that MLK had particular disdain for.

One of Johnson's aides Joseph A. Califano, Jr. has countered that "from 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent, the most dramatic decline over such a brief period in this century."

As for your black students who buy into conservative bs, they wouldn't be here if they weren't eating. They're well on their way to being the next Clarence Thomas, Michael Steele, and Thomas Sowell.

If you were aware of it and had less of the self made man attitude, you might have told them what Stephen Biko said; "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."


Evidently you helped facilitate the the bs of the conservative critics of the Great Society. Programs that Nixon and Ford greatly expanded before Reagan cut them. Then Reagan proceeded to run up huge deficits. Next, in your moderate wisdom, you'll be telling us how Reagan made us proud to be Americans again. Save it.


Congratulations again. You've reduced the state of the black community in the U.S. down to the paternalism of U.S. government in enacting the Great Society.

No other factors; Brilliant!

Never mind a couple hundred years of slavery, violent oppression, second class citizen status. It was the money given to the poor to help them make ends meet. Got it. Thanks!

 

[scribe]

I have an honest question for those who have universal health care...how does the system handle citizens who smoke, are alcoholics, or engage in other unhealthy activities? Are they treated like everyone else?

Thank you.

They should be marked in the same way nazi's tried to do, that way the real people of virtue can avoid wasting resources on them.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I don't know what the details were of the trust situation with the kids. I talked to the trust attorney after the sale of the business and she wouldn't say much except that the IRS was difficult to deal with, or something to that effect.

I think part of the problem was the kids were extremely frustrated at the difference of business valuations. They didn't have much nice to say about the IRS or two regional banks they did business with. The bottom line with this was the kids accepted about $4,000,000 for an estate that was valued much higher. I readily admit I don't know every detail of this case as I was not involved with the legal part (among other things). But the kids are convinced the IRS essentially forced this to happen.

It doesn't sound like she did a very good job for them, if what they really wanted was to hang on to the business.

 

[Anonymous]

And you're the arbiter of these things?

Your paternalism arguments are conservative arguments. You're more like the "white moderates" that MLK had particular disdain for.

One of Johnson's aides Joseph A. Califano, Jr. has countered that "from 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent, the most dramatic decline over such a brief period in this century."

As for your black students who buy into conservative bs, they wouldn't be here if they weren't eating. They're well on their way to being the next Clarence Thomas, Michael Steele, and Thomas Sowell.

If you were aware of it and had less of the self made man attitude, you might have told them what Stephen Biko said; "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."


Evidently you helped facilitate the the bs of the conservative critics of the Great Society. Programs that Nixon and Ford greatly expanded before Reagan cut them. Then Reagan proceeded to run up huge deficits. Next, in your moderate wisdom, you'll be telling us how Reagan made us proud to be Americans again. Save it.


Congratulations again. You've reduced the state of the black community in the U.S. down to the paternalism of U.S. government in enacting the Great Society.

No other factors; Brilliant!

Never mind a couple hundred years of slavery, violent oppression, second class citizen status. It was the money given to the poor to help them make ends meet. Got it. Thanks!

Funny, those black students of mine...they all said that they would vote Democratic Party. It was the survey questions, completely non partisan (I am an independent who leans left), and the questions were as unbiased as any I have ever seen. It always turned out as a surprise to them as to just how conservative their opinions were. Strike!

And again, you can try to read into what I said, and make ignorant statements because they make you feel good about your points, but you are way off. Anyway, you aren't here to discuss, you like to make points. It is called political hackery, and myopic Democrats like you are just as bad as myopic Republicans. You only think jersey, not realism. Keep up the bad work.

 

[usedtobefast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoWEoxwtFBM

 

[buckwheat]

Funny, those black students of mine...they all said that they would vote Democratic Party.

Regardless of how they would vote, those are conservative talking points. They've evidently bought into Reagan's bs, as you apparently have as well.

The Great Society was a failure in the same sense as the current stimulus plan was. A group of politicians labeled it so. Funny how you're not seeing the point that the plight of blacks could have been much worse had they not gotten that aid.

It was the survey questions, completely non partisan.

says you.

(I am an independent who leans left)

An independent? I have a lot more respect for people who can actually make up their minds on very clear issues.

and the questions were as unbiased as any I have ever seen. It always turned out as a surprise to them as to just how conservative their opinions were. Strike!

Honestly, I don't trust your judgement as to what unbiased is.

And again, you can try to read into what I said, and make ignorant statements because they make you feel good about your points, but you are way off.!

Damn, talk about reading into something! I feel good about my points?
Actually, I feel horrendous about them. The fact that there is still a debate about this crap is incredible. You chalk up the whole perceived (by you) failure of the Great Society to "Paternalism," yet in the same breath you recognize that racism was so institutionalized and pervasive that even the POTUS who came out on the side of blacks was a racist. Talk about a group of people having the deck stacked against them. Then you gild the lily by implying that it's not racism that hurt the blacks, it's the fact that they got help. Nice!

Just because some of your students got sucked into this whole "power of positive thinking" rah rah, crap, doesn't mean that they were not in fact helped by the aid they did get. That doesn't mean to say they wouldn't have benefited even more if society had been more just with opportunities.

Anyway, you aren't here to discuss, you like to make points.

More reading into things? Making points tied to reality btw, is part of discussing things. I'm so glad you're above things that you can "discuss" events which have no applicability or consequence to your current situation.

It is called political hackery,

Actually it's called having convictions, something you as a fence sitter wouldn't know much about.

and myopic Democrats like you are just as bad as myopic Republicans.

You're teaching this kind of "philosophy." Get a job in the real world outside of school, where the rubber meets the road with policy.

Myopic? That I actually give a damn that people aren't effed over out in the real working world. You know, stuff like having their jobs threatened every day, and having OSHA spouting out right wing talking points about personal responsibility during the GWB Admininstration. Stuff you may talk about in the classroom has a real world effect on real people.

You only think jersey,

For a guy that complains about me "reading into" his posts you're doing a helluva job Brownie!

BTW, I'm disgusted with the Democrats. At least the Republicans are completely out in the open with their moral and ethical corruption. The Democrats are almost as corrupt and they're trying to have it both ways when they talk little guy/underdog and walk corporate.

not realism. Keep up the bad work.

You're "paternalism," Ronald Reagan, "welfare queen" bs is realism?

Your students being convinced of this idiotic paternalism argument shows just how perverse this country has become. The stigma attached to "Welfare" is widely understood even though that very word embodies an admonition in the Constitution. One almost has to admire how Republicans have perverted the language. People have taken advantage of the fact that blacks don't want to see themselves as victims. One is made to feel inferior because they accepted help which was desperately needed.

As to the bad work, please keep your psychobabble theories away from malleable minds.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't know what the details were of the trust situation with the kids. I talked to the trust attorney after the sale of the business and she wouldn't say much except that the IRS was difficult to deal with, or something to that effect.

I think part of the problem was the kids were extremely frustrated at the difference of business valuations. They didn't have much nice to say about the IRS or two regional banks they did business with. The bottom line with this was the kids accepted about $4,000,000 for an estate that was valued much higher. I readily admit I don't know every detail of this case as I was not involved with the legal part (among other things). But the kids are convinced the IRS essentially forced this to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of the estate tax. However I think that somebody is not telling you the entire story.

The valuation put on the business by the banks and the IRS are meaningless as they sold the business. This is the valuation that the IRS would assigned the asset. Also given that the exemption was $2 million this would likely have been around 2006 or 2007....not a bad year to sell a business.

 

[Anonymous]

Regardless of how they would vote, those are conservative talking points. They've evidently bought into Reagan's bs, as you apparently have as well.

The Great Society was a failure in the same sense as the current stimulus plan was. A group of politicians labeled it so. Funny how you're not seeing the point that the plight of blacks could have been much worse had they not gotten that aid.



says you.



An independent? I have a lot more respect for people who can actually make up their minds on very clear issues.



Honestly, I don't trust your judgement as to what unbiased is.




Damn, talk about reading into something! I feel good about my points?
Actually, I feel horrendous about them. The fact that there is still a debate about this crap is incredible. You chalk up the whole perceived (by you) failure of the Great Society to "Paternalism," yet in the same breath you recognize that racism was so institutionalized and pervasive that even the POTUS who came out on the side of blacks was a racist. Talk about a group of people having the deck stacked against them. Then you gild the lily by implying that it's not racism that hurt the blacks, it's the fact that they got help. Nice!

Just because some of your students got sucked into this whole "power of positive thinking" rah rah, crap, doesn't mean that they were not in fact helped by the aid they did get. That doesn't mean to say they wouldn't have benefited even more if society had been more just with opportunities.




More reading into things? Making points tied to reality btw, is part of discussing things. I'm so glad you're above things that you can "discuss" events which have no applicability or consequence to your current situation.




Actually it's called having convictions, something you as a fence sitter wouldn't know much about.



You're teaching this kind of "philosophy." Get a job in the real world outside of school, where the rubber meets the road with policy.

Myopic? That I actually give a damn that people aren't effed over out in the real working world. You know, stuff like having their jobs threatened every day, and having OSHA spouting out right wing talking points about personal responsibility during the GWB Admininstration. Stuff you may talk about in the classroom has a real world effect on real people.



For a guy that complains about me "reading into" his posts you're doing a helluva job Brownie!

BTW, I'm disgusted with the Democrats. At least the Republicans are completely out in the open with their moral and ethical corruption. The Democrats are almost as corrupt and they're trying to have it both ways when they talk little guy/underdog and walk corporate.





You're "paternalism," Ronald Reagan, "welfare queen" bs is realism?

Your students being convinced of this idiotic paternalism argument shows just how perverse this country has become. The stigma attached to "Welfare" is widely understood even though that very word embodies an admonition in the Constitution. One almost has to admire how Republicans have perverted the language. People have taken advantage of the fact that blacks don't want to see themselves as victims. One is made to feel inferior because they accepted help which was desperately needed.

As to the bad work, please keep your psychobabble theories away from malleable minds.

How old are you? You don't have to answer, it is readily apparent.

Oh, and Amazing Kerskin, I have a job in the real world now. It has been years since I taught. Kids like you who are wet behind the ears often jump into erroneous assumptions. Again, hack away jersey boy.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I have an honest question for those who have universal health care...how does the system handle citizens who smoke, are alcoholics, or engage in other unhealthy activities? Are they treated like everyone else?

Thank you.

Actually - they are treated far more often than everyone else

 

[CentralCaliBike]

You mean activities like riding a 17 pound bike next to 2 ton cars while wearing colored nylon clothes and a hunk of styrofoam on your head ? The doctors don't say anything. Just like in the US when you come in 100 pounds over weight,as long as you have insurance the course of treatment is based on when your insurance runs out not when you get healthy. My doctor in Belgium used to examine my injured leg in his driveway,give me tubes of ointment with my cookies and takeaway Extran water bottle...free

Just some headlines I saw this week about the British Health System:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7039285.ece

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...eal-lessons-of-this-nhs-disaster-1909596.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...HS-hospital-routinely-neglected-patients.html

 

[buckwheat]

How old are you? You don't have to answer, it is readily apparent.

ehhh. Whatever age I am or you are for that matter, is irrelevant. What is relevant is keeping in touch with the human condition, you know, stuff like eating, and not dying of some easily curable disease. Keep it up with your "Paternalism" bs and you'll assure us liberals you're out of touch. It'll be a big hit with the tea baggers tho.

Oh, and Amazing Kerskin, I have a job in the real world now. It has been years since I taught. Kids like you who are wet behind the ears often jump into erroneous assumptions. Again, hack away jersey boy.

Assumptions? You mean like the instances of you delving into my thought processes?

Anyway, I'm no kid. The thing is, I can make a decision, especially on stuff that we've known in this country at least since Thomas Paine and definitely known beyond a shadow of a doubt since FDR. You keep on "discussing" things.

 

[Anonymous]

ehhh. Whatever age I am or you are for that matter, is irrelevant. What is relevant is keeping in touch with the human condition, you know, stuff like eating, and not dying of some easily curable disease. Keep it up with your "Paternalism" bs and you'll assure us liberals you're out of touch. It'll be a big hit with the tea baggers tho.



Assumptions? You mean like the instances of you delving into my thought processes?

Anyway, I'm no kid. The thing is, I can make a decision, especially on stuff that we've known in this country at least since Thomas Paine and definitely known beyond a shadow of a doubt since FDR. You keep on "discussing" things.

And you keep thinking you are right, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. It's what children do best.

The funniest part is that I don't disagree with social programs, just blanket ones enacted because of white guilt that did nothing to improve the economic realities of the entire community it sought to help. I have been one of the people here defending the programs of FDR. What he did and what LBJ did are two completely different things, and you don't seem smart enough to know the difference.

 

[buckwheat]

And you keep thinking you are right,.

You completely missed the point and that is coming from your assumptions about me. I'm open to being wrong with anything. The fact is that this paternalism argument is a condescending insult and the fact that some of your students don't have the perspective to see the argument is wrong doesn't let you off the hook for promoting silliness.

and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Oh, I probably agree with you a large majority of the time but this is something you should really reconsider because it's a horrendous opinion on your part. Actually I often ask for counsel as it's entirely possible I'm way off on something. Not on this though.

It's what children do best.

Honestly, there's nothing you could say about me personally that would bother me all that much. I've put myself through the wringer.

The funniest part is that I don't disagree with social programs, just blanket ones enacted because of white guilt.

White guilt? That's a helluva assumption.

that did nothing to improve the economic realities of the entire community it sought to help..

Nothing? That's an awfully absolute statement. The Jobs Corps was a part of the Great Society, No?

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/30/b...lready-said-job-corps-works.html?pagewanted=1

WHEN the Job Corps, an original antipoverty program from Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, was on the ropes and facing deep budget cuts in the mid-1990's, George Foreman came to its defense. ''Job Corps took me from the mean streets and out of a nightmare lifestyle into a mode where the most incredible of dreams came true,'' Mr. Foreman, the two-time heavyweight boxing champion, said.

I have been one of the people here defending the programs of FDR. What he did and what LBJ did are two completely different things, and you don't seem smart enough to know the difference.

I'm not smart enough? You know, I have plenty of ammo that I can really blast you with on this issue, but I don't have the time now.

It's kind of sad that your pride is getting in the way of seeing things clearly and that you have bought into Republican talking points that amount to them catering to their base on how they all pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

[Anonymous]

You completely missed the point and that is coming from your assumptions about me. I'm open to being wrong with anything. The fact is that this paternalism argument is a condescending insult and the fact that some of your students don't have the perspective to see the argument is wrong doesn't let you off the hook for promoting silliness.




Oh, I probably agree with you a large majority of the time but this is something you should really reconsider because it's a horrendous opinion on your part. Actually I often ask for counsel as it's entirely possible I'm way off on something. Not on this though.




Honestly, there's nothing you could say about me personally that would bother me all that much. I've put myself through the wringer.



White guilt? That's a helluva assumption.



Nothing? That's an awfully absolute statement. The Jobs Corps was a part of the Great Society, No?

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/30/b...lready-said-job-corps-works.html?pagewanted=1

WHEN the Job Corps, an original antipoverty program from Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, was on the ropes and facing deep budget cuts in the mid-1990's, George Foreman came to its defense. ''Job Corps took me from the mean streets and out of a nightmare lifestyle into a mode where the most incredible of dreams came true,'' Mr. Foreman, the two-time heavyweight boxing champion, said.



I'm not smart enough? You know, I have plenty of ammo that I can really blast you with on this issue, but I don't have the time now.

It's kind of sad that your pride is getting in the way of seeing things clearly and that you have bought into Republican talking points that amount to them catering to their base on how they all pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

Here is the funny thing Jr. I came to that conclusion all by myself back in 1989 while studying Political Science (my first degree), and the initial idea came from a screaming liberal professor who didn't buy into the stated motivations of LBJ either. The sociological implications of that idea are not some real stretch, and they aren't some Republican talking point. This idea has been around for awhile, and bears itself out if you are willing to read something that challenges your firmly held current beliefs. It has nothing to do with believing that the playing field is even, and that poverty is based on laziness. Unfortunately, you are tied to your Democratic talking points so much, that you have not bothered to read what I am actually saying. You take only my criticism of LBJ as the basis for pontificating about my overall view of governmental policy in regards to the poor. Sorry to say, but you are still way off, and it doesn't appear you want to engage me in a real way. You started the critical barb throwing here, not me. I didn't respond to your initial post, you responded to mine. And from that point you have proceeded with a myopic belief about what my thoughts are regarding a much broader spectrum of policy. That's fine because I am not overly interested in the party line you spout anyway. If I want to hear that, I will just watch TV.

 

[buckwheat]

Here is the funny thing Jr. I came to that conclusion all by myself back in 1989 while studying Political Science (my first degree), and the initial idea came from a screaming liberal professor who didn't buy into the stated motivations of LBJ either. The sociological implications of that idea are not some real stretch, and they aren't some Republican talking point. This idea has been around for awhile, and bears itself out if you are willing to read something that challenges your firmly held current beliefs.

Well serve it up. I'm all ears as H. Ross Perot liked to say.

It has nothing to do with believing that the playing field is even, and that poverty is based on laziness. Unfortunately, you are tied to your Democratic talking points so much, that you have not bothered to read what I am actually saying. You take only my criticism of LBJ as the basis for pontificating about my overall view of governmental policy in regards to the poor. Sorry to say, but you are still way off, and it doesn't appear you want to engage me in a real way. You started the critical barb throwing here, not me. I didn't respond to your initial post, you responded to mine. And from that point you have proceeded with a myopic belief about what my thoughts are regarding a much broader spectrum of policy. That's fine because I am not overly interested in the party line you spout anyway. If I want to hear that, I will just watch TV.

I think when you start entering the territory that giving people money to help them survive after their ethnic group has been effed over for hundreds of years, and this is the reason their community is lagging behind a couple of decades later; this is very shaky ground to be standing on to put it extremely mildly.

Here is the funny thing Jr. I came to that conclusion all by myself back in 1991 while studying Political Science (my first degree), and the initial idea came from a screaming liberal professor who didn't buy into the stated motivations of LBJ either..

You don't like people to assume things about you, but you seem all wrapped up into delving into motivations whether their mine or LBJ's. The fact is that LBJ took a chance and did something that had an enormous impact on our society, whether it was positive or negative. (And I do think that the people who think the impact was negative have a warped perspective) Politically he realized he was giving the South to the Republicans for generations and he was certainly right about that.

Wish you had more time to show me the humility you now seem to pretend you have.

Damn, I can't win here. I have a very thick skin and have gotten that through experience and getting my a$$ kicked.

And if you think you can blast me on my intellect, feel free. I love that kind of challenge. .

It's not about intellect at all. Not that I believe common sense is all that common, but I think your thinking has been unhinged by "theories" here.

The whole issue is more about perspective, empathy, charity, and pride or lack thereof. The pride I once had was beaten out of me.

BTW, I think I'm older that you if you've had a normal chronological progression thru school.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Bla Bla Bla

Bla Bla Bla Bla

I usually agree with most of what both you guys post, so I'm a little suprised that you two have been able to go on this long practically coming to blows over nuances rather than actual differences in policy. Oh well it's kind of entertaining........continue if you must, but save the invective for the ones that deserve it.....like ravens and Scott and Calibike.

 

[scribe]

any thoughts on who won the healthcare summit?

Republicans think it should start over with a blank piece of paper. I'd bet they'll try to run for election in their districts with blank documents as well. Some of their idoit constituents will eat that up.

 

[Anonymous]

I usually agree with most of what both you guys post, so I'm a little suprised that you two have been able to go on this long practically coming to blows over nuances rather than actual differences in policy. Oh well it's kind of entertaining........continue if you must, but save the invective for the ones that deserve it.....like ravens and Scott and Calibike.

I always thought we agreed on most things too, but it seems that the validity of the paternalistic philosophy that, in my opinion, influenced the creation of the welfare programs in the mid 1960 so offends buck, that he came out swinging. I guess unless you tow the party line, you are just as bad as Reagan in his world.

I will let it go however, as you are right...per usual.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

Just some headlines I saw this week about the British Health System:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7039285.ece

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...eal-lessons-of-this-nhs-disaster-1909596.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...HS-hospital-routinely-neglected-patients.html

The UK health funding is inadequate, about 1/3 the spending of the US system, and gutted by Thatcher no less, yet they prefer their dysfunctional and crumbling health-care to the US system.

Conservative politicians here in NZ are trying to privatise the public health system too. Why? So they can flog national assets to their mates and make profit off of the suffering.

The admin costs of the US system are about 10x as great as public systems, yet market fundies like to tell us how efficient markets are. Conservatives are the same no matter the country, it seems.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I usually agree with most of what both you guys post, so I'm a little suprised that you two have been able to go on this long practically coming to blows over nuances rather than actual differences in policy. Oh well it's kind of entertaining........continue if you must, but save the invective for the ones that deserve it.....like ravens and Scott and Calibike.

Been too busy lately to post anything controversial, so perhaps TFF and Buckwheat are just honing their skills.

With the implosion of the science behind the climate change scare, I think I will start taking some shots at our various health care proposals.

To start, given that Anthem Blue Cross is looking to raise rates almost 40% seems like a deliberate attempt to sway public opinion.

 

[scribe]

With the implosion of the science behind the climate change scare....

Maybe you should start planning your victory celebration with members of the flat earth society. You guys could make for a very powerful coalition.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Maybe you should start planning your victory celebration with members of the flat earth society. You guys could make for a very powerful coalition.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

Not much time for reading lately but it seems that the experts are retreating faster than they claimed the glaciers are.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You don't really think glaciers aren't retreating, do you?