World Politics

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

The situation in Syria is complex, but the tweet from the 'leader of the free world' Donald Trump is appalling, as if he really cares, that we have 'nice, new, sofisticated bombs' to deploy. Once the arrival of bombs, even as they were kept secret in some general's war dispatch, were announced through state chanels via sirens, to alert the people of the impending mourning and agony. Today bombing has entered social media and this is no small detail. I still have not gotten what is the signifcant difference between blowing up people, or perhaps only maming them, and killing them with nerve gas in terms of the moral perogative? Then again a 70 year-old boy in the White House says much of our times.

Syria and Russia(and Iran) have mutual defense agreements..kinda like the US via Nato and say, the Baltic states..If Russia threw a bunch of missiles into Latvia, what would the US do?

How many times has donnie said we should NOT be the moral compass of the world..who's to blame in Syria..well assad's benefactors are..Iran and Russia...

donnie is doing this not because he cares about the children of Syria..if he cared about that he would have done something when Russia and Syria were throwing anti personal weapons at civilian areas..like cluster bombs and barrels full of nails and ball bearings.
He does this to look like a tough guy to his base of deplorables..he's a wacko..

'Love Child' from a trump tower housekeeper? wouldn't be surprised..

 

[djpbaltimore]

It is always the one you least expect. :lol:

The Associated Press
@AP
BREAKING: The Russian military says that an alleged chemical attack in Syria was staged and directed by Britain.

I thought they said there was no attack?

 

[rhubroma]

The use of social media is desensitizing, whether it be using conventional or non bombarment, a commercialization and spectacularization of horror.

 

[ToreBear]

Re:

It is always the one you least expect. :lol:

The Associated Press
@AP
BREAKING: The Russian military says that an alleged chemical attack in Syria was staged and directed by Britain.

I thought they said there was no attack?

Next it will be a bomb hitting a rebel gas factory. Then it will be a cult suicide. Still I'm kinda waiting for the day when they say it's the aliens. :lol:

 

[python]

...exactly as i assumed in a post above, the attack took place some hours ago AND based on tentative data was barely effective b/c, as i assumed earlier, it was widely scattered to avoid the russian counter fire.

based on the factual crumbs i gleaned from tnt-turkey and al jazeera, there were total about 100 missiles fired. of these, it it claimed by some 'significant' and by others 'majority' was shot down by the antiquated syrian gear. the damage to a military science building was confirmed as well as to 6 military installations in and around damascus. surprisingly, there are reports of limited human casualties. the official sana claims shooting down 13 missiles around a military air field that was well expected as a target.

even if the preliminary reports are inaccurate, it is rather clear the military value of the attack is insignificant and can hardly serve the declarations. the russian threats, their early warning intelligence as well as the us own posturing gave the syrians the opportunity to either relocate or hide any valuable assets.

 

[macbindle]

There was a retired UK navy stuffed shirt on the Bbc news this morning. He made several points that caught my attention, the first being that Trumps "the missiles are coming, get ready" tweet may have been a ruse to get the Syrians to start moving their kit out of harms way, and therefore make it visible to spy satellites. Probably bollocks, I think. That would surely happen anyway as soon as action was mooted.

Secondly, he claimed that the successful attack demonstrated that Syrian air defence was not up to much. He did mention that the "capable" Russian S400 system was probably not switched on because the last thing the Russians would want would be for it to be shown that it doesn't work either. I note from Jane's defence site that Erdogan and the Russians have just rushed through a deal for supply of these weapons so this seems a fairer point.

May was on telly next to a Union Jack (only wheeled out when HMS Great Britain goes to war, or a royal karks it) bleating on about there being no choice but to respond and eliding the alledged Syrian use of chem weps with the nerve agent attack in Salisbury. This struck me as a little mendacious as it is clear that the attack on Syria steered well clear of the Ruskis so if this was a message to the Russians it seems a little confused. More for domestic UK consumption I suspect, in the hope that Britons feel some a response has been made to the Salisbury incident.

 

[Merckx index]

They hit three of Mr. Assad’s chemical weapons facilities: a scientific research center in greater Damascus that was used in the production of weapons, and two chemical weapons facilities west of Homs, one of which was used for the production of the nerve agent sarin and the other was part of a military command post, said Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/world/middleeast/trump-strikes-syria-attack.html

If they are making chemical weapons there now, or could in the future, why weren't these facilities shut down a long time ago? If they aren't and can't, what good does the bombing of them do?

 

[python]

...inspired by a 'stuffed shirt', decided to add some of my own armature nuggets, the retired chap should know that the s-400 (and s-300) surveillance radar is at work all the time and their frequencies are well known to any nato student.

also the cruise missiles are well known slow targets which aren't difficult to shoot if they were acquired at a sufficient distance (about 10-15 km) from a target. that's exactly, the range of the panshirs with which russia apparently upgraded syria. also, since the attack took place in the depth of night, the cruise missile aiming/targeting systems were likely relying on such vulnerable to counter measures technologies as gps, ir and laser. exactly the electronics area were nato has long claimed to be behind the evl russkis...

and ;lastly, the russian military official just claimed live that 71 of the 103 projectiles fired were intercepted and/or destroyed.

if plausible, even remotely, it is nothing but an embarrassment to pentagon...and if i understood the interpreter, the russian general said that apparently their anti air systems supplied to syria exceeded the expectations and they intend to redouble the efforts at training and supplying MORE of the systems .

 

[macbindle]

The most apposite response to that is 'Who knows?'

It is clear that this US/UK/France attack was not an act of war, but an act of theatre. Its military value is unclear, and therefore it is likely to be the national propogandic and product promotion values that are of import, and in those fields both sides are playing hard.

Interestingly, aircraft were not reported to have been used inside Syrian airspace so the air defences in Syria may have been considered a viable threat.

 

[python]

the french apparently either bluffing or something else is going on....per the russian briefing, no french aircraft nor other means were detected firing anything. they did specifically list the british and american missiled

curiously, it was the french who claimed to alert the russians while the us rep said they were not alerted. was macron lying or was just assigned a role of the one calling in emergency counting on vlad taking his call but not from a thump or theresa ? i'd bet on the latter given the lil napoleon one day old call to vlad.

 

[macbindle]

I bet there was very close contact between the Russians and the western countries. Neither side wants an escalation.

 

[ToreBear]

So the Russians say the Syrians shot down 70 cruise Missiles. :lol: Yes the French must be lying/bluffing since the Russians say.....

Come on dude.

Sipri has Syrian orders and transfers from Russia for the following:

Russia R: Syria	

*(36)	96K9 Pantsyr-S1	Mobile AD system	(2006)	2008-2013	(36)	Part of $400-730 m deal; no. could be up to 50

*(8)	Buk-M2/SA-17	SAM system	2007	2010-2013	(8)	
     	
*(12)	S-125 Pechora-2M	SAM system	(2007)	2011-2013	(12)	$200 m deal; Syrian SA-3 SAM systems rebuilt to Pechora M2 version

PS. Pantsyr is according to wikipepdia designed in 1994 and produced from 2008.

The information with the biggest Kernel of truth will as usual be from western sources.

 

[ToreBear]

Pentagon: 105 weapons deployed ZERO destroyed. :surprised:
Has the pentagon gone full Russian or was the raid that succesfull?

Around 40 Syrian SAMs launched. Most launched after the last missile had struck it's targets and without guidance.

All 105 weapons were on their targets within one to two minutes of each other.

So
Russia: The Syrians destroyed 70 missiles. :lol:
Syria: We Destroyed 13 missiles.
Pentagon, zero zip, nada, totally ineffectual defenses.

The Pentagon response seems to be too good to be true. But they unlike the others, especially the Russians don't have a history of wildly misleading statements. Since they used that many missiles in such a short period of time from different vectors, it's plausible that most got through.

I'm gonna go with the Pentagon version and keep my eyes open to information indicating otherwise.

 

[BullsFan22]

Maybe the Pentagon will find Saddam's WMD's in Damascus...

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Pentagon: 105 weapons deployed ZERO destroyed. :surprised:
Has the pentagon gone full Russian or was the raid that succesfull?

Around 40 Syrian SAMs launched. Most launched after the last missile had struck it's targets and without guidance.

All 105 weapons were on their targets within one to two minutes of each other.

So
Russia: The Syrians destroyed 70 missiles. :lol:
Syria: We Destroyed 13 missiles.
Pentagon, zero zip, nada, totally ineffectual defenses.

The Pentagon response seems to be too good to be true. But they unlike the others, especially the Russians don't have a history of wildly misleading statements. Since they used that many missiles in such a short period of time from different vectors, it's plausible that most got through.

I'm gonna go with the Pentagon version and keep my eyes open to information indicating otherwise.

Russia to find nerve gas stockpiles under closed US embassies and they have good evidence that the Skripals are not the real ones, they are British agent lookalikes while Assad is filmed delivering food packages to Syrian children..........

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Hey y'all. Do you guys remember the Skripal incident?

Did you ever wonder why a deadly nerve agent took hours to take effect rather than seconds like usual?
Did you ever wonder why the first responders worked on them for many, many minutes but suffered no ill effects?
Did you ever wonder why the Skripals recovered even though they didn't receive the correct antidote within the correct time frame?
Did you ever wonder why we still don't know where they were poisoned or why there are no suspects even with the ubiquity of surveillance cameras in the UK?

Well, an OPCW lab in Switzerland knows. The samples from the Skripals have been analyzed and the actual chemical used is called BZ. https://www.rt.com/news/424149-skripal-poisoning-bz-lavrov/

To quote wikipedia: "BZ is odorless and nonirritating with delayed symptoms several hours after contact." and this is interesting: "By 1959 the United States Army showed significant interest in deploying it as a chemical warfare agent.[3] It was originally designated "TK", but when it was standardized by the Army in 1961 it received the NATO code name "BZ".[3] The agent commonly became known as "Buzz" because of this abbreviation and the effects it had on the mental state of the human volunteers intoxicated with it in research studies at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland.[3] As described in retired Army psychiatrist James Ketchum's autobiographical book Chemical Warfare: Secrets Almost Forgotten (2006), work proceeded in 1964 when a general envisioned a scheme to incapacitate an entire trawler with aerosolized BZ; this effort was dubbed Project DORK.[6] BZ was ultimately weaponized for delivery in the M44 generator cluster and the M43 cluster bomb, until all such stocks were destroyed in 1989 as part of a general downsizing of the US chemical warfare program."

So now you know. A debilitating agent historically researched and used by the west was used to incapacitate the Skripals who have apparently recovered, even though they have been kept from the public and also kept from Russian consular staff even though one of them is a Russian citizen. We will never know all the facts, but we do know who was keeping the facts from us.

John Swanson

 

[macbindle]

You.

It's a partial account of what the Swiss lab said.. but hey...surprise surprise you are relying on Russia Today.

The Swiss lab also found A-234 – one of the nerve agents of the novichok group – “in its original form” and in considerable quantities.

The OPCW confirmed the findings of Porton Down

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

You.

It's a partial account of what the Swiss lab said.. but hey...surprise surprise you are relying on Russia Today.

The Swiss lab also found A-234 – one of the nerve agents of the novichok group – “in its original form” and in considerable quantities.

The OPCW confirmed the findings of Porton Down

So why didn't the attending nurse get sick even though she was in close contact?
Why did it takes hours instead of seconds to fall ill?
Why did they recover and not die?
Where are they?

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

"Lavrov added that the Swiss lab also pointed at the presence of the nerve agent A234 in the samples, but added that the lab noted that its presence in the samples appeared strange, given the substance’s high volatility and the relatively long period between the poisoning and the sample-taking." - https://nypost.com/2018/04/14/russia-swiss-lab-analysis-shows-nerve-agent-designed-in-west/

In other words the samples were spiked. Considerable quantities of A-234 means dead in seconds and all those in contact with them.

John Swanson

 

[aphronesis]

The NewYorkfuckingPost? What next? The Daily Mail? Blogs in the middle of nowhere? National Enquirer?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

The NewYorkfuckingPost? What next? The Daily Mail? Blogs in the middle of nowhere? National Enquirer?

Was there a factual error?

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/04/14/world/europe/ap-eu-russia-spy.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/skripals-skripal-russia-nerve-agent-bz-novichok-poison-salisbury-attack-latest-update-a8304841.html - "Russia’s foreign minister has claimed Sergei and Yulia Skripal were not poisoned by nerve agent novichok, but a separate chemical possessed by the UK and US."

Et cetera. You can watch the video of Lavrov's statement if you wish. No denials from any western (or any) governments, so I guess what Lavrov said were accurate. In other words the Skripal affair has been exposed as the obvious hoax that it is.

John Swanson

 

[aphronesis]

Your point?

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

So why didn't the attending nurse get sick even though she was in close contact?

It's a chemical, not bacteria or virus. It's not contagious once it's in the body.

Why did it takes hours instead of seconds to fall ill?

If it was novichok, they could have picked up traces of it, apparently at their home, which gradually worked it's way into their system. Or if you want to get a little wild, there was both novichok and BZ, and the two agents cancelled each other out. Nerve agents are generally AChE inhibitors, whereas BZ is an anti-cholinergic. IOW, nerve agents lead to an excess of acetylcholine, while BZ results in a deficit. In fact, BZ's effects are much like those of atropine, which is often used to treat nerve agent poisoning.

Why did they recover and not die?

AChE bound to nerve agent is gradually degraded and replaced by unbound enzyme. Generally speaking, if you don't die fairly quickly, you have a good chance of recovering.

By the way, even if it was BZ, that doesn't somehow prove it was a Western hoax. The agent has been around a long time, other countries have probably used it. Some even think the Russians used it back in 2003 during the theater siege. It's used to incapacitate, not to kill, but since its effects are somewhat unpredictable (think LSD on steroids), it hasn't been thought to be useful in war. It might be the kind of drug you would use to make some former spy you didn't like suffer, though.

While we're on this subject, did the Russians ever decide whether there was no gas attack in Syria, or there was, but it was perpetrated by the British? And are they really sure that two-thirds of the missiles were shot down?

 

[python]

to me everything is still narrowed down to 2 main factors:

1. the poison agent pathway to skripals
2. the transparency of sample custody once the investigation started...

regarding the 1st, we have the british version and the russian version. they are almost mutually exclusive. please correct me, but to-date. more than a month later, there was no public evidence, neither hard nor soft, (such as finger prints, videotapes, emails etc) that would link a russian operative delivering/spreading/imparting the poison into/around the skripals living space/habitat. there ARE british claims of the evidence being secret. i totally accept that and understand the reasons for secrecy. yet, unless one had made up his/her mind based on the secret never seen evidence, 'they did it' imo is still a declaration. thus, i turn my attention to sample custody as it is a cornerstone of any forensic conclusions derived from chemical analysis.

regarding the 2nd, to put it simply to keep the scientific and forensic veracity, we need to assure that a skripal sample (a biological matter such as their blood, urine, hair or a strip of contaminated clothing etc) was genuine before it was exposed to mass spectrometry. that is, it could not have been spiked or otherwise altered. once again, we have only one side of the equation. specifically, all we know for a fact is that a british military lab analyzed the samples passed to them my the british police and that a british foreign minister lied about the analysis positively linking the sample to russia. we also know that the international org tasked with independent analysis did got the samples weeks after the crime...we positively do not know if the international org requested proof of the samples chain of custody or if it conducted their own tests linking the sample dna to skripals.

having seen so many uncertainties, i cant say i have something to conclude about the crime with the confidence the british govt has.

any lab, including the swiss one that seems onto something, has to consider all the issues i just outlined to be fully believable.

 

[macbindle]

Re:

"Lavrov added that the Swiss lab also pointed at the presence of the nerve agent A234 in the samples, but added that the lab noted that its presence in the samples appeared strange, given the substance’s high volatility and the relatively long period between the poisoning and the sample-taking." - https://nypost.com/2018/04/14/russia-swiss-lab-analysis-shows-nerve-agent-designed-in-west/

In other words the samples were spiked. Considerable quantities of A-234 means dead in seconds and all those in contact with them.

John Swanson

Do you know from where the samples were taken and by whom?

Thought not.

For someone who thinks science is cool you don't seem to understand the basics