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World Politics

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ScienceIsCool said:
But why would you go to the trouble of using an amazingly lethal substance and apply it to a door knob where anyone could come into contact and betray its use? A-234 is also a volatile substance, so why would you apply it to a surface exposed to the sun, wind, and rain? And if applied in liquid form it would be sticky, meaning that anyone contacting it would be aware. Aerosolized and it wouldn't stick to the knob.

If you knew they were returning to their home soon (people have routines, you know), who else would be touching the doorknob? Generally speaking, no one touches the doorknob to your home except people who enter it, and they are usually the people who live there.

And how else are you going to expose them to it? Run up to them and spray it in their face, sort of like what happened in the Malaysian airport?

"Lavrov said the Swiss laboratory also identified a high concentration of A-234 agent, known as Novichok. Such a concentration would have quickly resulted in Skripal’s death, Lavrov said. " - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov/russias-lavrov-says-skripals-may-have-been-poisoned-by-substance-russia-never-made-idUSKBN1HL17K

This is new. This is not the same story that you linked earlier, and which I was referring to. That story said nothing about a high concentration. When different stories say different things, it’s hard to know exactly what the situation is.

Quote: "Lack of contamination with what? BZ or A-234? And where was there no contamination where it should have been and was tested for?"

Uh... Wouldn't this have been the basis and origin of any investigation?

I really don’t understand what you mean by this. Let’s back up. Why would both BZ and A-234 be used? Why not just BZ? Because it was developed in the U.S.? That doesn’t mean it couldn’t be used by Russians, just as the fact the Novichok was developed in Russia doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been used by a Westerner (note the hypocrisy here; Russia made the latter point, while at the same time using the origins of BZ as evidence it couldn’t have been them).

Second, how were the Skripals exposed to BZ? The door or something else they came into contact with was dusted with it? According to your logic, that would run the risk of exposing others to it, and give away the game. But any direct approach would run the risk of the perpetrators being identified.

Third, as I mentioned before, why were the Skripals hospitalized for weeks? This doesn’t sound like the effects of BZ to me. Also, the symptoms are quite different from those of an organophosphorus agent. Unless the Skripals as well as the hospital staff were in on this, this information might leak out, running the risk that someone would figure out it wasn’t Novichok. I can’t speak for the Skripals, but if I had just undergone what they had, I would compare what I experienced with the known effects of what I was supposedly exposed to, and draw my own conclusions.

Fourth, why would the British government want to do this? What have they gained from all this? Increased tensions with Putin—to what advantage?

I’m not saying you're wrong—I take this possibility seriously—but it’s a classic conspiracy theory. You begin with a conclusion—as I recall, you were saying from Day 1 that it was a false flag—then bring up all the evidence that is consistent with that conclusion. You don’t discuss the evidence that doesn’t fit.

I could say the same thing about the recent Syrian attack, though at least in that case I can understand why some anti-Syrian government forces would want to stage a chemical attack, to garner Western sympathy and maybe hope for more Western aid, though that’s a pretty naïve position.
 
Re:

macbindle said:
Lavrov has said he has "indisputable proof" that the Syrian chemical attack was staged by the British.

But he won't tell us what that proof is...

And the Salisbury attack was staged by the British too (no evidence presented to suggest that it was)

Here's the thing, John, I've no doubt that the UK is capable of deceit, but I can't for the life of me see how staging 2 attacks would further UK interests.

The clincher is the Western missile attack on Syria. It is very clear that the message to the Russians is 'carry on as normal, but don't let Assad use chems. Russia or Iran's foothold in Syria are untouched.

Russia was also saying that Yulia Skripal's comments about not needing help from Russia and telling her cousin to stay away were not made by her. Russian troll activity is supposed to be off the charts in the past few days.
 
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Merckx index said:
ScienceIsCool said:
But why would you go to the trouble of using an amazingly lethal substance and apply it to a door knob where anyone could come into contact and betray its use? A-234 is also a volatile substance, so why would you apply it to a surface exposed to the sun, wind, and rain? And if applied in liquid form it would be sticky, meaning that anyone contacting it would be aware. Aerosolized and it wouldn't stick to the knob.

If you knew they were returning to their home soon (people have routines, you know), who else would be touching the doorknob? Generally speaking, no one touches the doorknob to your home except people who enter it, and they are usually the people who live there.

And how else are you going to expose them to it? Run up to them and spray it in their face, sort of like what happened in the Malaysian airport?

"Lavrov said the Swiss laboratory also identified a high concentration of A-234 agent, known as Novichok. Such a concentration would have quickly resulted in Skripal’s death, Lavrov said. " - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov/russias-lavrov-says-skripals-may-have-been-poisoned-by-substance-russia-never-made-idUSKBN1HL17K

This is new. This is not the same story that you linked earlier, and which I was referring to. That story said nothing about a high concentration. When different stories say different things, it’s hard to know exactly what the situation is.

Quote: "Lack of contamination with what? BZ or A-234? And where was there no contamination where it should have been and was tested for?"

Uh... Wouldn't this have been the basis and origin of any investigation?

I really don’t understand what you mean by this. Let’s back up. Why would both BZ and A-234 be used? Why not just BZ? Because it was developed in the U.S.? That doesn’t mean it couldn’t be used by Russians, just as the fact the Novichok was developed in Russia doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been used by a Westerner (note the hypocrisy here; Russia made the latter point, while at the same time using the origins of BZ as evidence it couldn’t have been them).

Second, how were the Skripals exposed to BZ? The door or something else they came into contact with was dusted with it? According to your logic, that would run the risk of exposing others to it, and give away the game. But any direct approach would run the risk of the perpetrators being identified.

Third, as I mentioned before, why were the Skripals hospitalized for weeks? This doesn’t sound like the effects of BZ to me. Also, the symptoms are quite different from those of an organophosphorus agent. Unless the Skripals as well as the hospital staff were in on this, this information might leak out, running the risk that someone would figure out it wasn’t Novichok. I can’t speak for the Skripals, but if I had just undergone what they had, I would compare what I experienced with the known effects of what I was supposedly exposed to, and draw my own conclusions.

Fourth, why would the British government want to do this? What have they gained from all this? Increased tensions with Putin—to what advantage?

I’m not saying you're wrong—I take this possibility seriously—but it’s a classic conspiracy theory. You begin with a conclusion—as I recall, you were saying from Day 1 that it was a false flag—then bring up all the evidence that is consistent with that conclusion. You don’t discuss the evidence that doesn’t fit.

I could say the same thing about the recent Syrian attack, though at least in that case I can understand why some anti-Syrian government forces would want to stage a chemical attack, to garner Western sympathy and maybe hope for more Western aid, though that’s a pretty naïve position.

Cut to the chase? UK is the land of video surveillance. No suspects and no video. Very weird. The Skripals were incapacitated and then disappeared. They were first dead, then near dead with no hope of recovery, and now fully rehabilitated. No media appearance or even a Facebook post or Tweet. Where are they!? Ms. Skripal had a brief phone chat with her sister, which she has said was strange and felt scripted. Where are the Laxarus couple of father and daughter Skripal??? This is an amazing thing. They should be all over the news and have a "go fund me" page.

And please, if the Skripals have been in hospital for weeks, please tell me which one. Where have they been receiving care? Which hospital is capable of caring for patients with organophosphorous agents and where are they located?

The only facts we know for sure are that the Skripals were found on a bench showing signs of incapacitation including vomiting and loss of consciousness. The first responder was a nurse who attended to the senior Skripal without any affects. Other than that, nobody has shown any signs of coming in contact with a chemical agent, excluding a single police officer. Since then everybody has made a full recovery, The only accredited OPCW lab has analyzed blood samples from the Skripals weeks after their illness and it came back positive for traces of BZ and loads of A-234.

Assemble these and any other irrefutable facts. Use those to assess what the media has been reporting.

If you're honest with yourself, the least you can say is that the Skripals were poisoned with NOT a lethal nerve agent and that there has been no investigation as to who, what, where, or when a crime was committed. The why of all this can be inferred by the ancillary actions.

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Merckx index said:
ScienceIsCool said:
But why would you go to the trouble of using an amazingly lethal substance and apply it to a door knob where anyone could come into contact and betray its use? A-234 is also a volatile substance, so why would you apply it to a surface exposed to the sun, wind, and rain? And if applied in liquid form it would be sticky, meaning that anyone contacting it would be aware. Aerosolized and it wouldn't stick to the knob.

If you knew they were returning to their home soon (people have routines, you know), who else would be touching the doorknob? Generally speaking, no one touches the doorknob to your home except people who enter it, and they are usually the people who live there.

And how else are you going to expose them to it? Run up to them and spray it in their face, sort of like what happened in the Malaysian airport?

"Lavrov said the Swiss laboratory also identified a high concentration of A-234 agent, known as Novichok. Such a concentration would have quickly resulted in Skripal’s death, Lavrov said. " - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-skripal-lavrov/russias-lavrov-says-skripals-may-have-been-poisoned-by-substance-russia-never-made-idUSKBN1HL17K

This is new. This is not the same story that you linked earlier, and which I was referring to. That story said nothing about a high concentration. When different stories say different things, it’s hard to know exactly what the situation is.

Quote: "Lack of contamination with what? BZ or A-234? And where was there no contamination where it should have been and was tested for?"

Uh... Wouldn't this have been the basis and origin of any investigation?

I really don’t understand what you mean by this. Let’s back up. Why would both BZ and A-234 be used? Why not just BZ? Because it was developed in the U.S.? That doesn’t mean it couldn’t be used by Russians, just as the fact the Novichok was developed in Russia doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been used by a Westerner (note the hypocrisy here; Russia made the latter point, while at the same time using the origins of BZ as evidence it couldn’t have been them).

Second, how were the Skripals exposed to BZ? The door or something else they came into contact with was dusted with it? According to your logic, that would run the risk of exposing others to it, and give away the game. But any direct approach would run the risk of the perpetrators being identified.

Third, as I mentioned before, why were the Skripals hospitalized for weeks? This doesn’t sound like the effects of BZ to me. Also, the symptoms are quite different from those of an organophosphorus agent. Unless the Skripals as well as the hospital staff were in on this, this information might leak out, running the risk that someone would figure out it wasn’t Novichok. I can’t speak for the Skripals, but if I had just undergone what they had, I would compare what I experienced with the known effects of what I was supposedly exposed to, and draw my own conclusions.

Fourth, why would the British government want to do this? What have they gained from all this? Increased tensions with Putin—to what advantage?

I’m not saying you're wrong—I take this possibility seriously—but it’s a classic conspiracy theory. You begin with a conclusion—as I recall, you were saying from Day 1 that it was a false flag—then bring up all the evidence that is consistent with that conclusion. You don’t discuss the evidence that doesn’t fit.

I could say the same thing about the recent Syrian attack, though at least in that case I can understand why some anti-Syrian government forces would want to stage a chemical attack, to garner Western sympathy and maybe hope for more Western aid, though that’s a pretty naïve position.

Cut to the chase? UK is the land of video surveillance. No suspects and no video. Very weird. The Skripals were incapacitated and then disappeared. They were first dead, then near dead with no hope of recovery, and now fully rehabilitated. No media appearance or even a Facebook post or Tweet. Where are they!? Ms. Skripal had a brief phone chat with her sister, which she has said was strange and felt scripted. Where are the Laxarus couple of father and daughter Skripal??? This is an amazing thing. They should be all over the news and have a "go fund me" page.

And please, if the Skripals have been in hospital for weeks, please tell me which one. Where have they been receiving care? Which hospital is capable of caring for patients with organophosphorous agents and where are they located?

The only facts we know for sure are that the Skripals were found on a bench showing signs of incapacitation including vomiting and loss of consciousness. The first responder was a nurse who attended to the senior Skripal without any affects. Other than that, nobody has shown any signs of coming in contact with a chemical agent, excluding a single police officer. Since then everybody has made a full recovery, The only accredited OPCW lab has analyzed blood samples from the Skripals weeks after their illness and it came back positive for traces of BZ and loads of A-234.

Assemble these and any other irrefutable facts. Use those to assess what the media has been reporting.

If you're honest with yourself, the least you can say is that the Skripals were poisoned with NOT a lethal nerve agent and that there has been no investigation as to who, what, where, or when a crime was committed. The why of all this can be inferred by the ancillary actions.

John Swanson

Can you read your first paragraph a few times; remember your life before digital means; and ask yourself if those are the only conclusions?

Breathe.Apparently now, John Science says, the UK has CCTV on every home.

You’re not honest with yourself or anyone.
 
Well, I have to thank you, John. It was getting boring around here without any new Froome news, and the increasing likelihood that there won’t be a decision before June.

UK is the land of video surveillance. No suspects and no video. Very weird.

So how were the Skripals poisoned without it’s being caught on film? The government arranged to have the cameras turned off? Or maybe the Skripals voluntarily poisoned themselves? That would fit with your next point.

The Skripals were incapacitated and then disappeared. They were first dead, then near dead with no hope of recovery, and now fully rehabilitated. No media appearance or even a Facebook post or Tweet. Where are they!? Ms. Skripal had a brief phone chat with her sister, which she has said was strange and felt scripted. Where are the Lazarus couple of father and daughter Skripal??? This is an amazing thing. They should be all over the news and have a "go fund me" page.

So you believe the Skripals were in on the hoax? They were so eager to help the British mess up relations with Putin that they willingly allowed themselves to be exposed to BZ? Or just took it themselves? Or maybe you think they faked unconsciousness?

Or maybe you think they’re dead. Or locked up in a safe house somewhere so that they can’t tell us what happened. I really don’t know where you’re going with this.

And please, if the Skripals have been in hospital for weeks, please tell me which one. Where have they been receiving care? Which hospital is capable of caring for patients with organophosphorous agents and where are they located?

The name of the Salisbury hospital has been reported. Any hospital could do it, actually. It’s mostly a matter of letting the body recover. There’s not a lot else you can do.

The only facts we know for sure are that the Skripals were found on a bench showing signs of incapacitation including vomiting and loss of consciousness. The first responder was a nurse who attended to the senior Skripal without any affects. Other than that, nobody has shown any signs of coming in contact with a chemical agent, excluding a single police officer. Since then everybody has made a full recovery. The only accredited OPCW lab has analyzed blood samples from the Skripals weeks after their illness and it came back positive for traces of BZ and loads of A-234.

What about this police officer? If the Skripals were poisoned with BZ hours earlier, why would an officer responding to them have a serious condition following contact with a chemical agent?

And let’s not say “traces” of BZ and “loads” of A-234. You can’t conclude that with any certainty unless you’ve seen actual numbers, and I’m quite sure you haven’t.

If you're honest with yourself, the least you can say is that the Skripals were poisoned with NOT a lethal nerve agent and that there has been no investigation as to who, what, where, or when a crime was committed. The why of all this can be inferred by the ancillary actions.

If you’re honest, all you can conclude with certainty is…nothing, really. Were they poisoned with BZ? Since A-234 and BZ were both reported in the sample, and since there has been no report of their symptoms that would point to either one over the other, we can’t say which was the agent that poisoned them.

You never answered my question, why did the British have to spike the samples with A-234? Why wasn’t the use of BZ enough? Because it would be harder to pin that on the Russians? If that’s the case, then why wouldn’t the Russians poison the Skripals with BZ? Then when the British detected BZ, and knew it would be harder to make the case for Russian involvement, they spiked the samples with A-234 to strengthen their case. IOW, Russian dirty tricks and both sides lying. See how easy it is to dream up these theories?

Of course if you begin with the premise that the British wanted to poison them, and that they would do this and freely lie about it, whereas the Russians would never lie about doing something like this, then your version becomes more likely.
 
So we've got several pages of debate based on what the accused, the Russians, are saying about the findings of an OPCW lab.

Here's what the lab say:

Take a look at Spiez Laboratory (@SpiezLab): https://twitter.com/SpiezLab?s=09


And here's an article about Russian disinformation tactics:

https://rusi.org/commentary/syria-and-salisbury-continuing-battle-maintain-trust-evidence-illegal-use-chemical

So if what the Russians are saying is true, why are none of it's allies who are signed up to the OPCW supporting them??
 
Allegedly, there is a hold up on the OPCW investigation. Russia and Syria are barring their entrance to Douma over... (looks at notes)... security issues.

Bill Neely @BillNeelyNBC
The Chemical Weapons watchdog- inspectors have been in Damascus for 3 days but still haven't got access to the site of the gas attack in #Douma.

Bill Neely @BillNeelyNBC
Let's be clear- Chemical weapons inspectors are NOT being allowed into the site of the gas attack in #Douma. Russia & Syria cite security concerns. The UN ruled it safe. Russia says they need UN documents & denies tampering with site. It's 3rd day the team has been in Damascus.
 
I saw a clickbait link to Alex Jones ranting against the Western attack on Syria.

Between them, Trump and the Russians have done a good job of undermining trust in established news sources. Everything is a conspiracy.

Mind you, I struggle to watch the insipid shite that passes for news on the BBC. Al Jazeera is pretty good for depth and breadth. As for truth...well, I'll go along with the postmodernists on this one.
 
Of course there are security issues. There are remnants of poison gas lying around. You don't want those OPCW inspectors to get hurt going in there. It's much better if the Syrians and Russians clean the stuff up so that the inspectors can work in peace. ;)
 
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ToreBear said:
Of course there are security issues. There are remnants of poison gas lying around. You don't want those OPCW inspectors to get hurt going in there. It's much better if the Syrians and Russians clean the stuff up so that the inspectors can work in peace. ;)
Speaking of which... When Trump Tomahawked those Syrian chemical warfare facilities, why weren't there massive casualties from the release of all those stockpiles? In an urban area no less. Weird, hey?

John Swanson
 
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macbindle said:
So we've got several pages of debate based on what the accused, the Russians, are saying about the findings of an OPCW lab.

Here's what the lab say:

Take a look at Spiez Laboratory (@SpiezLab): https://twitter.com/SpiezLab?s=09


And here's an article about Russian disinformation tactics:

https://rusi.org/commentary/syria-and-salisbury-continuing-battle-maintain-trust-evidence-illegal-use-chemical

So if what the Russians are saying is true, why are none of it's allies who are signed up to the OPCW supporting them??

Well yeah. It's easy to find A-234 in a spiked sample. No comment from Spiez on the BZ though... I'm sure they got that from the mussels they ate at Zizi's or something. That stuff is practically everywhere.

John Swanson
 
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you sound a tad too self righteous mac... truth exists only in God or, if the All Mighty isn't sharing, it equals a belief one settles on. albeit well or poorly researched...jazeera, rt, bbc, fox, or any msm can't be truth-conductors by definition coz they are partisan....

on another note, again the western msm completely ignored it, the russian military defends their claims and even elaborated...i sell it it for what i bought it: 71 of 103 blah blah intercepted....analysis of targets....praises for pantsyrs (almost 100% claims) and a doo-doo for s-200 (almost 20 rocket blanks).

a sinful thought attended me - if the russian claims are so aggressive, would it not be their message to america ? which one and why ?

one answer could be way too obvious - the russians in syrian uniforms, not syrians, manned those anti-air systems they claim were so successful. granted, the us should have had an idea, but since that area is under a complete assad control, it would have been limited if a concerted effort was made to conceal. to add, russia would be ill interested advertising its moves. thus any western estimates, are just guesses, i'd reckon. believe what one wishes.
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
ToreBear said:
Of course there are security issues. There are remnants of poison gas lying around. You don't want those OPCW inspectors to get hurt going in there. It's much better if the Syrians and Russians clean the stuff up so that the inspectors can work in peace. ;)
Speaking of which... When Trump Tomahawked those Syrian chemical warfare facilities, why weren't there massive casualties from the release of all those stockpiles? In an urban area no less. Weird, hey?

John Swanson

Not really. Since the site that was in an urban area was for research.
 
Re:

python said:
you sound a tad too self righteous mac... truth exists only in God or, if the All Mighty isn't sharing, it equals a belief one settles on. albeit well or poorly researched...jazeera, rt, bbc, fox, or any msm can't be truth-conductors by definition coz they are partisan....


For the biggest of pictures, yes. But on a micro level, no. There is an objective truth as to whether Skripal's blood contained BZ, and whether or not the sample was tampered with by the British. No real need to delve into epistemology here.
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Speaking of which... When Trump Tomahawked those Syrian chemical warfare facilities, why weren't there massive casualties from the release of all those stockpiles? In an urban area no less. Weird, hey?

John Swanson

It was reported that the missiles were designed to burn--i.e., incinerate any chemicals--rather than explode (and scatter) on impact. Keep in mind also that nerve agents, at least, are usually stored in binary form, just to avoid situations like this, where bombing a storage depot releases the substances. Uncombined, they're harmless. For the same reason, the Russian explanation for the chemical incident about a year ago--that bombs had fallen on a rebel storage depot--is unlikely, even if one accepts the premise that the rebels managed to acquire these agents and import them into Syria.

In any case, these were facilities that had the capability of making such agents, not storing them. The honest Syrians got rid of all their chemical stockpiles a long time ago, remember?

From wiki:

The OPCW began preliminary inspections of Syria's chemical weapons arsenal on 1 October 2013,[10] and actual destruction began on 6 October.[11] Under OPCW supervision, Syrian military personnel began "destroying munitions such as missile warheads and aerial bombs and disabling mobile and static mixing and filling units".[12] The destruction of Syria's declared chemical weapons production, mixing, and filling equipment was successfully completed by the 31 October deadline,[13] but the destruction of chemical weapon stockpiles fell well behind schedule, which had been scheduled for completion by 6 February 2014.[14] Only on 23 June 2014, were the remaining declared chemicals shipped out of Syria for destruction.[15] The destruction of the most dangerous chemicals was performed at sea aboard the Cape Ray, a vessel of the United States Maritime Administration's Ready Reserve Force, crewed with U.S. Navy and civilian merchant mariners. The actual destruction operations, performed by a team of U.S. Army civilians and contractors, destroyed 600 metric tons of chemical agents in 42 days.[16] By 18 August 2014, all of the remaining declared and surrendered chemicals had been destroyed offshore

Western officials, such as British Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, had expressed concerns about the completeness of Syria's disclosures, and said the OPCW mission should remain in place following removal of chemical weapons until verification tasks can be completed.[20] A late disclosure in 2014 regarding Syria's ricin program raised doubts about completeness of the government's declaration of its chemical weapons stockpile,[21][22] and in early May 2015, OPCW announced that inspectors had found traces of sarin and VX nerve agent at a military research site in Syria that had not been declared previously by the Assad regime

Why would such an honest person as Assad, only trying to defend his country from foreign aggressors, not have declared those stockpiles? Weird, hey?
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...attacks-nikki-haley-putin-assad-a8307776.html
President Donald Trump has reportedly decided to halt the roll-out of sanctions against Russia for its support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, contradicting a top diplomat's claims that the sanctions would be announced on Monday.

US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley said this weekend that the US would roll out the new sanctions as part of its plan to send a "strong message" about the Assad regime's alleged use of chemical weapons.

On Monday morning, however, White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said the administration was still considering such a move, and that the decision would be made "in the near future".
...
"You will see that Russian sanctions will be coming down," Ms Haley said on CBS' Face the Nation on Sunday. "[Treasury Secretary Steve] Mnuchin will be announcing those on Monday if he hasn't already, and they will go directly to any sort of companies that were dealing with equipment related to Assad and chemical weapons use."

Not so fast there, missy. :D
 
So while everyone looks to Douma, "someone" (maybe named "bibi") attacked an air base -
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43792120
Early on Tuesday, Syrian state media said the country's air defences had responded to a missile attack over the western city of Homs.

The missiles targeted Shayrat air base, the media outlets reported, without saying who was responsible.

Another report, from the pro-Iranian Hezbollah militia, said that Syrian air defences had intercepted three missiles targeting Dumair military airport, north-east of the capital Damascus.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5232725,00.html
Syrian media, officials report 6 missiles launched at Homs military airbase, 3 at base on Damascus outskirts, all intercepted; 'No US military activity in area at this time,' Pentagon says; IDF Spokesperson's Unit declines comment;
 
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