World Politics

[Anonymous]

Oh, for goodness sakes. You've never been in an industrial environment?

There are standard practices that are followed to a T. These are widely known. When they are not followed, accidents happen, people die, or are severely injured, and environments are damaged.

These things are known from experience and that is why standards are set.

Do you have any idea what "case studies" are? The Challenger Commission is an example of one. It's a text book case of known standards not being followed with foreseeable results. It's not like I'm doing original thinking here. This was a panel of experts and beaureaucrats and the problems they uncovered weren't all that technical or obsure.




So you too along with Scott, are arrogant enough to do regulation on the fly. It's amazing that you're inserting your own personal opinion into these matters. I've relied on what the experts have said regarding matters such as the Challenger. Why don't you familiarize yourself with real life events.




But I'm siding with experts. You're siding with your own uninformed opinion.



Invariably it's money. Which of the hundreds of violations the Mine was cited with would you call unimportant?






Good grief! But after careful consideration, when regulations are then enacted and enforced, don't you think there is usually a good reason for those regs, or they're just a nuisance to the companies?



Hopeless! You do realize that there are precise DOT rules that are enforced saying how many hours a driver can drive in a week and how many hours of rest are required between shifts. The FAA regulates Pilots the same way. These are real issues in the real world and there are penalties for violating them. You don't think there is pressure from management to violate these regs or to overload trucks. Do you realize there are very specific rules regarding loading of trucks and planes. That's because very predictable accidents have occurred when these regs are ignored. You know you just can't put an unlimited amount of dry ice on a plane, and that all dangerous goods have to be identified to very stringent standards. Do you know why?


Because large jets have crashed due to undeclared dangerous goods or improperly loaded or labled materials.




Infinite? More hysterics!

Need? No, the textbook case of downplaying known risks was what occurred with the Challenger and that was brought up by ChrisE.. Not me. He went and proved exactly what I'm saying.

It's not my rationale! It's the rationale of people in industries who know a lot better than people like you or Scott that want to save money even in light of known and forseeable risks.

Hey sweetie, it is obvious that you believe your experience means you also read minds, but I have been in regulated industry also. So you can quit patting yourself on the back for your expertise. You merely sound like a blowhard.

You do not seem to understand that I am no trying to counter what you are saying about foreseeable weaknesses that are of importance for the safety of everyone. I don't believe that we have enough regulation, or that business' perception of the level of risk for which regulation is necessary is sufficient or based on anything but profitability. I also don't believe people like you have any acceptance of the probability of risk. You continue to bring up instances of disaster and suggest that everywhere there are regulations that are not being enacted that will cause business to be able to function and provide services regardless of the economic cost. It appears you know something about regulation, and absolutely nothing about economics.

Example, my brother paints cars. He is really good. He has painted cars for over 25 years. The Federal government has decided that he has to go take classes now to ensure he is aware of the risks associated with his industry. It is costing him money to do so. He could tell delineate the risks associated with his business as well as anyone in the industry, but that doesn't matter. He has to spend his money to go be told how to do what he already knows how to do. His profit margin just shifted for no reason.

Now, is that the same as regulation for BP or the Space Shuttle program? Not even close, but I would venture to say that there are hundreds or thousands of regulations for each and every industry that are just as useless. When you compile those with the regulations that do affect actual safety, you do have a significant burden on profit. Not all of the fight against regulation is in regards to life threatening situations, but all of it affects profitability, and it is your suggestion that somehow business or anyone will sit back and not question it and fight against it? That is just stupid. Of course they will fight it. Why wouldn't they? You can ascribe the quality of "evil" to it if you want, but just as I find with many people such as yourself, you fail to recognize the complexity of human interaction in any arena because then the world isn't actually black and white like you need it to be.

Go ahead and ascribe any trait to me you want, but I would suggest this: If everyone else who you deal with is an a$$hole, maybe your finger is pointing in the wrong direction. The probability is not in your favor on that one.

 

[Anonymous]

Scott sit down, if you are not already. What I am about to tell you may send your entire world into a tailspin. Those books that Ayn Rand wrote were fiction. The altruistic Corporate owner inventor does not really exist in this world, and if he did the shareholders would vote him out in no time.
The highlighted sentence above is what government is suppose to be, an organ for protecting and serving all the citizens, regulating commerce and insuring the health and wellbeing of all its citizens as well. Government is people. Well right now it is more corporation, but the point is it should be people.

Cute.

Not every business is public. Many millions of business's are small and provide goods and services and are good members of their communities. Like yours.

What happened to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Govt is people and Corporations are... people. Shocking.

 

[Anonymous]

Not sure what you are driving at. I'm as likely to avoid purchasing something from GM as well as Wal-Mart but for different reasons. I tend to support local business when I can because I am one. The cost of goods and services is rarely the number one factor in my purchasing habits, but I tend to gravitate towards convenience.

Did that answer your question?

My point is that for the general populace who bemoans governmental influence and intrusion, a significant examination of their purchasing decisions and a subsequent action on their part to avoid products and services that run counter to their ideals would yield greater results with the market system than continuing to rail against government or seeking to enact policies that are reactionary. But it is much easier to blame the gubment for everything.

 

[Anonymous]

Cute.

Not every business is public. Many millions of business's are small and provide goods and services and are good members of their communities. Like yours.

What happened to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Govt is people and Corporations are... people. Shocking.

Nothing, it still exists. Only people who cannot see past their tax bill don't see that. Funny, all of this government intrusion to your business, yet you were able to take a wonderful trip to Europe this spring. Seems you are doing okay in terms of life, and pursuit as far as I can see. As for Liberty, point to where your liberty has eroded over the past year and a half to the point of having to deal with tyranny.

 

[Anonymous]

There are standard practices that are followed to a T. These are widely known. When they are not followed, accidents happen, people die, or are severely injured, and environments are damaged.

Well folks, there its is. It took a while to get there, but we are there now. Problem solved. All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

 

[buckwheat]

Absolutist piffle.

Hey sweetie, it is obvious that you believe your experience means you also read minds, but I have been in regulated industry also. So you can quit patting yourself on the back for your expertise. You merely sound like a blowhard..

Bro, I'm just quoting here and quoting recognized sources. You're quoting yourself. Who's the blowhard? Congrats.

You do not seem to understand that I am no trying to counter what you are saying about foreseeable weaknesses that are of importance for the safety of everyone...

Then why are you arguing with me inserting personal opinions to counter my facts?

This is similiar to your ridiculous argument regarding how the Great society was a failure I believe.

I don't believe that we have enough regulation, or that business' perception of the level of risk for which regulation is necessary is sufficient or based on anything but profitability....

It doesn't stop your pedantic self important arguments against me though.

I also don't believe people like you have any acceptance of the probability of risk.....

Talk about reading minds and creating unfounded assumptions.

Really? You don't think people with extreme productivity demands accept the probability of risk if that means what I think you mean?

You're unaware that Domino's pizza had their 30 min delivery guarantee regulated out of existence. How is Domino's that different from any other transportation company? I'll tell you how, their political lobbying people weren't as good.

You don't think the Domino's drivers were personally held liable by both management and law enforcement agencies?

So, a situation where 1) you may be fired by management for not acceding to their demands, or 2) you may be personally fined thousands of dollars by the FAA for going along with the wishes of management on the same issue, doesn't meet this criteria?

You continue to bring up instances of disaster and suggest that everywhere there are regulations that are not being enacted that will cause business to be able to function and provide services regardless of the economic cost. ....

I have brought up instances of disaster and what's caused them. The rest of the statement is your overactive mind at work creating assumptions.

It appears you know something about regulation, and absolutely nothing about economics.

Bro, what's your professional background? Mine is extremely varied with some aspects I don't get into. I do have an Accounting background though with a B.S. in that subject. Do you know why Arthur Andersen failed. I'll give you a hint and btw, it was a foreseeable occurrance. The reason is so basic that I'm sure you'll overlook it and it violates very bedrock accounting standards.

Example, my brother paints cars. He is really good. He has painted cars for over 25 years. The Federal government has decided that he has to go take classes now to ensure he is aware of the risks associated with his industry. It is costing him money to do so. He could tell delineate the risks associated with his business as well as anyone in the industry, but that doesn't matter. He has to spend his money to go be told how to do what he already knows how to do. His profit margin just shifted for no reason..

No reason? More absolutist nonsense. How much did his profit margin shift? How long are the classes?

Now, is that the same as regulation for BP or the Space Shuttle program? ..

Didn't BP just occur? Isn't that what we're talking about? Did I bring up the Space Shuttle? Uh no, I just pointed out the obvious (which isn't so obvious to some of you) that the Challenger proves exactly what I'm saying about major disasters such as BP.

Not even close, but I would venture to say that there are hundreds or thousands of regulations for each and every industry that are just as useless...

Really, name some. I was very specific about common sense regs that are necessary in my industry and which there is routinely pressure from the corporate structure to violate. Why don't you carry the Repug banner with Scott?

When you compile those with the regulations that do affect actual safety, you do have a significant burden on profit. ...

Useless regs that have a significant burden on profit. Name some.

Not all of the fight against regulation is in regards to life threatening situations, ...

Yes but we were (at least I was)talking about regulation regarding life threatening situations.

but all of it affects profitability, and it is your suggestion that somehow business or anyone will sit back and not question it and fight against it?...

More mind reading? Show me where I supported useless regulation.

That is just stupid.

What's stupid is your arguments against strawmen in your imaginary world.

Of course they will fight it. Why wouldn't they? You can ascribe the quality of "evil" to it if you want,

I ascribed the quality of evil to companies that fight useless regulation? Show me where I did this. I believe I was talking primarily about the well known (not by you apparently) facts of the Challenger disaster, and my personal experience in an industry where accidents often result in death and serious injury.

but just as I find with many people such as yourself, you fail to recognize the complexity of human interaction in any arena because then the world isn't actually black and white like you need it to be.,

Bro, listen, the Challenger event was extremely well documented and the conclusions were what I said they were.

With regards to safety many of the regulations are black and white because experts who know better (unlike yourself) want exact guidelines to be followed to avert disasters.

They don't want some moron thinking that he can make personal judgements about how much dry ice can be on an airplane.

You ever fly in the cockpit of a large jet? The pilots have very specific protocols of exactly what they must do.


Take a guess why.

Go ahead and ascribe any trait to me you want,.

You're the one ascribing traits to people. I'm talking specifically about very specific incidents.

but I would suggest this: If everyone else who you deal with is an a$$hole, maybe your finger is pointing in the wrong direction. The probability is not in your favor on that one.

Everyone? Again, we were talking very specifically about very specific industries and practices.

Your risk assessment skills are horrendous by the way and that's just illustrated by you and your cronies use of all inclusive, absolute terms, like everyone.

I'll try to keep my statements to short sentences so you can follow.

 

[buckwheat]

Well folks, there its is. It took a while to get there, but we are there now. Problem solved. All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

There you have it, the simplest human alive.

Did you swim to Europe?

Hopefully the Pilot or the Captain of the ship was following regs to a T.

Perhaps you'd rather have them just wing it.

You can't help yourself with your absolutist bs, the stuff of a 3 year old.

All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

Priceless!

 

[Anonymous]

My point is that for the general populace who bemoans governmental influence and intrusion, a significant examination of their purchasing decisions and a subsequent action on their part to avoid products and services that run counter to their ideals would yield greater results with the market system than continuing to rail against government or seeking to enact policies that are reactionary. But it is much easier to blame the gubment for everything.

I don't blame govt as much as I blame those who consistently believe govt to be the best or only answer.

 

[Anonymous]

Nothing, it still exists. Only people who cannot see past their tax bill don't see that. Funny, all of this government intrusion to your business, yet you were able to take a wonderful trip to Europe this spring. Seems you are doing okay in terms of life, and pursuit as far as I can see. As for Liberty, point to where your liberty has eroded over the past year and a half to the point of having to deal with tyranny.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. What HJ wrote is "what government is suppose to be, an organ for protecting and serving all the citizens, regulating commerce and insuring the health and wellbeing of all its citizens as well". To me, these are different. Maybe HJ meant them to be interchangeable that's why I was asking.

 

[buckwheat]

I don't blame govt as much as I blame those who consistently believe govt to be the best or only answer.

Welcome to the forum Sarah Palin!

Who are you blaming for the oil spill?

 

[Anonymous]

There you have it, the simplest human alive.

Did you swim to Europe?

Hopefully the Pilot or the Captain of the ship was following regs to a T.

Perhaps you'd rather have them just wing it.

You can't help yourself with your absolutist bs, the stuff of a 3 year old.

All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

Priceless!

I was using your exact words. Here, I'll put them up again;

Originally Posted by buckwheat
There are standard practices that are followed to a T. These are widely known. When they are not followed, accidents happen, people die, or are severely injured, and environments are damaged.

I'm reading this to also say if standard practices are followed there will be no accidents (people dying, injured and enviro damage).


Absolutist BS? You wrote that, not me.

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forum Sarah Palin!

Who are you blaming for the oil spill?

BP's blaming it on equipment failure.

Do we know if BP was violating regulatory laws in this case?

 

[buckwheat]

BP's blaming it on equipment failure.

Of course they are. The equipment doesn't have feelings or responsibility.

Do we know if BP was violating regulatory laws in this case?

With the secret energy meetings of the previous administration between the Cheney's, James Watts, and Rockefellers of the world, and the current Repug stonewalling, I'm sure those regs are pretty lax at this point in time.

I'm not aware that any Federal investigations have taken place in the unfolding disaster either though.

A lesson the right wing has thoroughly learned is that it takes a long time for the truth to catch up with a lie. When the lies are incessant, it's often a disasterous situation.

Hey, btw, thanks for letting us know that BP has stepped up to the plate.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course they are. The equipment doesn't have feelings or responsibility.



With the secret energy meetings of the previous administration between the Cheney's, James Watts, and Rockefellers of the world, and the current Repug stonewalling, I'm sure those regs are pretty lax at this point in time.

I'm not aware that any Federal investigations have taken place in the unfolding disaster either though.

A lesson the right wing has thoroughly learned is that it takes a long time for the truth to catch up with a lie. When the lies are incessant, it's often a disasterous situation.

Hey, btw, thanks for letting us know that BP has stepped up to the plate.

Ok Buck. Thanks for the info.

 

[buckwheat]

I was using your exact words. Here, I'll put them up again;.

Yes, that is what I wrote, in quoting you! And your problem with it is?

oh, and I added the correction that stops your silliness.

:I'm reading this to also say if standard practices are followed there will be no accidents (people dying, injured and enviro damage)..

Of course you are. That is why you are the simple person who is manifested here on this forum.

:Absolutist BS? You wrote that, not me.

There are some situations where absolute standards are appropriate and others where absolute judgements are not appropriate.

Discerning the difference is very difficult for you.

I'd say drilling an oil well 5,000 feet below the surface of a huge body of water isn't a situation where you should be trying to save $500,000. Stringent, definitive (close to absolute) standards are required. Apparently you disagree?

 

[buckwheat]

Well folks, there its is. It took a while to get there, but we are there now. Problem solved. All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

There you have it, the simplest human alive.

Did you swim to Europe?

Hopefully the Pilot or the Captain of the ship was following regs to a T.

Perhaps you'd rather have them just wing it.

You can't help yourself with your absolutist bs, the stuff of a 3 year old.

All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.!

Priceless!

Oh, btw wise guy, I was quoting your sarcastic remark with the Red.

I've corrected it so you can follow along with your own nonsense.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, that is what I wrote. And your problem with it is?





Of course you are. That is why you are the simple person who is manifested here on this forum.




There are some situations where absolute standards are appropriate and others where absolute judgements are not appropriate.

Discerning the difference is very difficult for you.

I'd say drilling an oil well 5,000 feet below the surface of a huge body of water isn't a situation where you should be trying to save $500,000. Stringent, definitive (close to absolute) standards are required. Apparently you disagree?

Ok, what stringent, definitive (close to absolute) standards didn't they follow?

And where was this opinion before the disaster happened?

"Absolute" standards?? WTF does that mean? "Absolute" as in cap all wells in the Gulf? Please tell me a standard that will result in "absolutes" that is anything other than the cessation of drilling.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, btw wise guy, I was quoting your sarcastic remark with the Red.

I've corrected it so you can follow along with your own nonsense.

And our circular argument rages on. You wrote it, I quoted you, you quoted me quoting you, you are now calling me sarcastic for me quoting you and I now defend myself as not being sarcastic for quoting you.

 

[buckwheat]

Ok, what stringent, definitive (close to absolute) standards didn't they follow.

Well, maybe they shouldn't be drilling there in the first place for one. Not drilling is pretty absolute.

Keep your eyes on the liberal MSM in the upcoming weeks and months. You'll see.

And where was this opinion before the disaster happened?

Bro, I'm just a part of an informed citizenry. You're part of the Sarah Palin anti intellectual movement that reads all of the newspapers apparently and sees Putin rearing his head over Alaskan airspace.

"Absolute" standards?? WTF does that mean? "Absolute" as in cap all wells in the Gulf? Please tell me a standard that will result in "absolutes" that is anything other than the cessation of drilling.

Is your sight going too? I think I qualified the word you're finding objectionable. You argue that the risks here are justified. I'll argue that they weren't.

I'm not supporting Obama on his agenda here but I was definitely against Cheney's bs with conservation is not a direction we want to go in or such similiar bs.

Was a big fan of Jimmy Carter's. See where his talk of energy independence and alternative energy got him with people like you.

 

[buckwheat]

And our circular argument rages on. You wrote it, I quoted you, you quoted me quoting you, you are now calling me sarcastic for me quoting you and I now defend myself as not being sarcastic for quoting you.

Circular?

You started it. Check your reading comprehension.

You were sarcastically drawing an incorrect conclusion to what I said and you originally made the quote in red, not me.

 

[buckwheat]

Circular?

You started it. Check your reading comprehension.

You were sarcastically drawing an incorrect conclusion to what I said and you originally made the quote in red, not me.

And our circular argument rages on. You wrote it, I quoted you, you quoted me quoting you, you are now calling me sarcastic for me quoting you and I now defend myself as not being sarcastic for quoting you.

You're adding dishonesty to your defects?

Yes, that is what I wrote. And your problem with it is?]

oh, and I added the correction that stops your silliness.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott SoCal
Well folks, there its is. It took a while to get there, but we are there now. Problem solved. All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwheat
There you have it, the simplest human alive.

Did you swim to Europe?

Hopefully the Pilot or the Captain of the ship was following regs to a T.

Perhaps you'd rather have them just wing it.

You can't help yourself with your absolutist bs, the stuff of a 3 year old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott SoCal
All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.!

Priceless!

Oh, btw wise guy, I was quoting your sarcastic remark with the Red.

I've corrected it so you can follow along with your own nonsense.

Now you're going to resort to lying about what happened 10 minutes before?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, maybe they shouldn't be drilling there in the first place for one. Not drilling is pretty absolute.

Keep your eyes on the liberal MSM in the upcoming weeks and months. You'll see.




Bro, I'm just a part of an informed citizenry. You're part of the Sarah Palin anti intellectual movement that reads all of the newspapers apparently and sees Putin rearing his head over Alaskan airspace.



Is your sight going too? I think I qualified the word you're finding objectionable. You argue that the risks here are justified. I'll argue that they weren't.

I'm not supporting Obama on his agenda here but I was definitely against Cheney's bs with conservation is not a direction we want to go in or such similiar bs.

Was a big fan of Jimmy Carter's. See where his talk of energy independence and alternative energy got him with people like you.

I bet you still are.


So you are for capping all off-shore wells as the only way forward. Glad you are on record with that. You are correct: it's pretty absolute.

 

[Anonymous]

You're adding dishonesty to your defects?



oh, and I added the correction that stops your silliness.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott SoCal
Well folks, there its is. It took a while to get there, but we are there now. Problem solved. All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwheat
There you have it, the simplest human alive.

Did you swim to Europe?

Hopefully the Pilot or the Captain of the ship was following regs to a T.

Perhaps you'd rather have them just wing it.

You can't help yourself with your absolutist bs, the stuff of a 3 year old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott SoCal
All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.!

Priceless!

Oh, btw wise guy, I was quoting your sarcastic remark with the Red.

I've corrected it so you can follow along with your own nonsense.

Now you're going to resort to lying about what happened 10 minutes before?

Wow. Just wow.

 

[buckwheat]

Well folks, there its is. It took a while to get there, but we are there now. Problem solved. All we have to do is follow regulations to a T.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop lying about what I said.

 

[buckwheat]

I bet you still are.


So you are for capping all off-shore wells as the only way forward. Glad you are on record with that. You are correct: it's pretty absolute.

Again, stop lying about what I said.

What does maybe mean to you?

That we should consider stopping drilling in the gulf?