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Dec 7, 2010
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redtreviso said:
Ed Shultz is hardly liberal..He's just objective enough to be labeled as not RW..As for him furthering the "they have no cause or message" talking point, I don't see the scotties dismissing the teab-party for "keep government out of my medicare" and such ftardiness. Already the OWS is much bigger than the teaparty movement and is not funded by Koch and Armey. The elected and the to be elected will soon find it advantageous to speak for them. Let the Republicans say "we are the 1%" and see how that works for them.

and btw.. Boston PD kicked the hornet's nest last night..

I wonder how many of these great citizens know what it is they are protesting about? How many of them actualy vote? :eek:

One thing is without a doubt......they need to get some toilets and showers down there ASAP.
 
May 23, 2010
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""A grotesque imbalance continues. Corporate executives draw multi-million-dollar bonuses even while driving their companies into the ground. Executive income is no longer driven by success but helps contribute to failure. Their bonuses are the aspect of their corporations that many executives focus on most keenly. Some Wall Street firms have been shown to deliberately create financial instruments intended to fail, and then selling them to clients. ""

vastly understated...

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/10/tea_and_empathy.html
 
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Beat on them all you want, but their activism will certainly cause some of them to think more thoroughly about what they believe, and that is never a bad thing. Maybe some don't have a message because the see they current narrative as so far removed from reality that they don't want to articulate it in the terms of current public discourse?
 
May 23, 2010
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Glenn_Wilson said:
I wonder how many of these great citizens know what it is they are protesting about? How many of them actualy vote? :eek:

One thing is without a doubt......they need to get some toilets and showers down there ASAP.

and now back to Andrew Breitbart
 
May 13, 2009
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aphronesis said:
it seems rather clear what the protest is against--however vague and wide it's cast for the moment--and every time the media repeats this criticism it feels that they're simply being obtuse and willfully missing the point for the sake of some cheap laughs. what the protests are 'for' isn't fully developed. and many don't want it to be yet. there's a real fear that if issues are made too specific and too narrow, too soon, that there will be overtures to placate some concerns in a "not too distant future," that the potential momentum will be lost and there will nothing a perpetuation of the status quo. or still worse. again.

The only ones who think this is a bad strategy are the media who would like to have an easy job by getting handed a few talking points which they could parrot on their shows.

At this point, it seems that the protest tries to get a broad base. In that sense the 'I am the 99%' slogan is pure genius.

As for solving the problems we're facing, does anybody really expect that a protest movement comes up with a detailed plan? And even if they had one, would you expect any politician to accept such a plan and try to get it through congress?

Protest, by its nature, will always be protest against something.

Clearly the state of affairs, where special interests basically can dictate law by virtually bribing lawmakers with campaign contributions** is not working. How to fix it is not going to be a simple exercise, and nobody should expect the protesters to come up with detailed, workable plans. It's not like they're running for president (not that those guys have any plans either).

** actually the reality is much sadder. Instead of doling out real money for campaigns, congressmen are nowadays beaten into submission by the simple threat of purchasing ads against them come election time. Special interests don't even have to spend real money. They only have to mount a credible treat against someones re-election campaigns. That's how bad it has become.
 
Jul 4, 2011
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Cobblestones said:
The only ones who think this is a bad strategy are the media who would like to have an easy job by getting handed a few talking points which they could parrot on their shows.

At this point, it seems that the protest tries to get a broad base. In that sense the 'I am the 99%' slogan is pure genius.

As for solving the problems we're facing, does anybody really expect that a protest movement comes up with a detailed plan? And even if they had one, would you expect any politician to accept such a plan and try to get it through congress?

Protest, by its nature, will always be protest against something.

Clearly the state of affairs, where special interests basically can dictate law by virtually bribing lawmakers with campaign contributions** is not working. How to fix it is not going to be a simple exercise, and nobody should expect the protesters to come up with detailed, workable plans. It's not like they're running for president (not that those guys have any plans either).

** actually the reality is much sadder. Instead of doling out real money for campaigns, congressmen are nowadays beaten into submission by the simple threat of purchasing ads against them come election time. Special interests don't even have to spend real money. They only have to mount a credible treat against someones re-election campaigns. That's how bad it has become.

I have to agree with you. There were many mass protests in India a few months ago. The actual reason for protest was to pass a bill for an external audit for investigations into corruption but for the protesters it was a protest against corruption and many people don't know what the bill draft actually says. The govt was pushed into action and is somewhat trying to set thing right (not super successfully leading to campaigns against the ruling party in a few constituencies which go into election).
The function imo of a protest is to rankle the feathers of the establishment into action not to provide perfect solutions.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Glenn_Wilson said:
I wonder how many of these great citizens know what it is they are protesting about?

there is so much to be angry about, it is difficult to get any crowd to focus the protest on any one thing.

One thing is without a doubt......they need to get some toilets and showers down there ASAP.

this is from a friend of mine on wall street: "[his company] offered to pay for up to 100 porta johns (because the protesters were peeing on walls and behind buildings, in smoking areas, etc.), but the NYPD said no." (parenthesis mine)

FWIW
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Seriously, you think Ed Schultz is RW? Well, I guess compared to you he is.

As I said days ago on the protesters, they may get an emotional bounce out of this, but it is going to cause zero change to legislation. Zero, zip, none. The money is so entrenched in Washington this is merely a blip on the radar screen. It isn't until politicians, and really, those with great power over them, are faced with drastic alterations in their livelihood, be that by hook or by crook, that we will see the change many of these people seek.


Two comments. First, I'd like to see you shed those points. And please do so with the compelling detail that Johnston does in his book, which I gather you have not read.

Next, remove Red from this for a moment, as I think you'd like much of Johnston's book, Perfectly Legal. Despite what's written in that link - which comes from a liberal alternative newspaper from my home town by the way - the thrust of Johnson's books and articles focus on rigging and warping of the tax code, and are extremely well researched and detailed. The man has an amazing grasp on the federal, and state, tax code, having studied it for over two decades. He has written several times on how small business owners are getting the shaft because they simply do not have the financial power to influence the political system the way others are. And if you do not believe that, then I'm not sure what else to say.

We can't in fact, today, say what impact the protests will have on American capitalism. There isn't going to be a revolution in the immediate future for the reason you indicate, however, what the long term effects will be is uncertain and unknowable.

There is, though, a whiff of revolution in the air, if not an actual one in effect, that has blown over from the Arab world and passed through Europe to finally arrive at the Atlantic coast of America. This in itself is exceptional, as I have already mentioned in a previous post, because where the social unrest is being generated is in the very citadel of capital at New York. Chalk it up to the zeitgeist I suppose.

The rhetorical questions of what the protesters want, is merely an evasive tactic of the ideologues or the merely stupid to vilify, deride and dismiss them at once. What they want is simple and goes against what to them is such an obvious democratic evil: for America to be unchained from the shackles of an economy that's become ideology. And from a type of deregulated hyper-financial capitalism that's been practiced since Reagan, in which huge amounts of wealth is generated and controlled by the few, while the inevitable counterpart of colossal losses are unloaded upon society's shoulders by increasing the national debt infinitely. They thus want government to put an end to, or at least limit the power of, the financial extremists who reign over Wall Street and hence the nation. Oligarchs who operate in ways that are exclusive to their interests and those of the super-rich. Those, in short, who FDR once called "economic royalists."

They don't know how this is to be done, only that it must be done, if the festering wound of an ever widening gap between wealth and poverty in the nation, and the rampant social inequality and injustice that this breeds as a result of the system, is to be healed. Most of the protesters are just conscientious citizens whose hearts are in the right place and not the radicals that they have been branded as in much of the press and political discourse. This only demonstrates, though, that the wound is festering and even if the short term effects will be liquidated by the same system they are protesting against and a political class that unwaveringly sustains it: the Occupy Wall Street movement nevertheless represents a welcomed US civic reawakening that hasn't been felt since the Vietnam era. Consequently, the long term effects may perhaps amount to something.

What is certain today, however, is the thoroughly predictable and incredibly hysterical reaction from Wall Street and the super-rich in general, as well as their political cronies who support them, especially from the so called Grand Old Party, even if most of the democrats have shunned them as well (or at any rate only given them a lukewarm response.) This only demonstrates, of course, just how far the ethos of America is ideologically, politically, socially and economically ensconced within the right's mentality, which predominates over the country.

There is nothing comparable to the magnitude and behavior of the Tea Party gatherings we witnessed in 2009 and yet the congress majority leader, Eric Cantor, had no compunction in denouncing the "assaults" and "the pitting of Americans against American's" by the protesters. Only great confidence in finding support against their cause throughout the nation, could make such a misguided and hypocritical position possible. Even the GOP presidential candidates have entered within the debate, such as Mitt Romney who accused the protesters of declaring a "class war," which is another brazen flip-sided falsification of reality, while Herman Cain added that they are of course "anti-American." My favorite, in any case, is senator Rand Paul's comment that, for some strange and incomprehensible reason, the protesters have begun to take possession of iPads, because they feel the rich don't deserve them. And if you have watched CNBC, you would have heard the protesters have been "unleashed" and that they are "aligned with Lenin."

To understand all of this, you have be aware of the fact that such crazy and irrational reactions, make part of a far more wide-ranging syndrome, in which the rich Americans that amply benefit from a rigged system in their favor, react in a hysterical mode against anyone that dares expose just how rigged the system actually is. Admittedly I haven't read Johnson's books, but it sounds like he's saying the same thing.

Last year you may recall a few barons of finance got infuriated over a few meek criticisms Obama levied upon the system, accusing him of socialism (that dirty word), because he supports the so called Volcker bill that simply wants to impede those banks sustained by federal guarantees to engage in the most risky speculative financial practices. Then there's the defamatory campaign against Elizabeth Warren, a financial reformer and candidate for the Massachusetts senate seat in congress, who in a YouTube video outlined comprehensibly and eloquently her reasons for why the rich should be taxed more. There was nothing radical about what she said: it's only a modern version of Oliver Wendell Holmes' definition, according to which "taxes are what we pay to live in a civil society." Yet if you listen to the paladins of wealth, Warren is the reincarnation of Lev Trotsky. George Will declared her's to be a "collectivist program," and believes that "individualism is a chimera." Rush Limbaugh put it more caustically when he called Warren's proposal a "parasite that hates its host and that wants to kill it while sucking its blood."

And yet the protesters are the crazy and destructive "radicals.":rolleyes:

Meanwhile the nation is in the hands of these killers and obliterators, who are the real radicals and extremists, not the protesters, that operate non stop under the protection of the government. I really can't comment any further on the dreadful state of affairs.
 
Cobblestones said:
The only ones who think this is a bad strategy are the media who would like to have an easy job by getting handed a few talking points which they could parrot on their shows.

At this point, it seems that the protest tries to get a broad base. In that sense the 'I am the 99%' slogan is pure genius.

As for solving the problems we're facing, does anybody really expect that a protest movement comes up with a detailed plan? And even if they had one, would you expect any politician to accept such a plan and try to get it through congress?

Protest, by its nature, will always be protest against something.

Clearly the state of affairs, where special interests basically can dictate law by virtually bribing lawmakers with campaign contributions** is not working. How to fix it is not going to be a simple exercise, and nobody should expect the protesters to come up with detailed, workable plans. It's not like they're running for president (not that those guys have any plans either).

** actually the reality is much sadder. Instead of doling out real money for campaigns, congressmen are nowadays beaten into submission by the simple threat of purchasing ads against them come election time. Special interests don't even have to spend real money. They only have to mount a credible treat against someones re-election campaigns. That's how bad it has become.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more with this.
 
May 23, 2010
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Glenn_Wilson said:
I wonder how many of these great citizens know what it is they are protesting about? How many of them actualy vote? :eek:

Protesters in 1968 were subject to the draft but could not vote..Do you think they didn't know what they were protesting about? Think they weren't heard?
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Glenn_Wilson said:
He is a genius because the carbon offsets he buys are from his own company.
Well that would be scandalous! Except that the "company", Generation Investment Management, doesn't actually sell carbon offsets, so it'd be kinda hard then for him to buy carbon offsets from his own company. What GIM is, in fact, is an investment management firm that invests in other companies that produce green technologies and programs, including companies that do sell carbon offsets.

But hey - Al Gore's fat! He also has nothing to do with why almost all scientists believe climate change is real and I can only assume that conservatives can't get past "Al Gore!" because they're children who are more interested in character assassinations of the "messenger" than the truth value of what he's saying. And dumbest of all, they seem to think that demonstrating Al Gore's "hypocrisy" will somehow make climate change go away.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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VeloCity said:
Well that would be scandalous! Except that the "company", Generation Investment Management, doesn't actually sell carbon offsets, so it'd be kinda hard then for him to buy carbon offsets from his own company. What GIM is, in fact, is an investment management firm that invests in other companies that produce green technologies and programs, including companies that do sell carbon offsets.

But hey - Al Gore's fat! He also has nothing to do with why almost all scientists believe climate change is real and I can only assume that conservatives can't get past "Al Gore!" because they're children who are more interested in character assassinations of the "messenger" than the truth value of what he's saying. And dumbest of all, they seem to think that demonstrating Al Gore's "hypocrisy" will somehow make climate change go away.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Beat on them all you want, but their activism will certainly cause some of them to think more thoroughly about what they believe, and that is never a bad thing. Maybe some don't have a message because the see they current narrative as so far removed from reality that they don't want to articulate it in the terms of current public discourse?

But what's going on on the opposite side? This, to me, seems to be an equally valid query.

The answer: well what's for sure is that the Master's of the Universe at Wall Street understand, deep down, how much their position is morally indefensible. They aren't Jhon Galt and they're not even Steve Jobs. They are people that became rich trafficking in complex financial schemes that, far from bringing economic benefits to Americans, have contributed to throwing us all into a crisis, the backlashes of which continue to devastate the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.

They still, however, haven't payed for anything. Their institutions were saved from bankruptcy with few consequences to them. They continue to benefit from implicit and explicit federal guarantees - basically, we are still in a race in which they are in the lead and always win, while the struggling masses are staggering behind and hence continuously loose. And they also benefit from fiscal breaks and shortcuts, thanks to which, frequently, folks with multi-million dollar earnings pay less taxes on them than do middle class families on theirs.

This special treatment doesn't support an in depth analysis or calls to greater consciousness, such as the protesters aim to provide, and, therefore, according to them their should be no in depth analysis nor calls to greater consciousness. In fact the more moderate and reasonable a critic's message is, the more vitriolic the demonizing rhetoric must be that's hurled against the messenger: just as was demonstrated by the attempts to befoul Elizabeth Warren.

So who are, consequently, the anti-Americans? Or better yet the radicals and extremists? Certainly not the protesters, who simply attempt to make their voices heard publicly and before the corrupt establishment, as well as the incestuous and symbiotic relationship between the government and Wall Street. No, the real extremists here are the American oligarchs, who want to suffocate whatever criticism there is in circulation about the source of their wealth. And they largely own the media, so their message gets heard more frequently and more loudly than those of the protesters. Like music in the background that you can't escape from unless you change the frequency, which is almost impossible to do under their regime.

Add this to the pertinacy today of the Marxist analysis about the crisis of overproduction provoked by a capitalism that compromises the buying power of workers, and one gets some idea of the dimension of the class problem that Wall Street has instigated in America. The consequent manifestations of public dissent against this capitalism is thus natural and a long time in the making. It should be underscored that next to the record profits of the gurus of finance, there stands an analogous lowering of salaries to their 50 year minimum, both in relationship to gross business profits and in proportion to the GNP. The top wage earners have thus been getting progressively richer, while the employed and laborers have either remained fixed in their economic status, or else have witnessed their condition get worse since the 70s really.

Capitalism tried to bypass the inevitable consumer crisis that should have resulted because of this, through the type of creative finance that was offered to the new poor on credit at a good market price. However, the bursting of the real estate bubble of subprime mortgages has interrupted the illusion.

I think what we are getting is a gradual turn with respect to the last 30 years marked by "Reagan hedonism." At the nation where talking badly about the rich had been considered practically taboo, now this custom is being challenged. It went against the American Dream, the myth where everyone has the same opportunity to get rich if they work hard enough for it. For years there were best sellers like "Secrets of The Millionaire Mind, The Millionaire Next Door, Rich Dad, Poor Dad and so forth, for which American readers seemed obsessed to know what made the millionaire's mind tic, his secrets, etc.

Like he once said: workers of the world...
 
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VeloCity said:
Well that would be scandalous! Except that the "company", Generation Investment Management, doesn't actually sell carbon offsets, so it'd be kinda hard then for him to buy carbon offsets from his own company. What GIM is, in fact, is an investment management firm that invests in other companies that produce green technologies and programs, including companies that do sell carbon offsets.

But hey - Al Gore's fat! He also has nothing to do with why almost all scientists believe climate change is real and I can only assume that conservatives can't get past "Al Gore!" because they're children who are more interested in character assassinations of the "messenger" than the truth value of what he's saying. And dumbest of all, they seem to think that demonstrating Al Gore's "hypocrisy" will somehow make climate change go away.

I can only assume that conservatives can't get past "Al Gore!" because they're children who are more interested in character assassinations of the "messenger" than the truth value of what he's saying. And dumbest of all, they seem to think that demonstrating Al Gore's "hypocrisy" will somehow make climate change go away.

Lest anyone disagree with global warming... the science is "in" crowd, shall be labeled as children. :rolleyes:

You can remove the quotations around the word hypocrisy as Gore embodies the very definition of the word.

Being in the science community, I'm sure you are aware of recent data collected from Nasa's Tell satellite. I'm sure you've heard of Christopher Horner. I'm sure you've heard of Richard Lindzen of MIT;

What we see is that the very foundation of the issue of global warming is wrong.
So where do we go from here?
It is hard to tell, given that to note this constitutes an “insult to the sensibilities of the educated class and the entire East and West Coasts.”

http://www.lindahall.org/mediafiles/Lindzen.pdf

and the hundreds of scientists that remain unconvinced of global warming causation being human anthropogenic activities.

Dr. Ivar Giaever;

Giaever announced his resignation from APS was due to the group's belief in man-made global warming fears. Giaever explained in his email to APS: "In the APS it is ok to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible? The claim (how can you measure the average temperature of the whole earth for a whole year?) is that the temperature has changed from ~288.0 to ~288.8 degree Kelvin in about 150 years, which (if true) means to me is that the temperature has been amazingly stable, and both human health and happiness have definitely improved in this 'warming' period."

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/12797/Exclusive-Nobel-PrizeWinning-Physicist-Who-Endorsed-Obama-Dissents-Resigns-from-American-Physical-Society-Over-Groups-Promotion-of-ManMade-Global-Warming

Harold Lewis;

It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist. Anyone who has the faintest doubt that this is so should force himself to read the ClimateGate documents, which lay it bare. (Montford's book organizes the facts very well.) I don't believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

APS management has gamed the problem from the beginning, to suppress serious conversation about the merits of the climate change claims. Do you wonder that I have lost confidence in the organization?

I do feel the need to add one note, and this is conjecture, since it is always risky to discuss other people's motives. This scheming at APS HQ is so bizarre that there cannot be a simple explanation for it. Some have held that the physicists of today are not as smart as they used to be, but I don't think that is an issue. I think it is the money, exactly what Eisenhower warned about a half-century ago. There are indeed trillions of dollars involved, to say nothing of the fame and glory (and frequent trips to exotic islands) that go with being a member of the club. Your own Physics Department (of which you are chairman) would lose millions a year if the global warming bubble burst. When Penn State absolved Mike Mann of wrongdoing, and the University of East Anglia did the same for Phil Jones, they cannot have been unaware of the financial penalty for doing otherwise. As the old saying goes, you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. Since I am no philosopher, I'm not going to explore at just which point enlightened self-interest crosses the line into corruption, but a careful reading of the ClimateGate releases makes it clear that this is not an academic question.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100058265/us-physics-professor-global-warming-is-the-greatest-and-most-successful-pseudoscientific-fraud-i-have-seen-in-my-long-life/

Bingo. We have a winner.

The science is not "in", in fact.
 
I think, at least hope, that most people contributing to this thread are aware that studies of brain differences associated with political differences have become a hot subject of discussion. Here’s an interesting article summarizing some of the most recent work:

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more...ign=Feed:+EthicalTechnology+Ethical+Technolog


We found that greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex, whereas greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala. These results were replicated in an independent sample of additional participants. Our findings extend previous observations that political attitudes reflect differences in self-regulatory conflict monitoring and recognition of emotional faces by showing that such attitudes are reflected in human brain structure.
Past studies, as well as the ones mentioned here, have shown that liberals are more likely to respond to “informational complexity, ambiguity, and novelty”. Considering the role of the ACC in conflict monitoring, error detection, and pattern recognition/ evaluation, this would make perfect sense.
Liberals, according to this model, would be likely to engage in more flexible thinking, working through alternate possibilities before committing to a choice. Even after committing, if alternate contradicting data comes along, they would be more likely to consider it.
Conservatives respond to threatening situations with more aggression than do liberals and are more sensitive to threatening facial expressions. This heightened sensitivity to emotional faces suggests that individuals with conservative orientation might exhibit differences in brain structures associated with emotional processing such as the amygdala.
So, when faced with an ambiguous situation, conservatives would tend to process the information initially with a strong emotional response. This would make them less likely to lean towards change, and more likely to prefer stability. Stability means more predictability, which means more expected outcomes, and less of a trigger for anxiety.
But…

this “liberal/conservative thinking style” division doesn’t account for those types of individuals mentioned up there in point number 2. Some people are just really complex. Maybe they are highly emotionally sensitive and have a large amygdala, but also have a prominent ACC and prefer novelty and ambiguity. Those people exist, and I know some of them personally. The really complex people never fit neatly into models like these. Furthermore, I hypothesize that those complex people are more likely to be the ones to switch parties at some point. Because they have the traits that make them receptive to both kinds of arguments—logical and emotional—it might take one particular issue that strikes a chord that swings them one way or another. However, I don’t think these “party switchers” are necessarily moderates; they may be just as extremely committed to those new ideals as they were the old ones. Also, these “party-switchers” might be the best ones to champion reaching across party lines; they know, to some extent, how the other side feels and how best to reach them.

This last quote is important. I think the general conclusions make a lot of sense for some kinds of liberals and some kinds of conservatives, namely, academic liberals and religious or social conservatives. I’m less certain about, say, blue collar/union liberals and economic conservatives. For example, I assume Scott is the latter type of conservative, but he seems just as comfortable with “informational complexity” and “flexible thinking” as the leftists on this forum. Whether one agrees with his views or not, they are often well thought out, at least IMO.

As an interesting sidelight, I have often wondered if there is any correlation—among cycling fans—of political views with views on Armstrong. One might think that a liberally-minded person would find it easier than a conservative to discard the widespread original view of LA as a clean rider making it sheerly on talent and drive as more and more evidence of doping accumulated. In fact, I have toyed with the idea of a poll on this question. I know Scott definitely does not fit that correlation—he is very “leftist” in his views on LA--but I don’t know about others here. Could someone like Polish be a liberal? Could someone like Race Radio be a conservative? Curious about this.

P.S. - Scott, yes there are some scientists who continue to deny AGW. Are you aware that there is almost no scientific idea that is universally accepted? For example, there are some very intelligent and well-informed experts in viral biology who continue to maintain that HIV is not the causative factor of AIDS. Their arguments, like those of the scientists you mention in your quote, have not been ignored, they have been countered. They are angry because despite their best efforts they can't persuade many of their peers of the validity of their views. I understand their frustration, I have known that feeling, but it doesn't mean the great majority of scientists who disagree with them are corrupt.

Also of interest to the current theme of the day:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-silver/occupy-wall-street-protests_b_991163.html

This is a right-left issue if there ever was one, and the potential to build an unstoppable movement is unprecedented. Just last weekend, liberal and Tea Party activists joined together for an unusual conference about the feasibility of a constitutional amendment to check undue corporate power in elections and government.


Don’t know if any of you are familiar with philosopher Slavoj Zizek (Rhubroma, maybe). He spoke at OWS:

"They tell you we are dreamers. The true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are. We are not dreamers. We are awakening from a dream which is tuning into a nightmare. We are not destroying anything. We are only witnessing how the system is destroying itself.

"We are not communists. If communism means the system which collapsed in 1990, remember that today those communists are the most efficient ruthless capitalists. In China today we have capitalism which is even more dynamic than your American capitalism but doesn’t need democracy. Which means when you criticize capitalism, don’t allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over.

"The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. The commons of nature. The commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. The commons of biogenetics. For this and only for this we should fight.

"Communism failed absolutely. But the problems of the commons are here. They are telling you we are not Americans here. But the conservative fundamentalists who claim they are really American have to be reminded of something. What is Christianity? It’s the Holy Spirit. What’s Holy Spirit? It’s an egalitarian community of believers who are linked by love for each other. And who only have their own freedom and responsibility to do it. In this sense the Holy Spirit is here now. And down there on Wall Street there are pagans who are worshipping blasphemous idols."

http://integralpostmetaphysicalnonduality.blogspot.com/2011/10/zizek-on-wall-street.html#more
 
Well, the majority if scientists will still tell you human pollution has been a factor. But as I pointed out before, one needs to look beyond that, and to potential solutions, or just change. Regardless of why it's happening, can anything be done? At what expense? What happens if we do nothing? Then what?

I have nothing against the protesters, as I noted. And yes, I agree they may educate themselves some, and cause some discussions. I just don't think it's going to cause any change to legislation. I really don't.
 
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Merckx index said:
I think, at least hope, that most people contributing to this thread are aware that studies of brain differences associated with political differences have become a hot subject of discussion. Here’s an interesting article summarizing some of the most recent work:

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more...ign=Feed:+EthicalTechnology+Ethical+Technolog





But…



This last quote is important. I think the general conclusions make a lot of sense for some kinds of liberals and some kinds of conservatives, namely, academic liberals and religious or social conservatives. I’m less certain about, say, blue collar/union liberals and economic conservatives. For example, I assume Scott is the latter type of conservative, but he seems just as comfortable with “informational complexity” and “flexible thinking” as the leftists on this forum. Whether one agrees with his views or not, they are often well thought out, at least IMO.

As an interesting sidelight, I have often wondered if there is any correlation—among cycling fans—of political views with views on Armstrong. One might think that a liberally-minded person would find it easier than a conservative to discard the widespread original view of LA as a clean rider making it sheerly on talent and drive as more and more evidence of doping accumulated. In fact, I have toyed with the idea of a poll on this question. I know Scott definitely does not fit that correlation—he is very “leftist” in his views on LA--but I don’t know about others here. Could someone like Polish be a liberal? Could someone like Race Radio be a conservative? Curious about this.

P.S. - Scott, yes there are some scientists who continue to deny AGW. Are you aware that there is almost no scientific idea that is universally accepted? For example, there are some very intelligent and well-informed experts in viral biology who continue to maintain that HIV is not the causative factor of AIDS. Their arguments, like those of the scientists you mention in your quote, have not been ignored, they have been countered. They are angry because despite their best efforts they can't persuade many of their peers of the validity of their views. I understand their frustration, I have known that feeling, but it doesn't mean the great majority of scientists who disagree with them are corrupt.


Really, really interesting post. Thanks MI.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Well, the majority if scientists will still tell you human pollution has been a factor. But as I pointed out before, one needs to look beyond that, and to potential solutions, or just change. Regardless of why it's happening, can anything be done? At what expense? What happens if we do nothing? Then what?

I have nothing against the protesters, as I noted. And yes, I agree they may educate themselves some, and cause some discussions. I just don't think it's going to cause any change to legislation. I really don't.


If it ever gets to the point at which the exaggerations of financial capitalism so encumber and debilitate society where A) there are massive credit loan defaults and/or B) the consumer market dries up, then there will probably be no change in the legislation as you say.

That is as long as the financiers can continue to work the system just enough in their favor, while caressing the masses just sufficiently to at least believe that can keep paying the bills and go on shopping as before, then their will be no incentive for the law makers to legislate differently. However, the sustainability of the system would seem to indicate, based on the simple laws of nature, that such isn't possible indefinitely.

Its been going on for 30 years now, they are pros at tweaking and massaging this system they put up.

However, it seems to me that the protesters have at least tolled the bell of a growing social discontent, especially among today's emerging youth.

If the political class doesn't pay head to these warning bells, and it appears that it does not, then they have no excuse when, if, we arrive at a system meltdown somewhere down the line. The myopia of the leadership and the greed and tenacity of the oligarchy, certainly isn't very encouraging in this regard.
 
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Anonymous

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Alpe d'Huez said:
Well, the majority if scientists will still tell you human pollution has been a factor. But as I pointed out before, one needs to look beyond that, and to potential solutions, or just change. Regardless of why it's happening, can anything be done? At what expense? What happens if we do nothing? Then what?

And the majority of politicians maintain they're not on the take.

I dunno Alpe.... if you follow the money on this one you have to hold your nose. There is way too much controversy to just say "it's a done deal".
 
May 23, 2010
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Merckx index said:
I think, at least hope, that most people contributing to this thread are aware that studies of brain differences associated with political differences have become a hot subject of discussion. Here’s an interesting article summarizing some of the most recent work:

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more...ign=Feed:+EthicalTechnology+Ethical+Technolog





But…



This last quote is important. I think the general conclusions make a lot of sense for some kinds of liberals and some kinds of conservatives, namely, academic liberals and religious or social conservatives. I’m less certain about, say, blue collar/union liberals and economic conservatives. For example, I assume Scott is the latter type of conservative, but he seems just as comfortable with “informational complexity” and “flexible thinking” as the leftists on this forum. Whether one agrees with his views or not, they are often well thought out, at least IMO.

As an interesting sidelight, I have often wondered if there is any correlation—among cycling fans—of political views with views on Armstrong. One might think that a liberally-minded person would find it easier than a conservative to discard the widespread original view of LA as a clean rider making it sheerly on talent and drive as more and more evidence of doping accumulated. In fact, I have toyed with the idea of a poll on this question. I know Scott definitely does not fit that correlation—he is very “leftist” in his views on LA--but I don’t know about others here. Could someone like Polish be a liberal? Could someone like Race Radio be a conservative? Curious about this.

P.S. - Scott, yes there are some scientists who continue to deny AGW. Are you aware that there is almost no scientific idea that is universally accepted? For example, there are some very intelligent and well-informed experts in viral biology who continue to maintain that HIV is not the causative factor of AIDS. Their arguments, like those of the scientists you mention in your quote, have not been ignored, they have been countered. They are angry because despite their best efforts they can't persuade many of their peers of the validity of their views. I understand their frustration, I have known that feeling, but it doesn't mean the great majority of scientists who disagree with them are corrupt.

Also of interest to the current theme of the day:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-silver/occupy-wall-street-protests_b_991163.html




Don’t know if any of you are familiar with philosopher Slavoj Zizek (Rhubroma, maybe). He spoke at OWS:



http://integralpostmetaphysicalnonduality.blogspot.com/2011/10/zizek-on-wall-street.html#more

or it is just a mixture of grandiosity and binge injuries.
http://youtu.be/41jcsTh60MMNSFW
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
[quote/]Christopher Horner

Richard Lindzen

Dr. Ivar Giaevers
That's the funniest thing you've posted yet, and I get the distinct feeling that you really have no idea who those guys are.

Quick question: how many of them are climatologists? How many of them work in a climatology-related field? I think you know the answer to that.

Sorry, I'm still chuckling over Christopher Horner. Dude, the guy's an attorney at a conservative think tank. He's never been anywhere near a lab and he wouldn't know a climate model if it bit him on the ***. Why didn't you throw Pat Michaels and Steve Milloy in there as well?

The science is not "in", in fact.
Yes, actually, it is very much in.
 
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VeloCity said:
That's the funniest thing you've posted yet, and I get the distinct feeling that you really have no idea who those guys are.

Quick question: how many of them are climatologists? How many of them work in a climatology-related field? I think you know the answer to that.

Sorry, I'm still chuckling over Christopher Horner. Dude, the guy's an attorney at a conservative think tank. He's never been anywhere near a lab and he wouldn't know a climate model if it bit him on the ***. Why didn't you throw Pat Michaels and Steve Milloy in there as well?

Yes, actually, it is very much in.

I see your decision is made. Good for you. I bet you consider yourself to be quite open-minded.

I'm still chuckling over Christopher Horner.

I'm admittedly going out on a limb here, but he's authored three books on the subject. He's not a climatologist and I'm guessing you are not either... You have not stated that you are an author, so... Trying to be objective here... I'm going to say that he's more qualified on the subject than you are. Sorry.

In between gasps for air can you explain the Nasa's Terra satellite data that shows major discrepancies (to the science is "in" crowd) in energy dissipation to space, both in quantity and timing?

Dr. Roy Spencer (certified idiot);

The evidence continues to mount that the IPCC models are too sensitive, and therefore produce too much global warming. If climate sensitivity is indeed considerably less than the IPCC claims it to be, then increasing CO2 alone can not explain recent global warming. The evidence presented here suggests that most of that warming might well have been caused by cloud changes associated with a natural mode of climate variability: the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

The IPCC has simply assumed that mechanisms of climate change like that addressed here do not exist. But that assumption is quite arbitrary and, as shown here, very likely wrong. My use of only PDO-forced variations in the Earth’s radiative energy budget to explain three-quarters of the global warming trend is no less ‘biased’ than the IPCC’s use of carbon dioxide to explain global warming without accounting for natural climate variability. If any IPCC scientists would like to dispute that claim, please e-mail me at roy.spencer (at) nsstc.uah.edu. (two months later, as of late December, 2008, I’ve still not received a response.)

It should be noted that the entire modern satellite era started in 1979, just 2 years after the PDO switched to its positive phase during the ‘Great Climate Shift’ of 1977. Thus, our satellite data records are necessarily biased toward conditions existing during the positive phase of the PDO, and might not correspond to ‘normal’ climate conditions. Indeed there might not be any such thing as ‘normal’ climate conditions.

If the PDO has recently entered into a new, negative phase, then we can expect that global average temperatures, which haven’t risen for at least seven years now, could actually start to fall in the coming years. The recovery of Arctic sea ice now underway might be an early sign that this is indeed happening. The next few years of satellite data might provide some very interesting insights into whether the Pacific Decadal Oscillation is indeed a major force in climate change.

http://www.drroyspencer.com/research-articles/global-warming-as-a-natural-response/

Even a cursory browse on Google clearly shows there to be much disagreement, so no, the science is not in.
 
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