Wout van Aert

[Nick2413]

If the data is legit, the 1-5min powers are nuts. Especially when combined with the rest of the power curve.

Based on Thomas' alleged 730w for a minute on TDF stage 4, I quickly back-of-the-enveloped WVA's one minute around 11+w/kg @75kg there. Given that Jumbo's attack lasted longer and was followed by a 10min solo TT at 60+kph, it probably was not a full all out 1min, but in or at least near the ballpark given these circumstances. Bonkers stuff, really.

I just happened upon that stage 4 freak show a couple days ago going through highlights since I was away during the first half of the tour and wow. That was another contender for biggest eyebrow raiser of the tour. Even more surprising is that once again it wasn’t even just WVA but half the Jumbo team, and they even dropped Roglic, who was still fully healthy at that point (I think?). Then WVA peeling even more time against the entire chasing peloton?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Its not out of the ordinary to pull such stuff out when youre one of the best punchers and at the same time the best rouleur in the peloton. Then you have lack of organization and tactics behind, and voila, you won the stage.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Its not out of the ordinary to pull such stuff out when youre one of the best punchers and at the same time the best rouleur in the peloton. Then you have lack of organization and tactics behind, and voila, you won the stage.

I think it was more tactics than lack of organization behind, as soon as Vingegaard and Yates dropped back the GC teams didn't have to chase anymore. If those two had stayed with Van Aert no way they would have stayed off until the finish.

 

[senna6541]

Wout's progression since he joined JV is suspicious at best - especially since covid. The climbing prowess is mysterious/supernatural. Go back to 2019 when he and MVDP hit the road together at 24 - with Wout putting more of a focus on it via his training/racing schedule. MVPD is vastly stronger - see races like RVV, AG, prior to Wout's TDF crash. But at JV Wout continues to "progress" from a guy who can't stay in his pedals up the final climb at SB at 23, to a freak dropping the likes of Pocagar on the final climb of a bizarre mountain stage where he attacked from the gun. Not buying JV.

 

[Ripper]

Wout's progression since he joined JV is suspicious at best - especially since covid. The climbing prowess is mysterious/supernatural. Go back to 2019 when he and MVDP hit the road together at 24 - with Wout putting more of a focus on it via his training/racing schedule. MVPD is vastly stronger - see races like RVV, AG, prior to Wout's TDF crash. But at JV Wout continues to "progress" from a guy who can't stay in his pedals up the final climb at SB at 23, to a freak dropping the likes of Pocagar on the final climb of a bizarre mountain stage where he attacked from the gun. Not buying JV.

Of course, it could be that Wout's now doing what van der Poel's been up to for a while. Done get me wrong, Wout's suspicious as anything, but Matthieu has had his share of ridiculous, just not as much recently.

 

[senna6541]

Of course, it could be that Wout's now doing what van der Poel's been up to for a while. Done get me wrong, Wout's suspicious as anything, but Matthieu has had his share of ridiculous, just not as much recently.

I don't see much suspicious about MVDP. He's pretty much done what everyone expected of him - at least anyone who followed him in CX. Some spectacular performances in classic type races - yes. Somehow transforming himself to a guy who can climb high mountains (w/o losing mass/power/ability to win TDF sprints) at such a level where he can drop the likes of Pocagar on the final climb -after attacking from the gun - on on one of the final stages of a TDF where he has barely had an easy day? No. Wout's level (and JV in general) at the TDF this year was completely unbelievable. Nothing MVDP has ever done seems remotely strange compared to this JV stuff.

 

[Ripper]

I don't see much suspicious about MVDP. He's pretty much done what everyone expected of him - at least anyone who followed him in CX. Some spectacular performances in classic type races - yes. Somehow transforming himself to a guy who can climb high mountains (w/o losing mass/power/ability to win TDF sprints) at such a level where he can drop the likes of Pocagar on the final climb -after attacking from the gun - on on one of the final stages of a TDF where he has barely had an easy day? No. Wout's level (and JV in general) at the TDF this year was completely unbelievable. Nothing MVDP has ever done seems remotely strange compared to this JV stuff.

Wout's been absurd, but I'm not arguing that. Nor am I saying this year it's even close (after all, I've called him WWtF).

I don't agree at all that van der Poel has not been ridiculous in his own way over the past few years. But no point in arguing that here.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't see much suspicious about MVDP. He's pretty much done what everyone expected of him - at least anyone who followed him in CX. Some spectacular performances in classic type races - yes. Somehow transforming himself to a guy who can climb high mountains (w/o losing mass/power/ability to win TDF sprints) at such a level where he can drop the likes of Pocagar on the final climb -after attacking from the gun - on on one of the final stages of a TDF where he has barely had an easy day? No. Wout's level (and JV in general) at the TDF this year was completely unbelievable. Nothing MVDP has ever done seems remotely strange compared to this JV stuff.

Van der Poel was getting creamed in mountain breakaways, like doing 5.3W/kg for 30 minutes and ***. Pretty weak sauce.

 

[Reemster]

Took on 4 roles today. Attacker, domestique 1, domestique 2 and sprinter.

I'm done

 

[Forever The Best]

Aaand peak continues. Just dominated in Koksijde, winning by 1:30 over MVDP.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Wout's been absurd, but I'm not arguing that. Nor am I saying this year it's even close (after all, I've called him WWtF).

I don't agree at all that van der Poel has not been ridiculous in his own way over the past few years. But no point in arguing that here.

It's hard not to assume that the son of Adri van der Racing Pigeon Pie would not have access to any and all methods of performance enhancement. But I have as hard a time with the idea that Pogacar, Roglic, Mohoric, Van Aert, Vingo, Pidcock etc etc etc have risen to the levels they are at because they have access to better methods than the rest as I do with the idea that we are looking at a new era of "cleaner" competition.

 

[Ripper]

It's hard not to assume that the son of Adri van der Racing Pigeon Pie would not have access to any and all methods of performance enhancement. But I have as hard a time with the idea that Pogacar, Roglic, Mohoric, Van Aert, Vingo, Pidcock etc etc etc have risen to the levels they are at because they have access to better methods than the rest as I do with the idea that we are looking at a new era of "cleaner" competition.

Then I think we agree. To add, not everyone's talents and innate capacities are the same, so doping does not make everyone equal or the same type of racer. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I do think some have different access to specialized resources, but that is a generalized issue across resources - it's not like everyone is on the same bike, wheels, etc.

 

[Volderke]

I don't check this part of the forum that often, but I miss some history, as in MvdP winning the junior world road race in Florence, while WvA only tried road racing seriously at the age of 23.
If I'm not mistaken, WvA did his first altitude training camp in 2019, and he benefitted enormeously from those altitude training camps, especially as he was training with Kruiswijk and Roglic.
If he does all of this just by training, I don't know. But the progression, from the Eroica to where he is now, can partly be attributed to his totally different approach in training.
MvdP had a much longer track record on the road, when WvA gave it a first (serious) try.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

If I'm not mistaken, WvA did his first altitude training camp in 2019

He did one in 2018

Van aert was also winning pro road races at 21 in 2016

 

[Volderke]

He did one in 2018

Van aert was also winning pro road races at 21 in 2016

My point is that for WvA, road racing was much more of a side job until 2018, than for MvdP, who combined everything but already put more focus on the road, at a younger age.

MvdP already had 2013, 2014 and 2015 seasons with around 3000K and 20 race days
WvA had 2013, 2014 and 2015 seasons with around 1500K and 10 race days.

So by the time WvA had a +3000K season and 20 racedays in 2016, MvdP already did that for 3 years (and became WC juniors on the road,...).
MvdP had more road pedigree at a younger age, and with this perspective, it makes sense that WvA had more potential for improvement on the road, at a later age, as he started later, than MvdP.

 

[Cassirer]

My point is that for WvA, road racing was much more of a side job until 2018, than for MvdP, who combined everything but already put more focus on the road, at a younger age.

MvdP already had 2013, 2014 and 2015 seasons with around 3000K and 20 race days
WvA had 2013, 2014 and 2015 seasons with around 1500K and 10 race days.

So by the time WvA had a +3000K season and 20 racedays in 2016, MvdP already did that for 3 years (and became WC juniors on the road,...).
MvdP had more road pedigree at a younger age, and with this perspective, it makes sense that WvA had more potential for improvement on the road, at a later age, as he started later, than MvdP.

It's a good observation. However it would explain wva overtaking mvdp in classics style racing after a while, but to me the mountainstuff is the real outlier. Its not like road is one discipline and cx another, but road is made of several disciplines itself and wout can do them all. Classics/TT/punchy work great together, add sprinting okay, add hilly terrain it becomes amazing but not yet absurd, but excelling on real mountains kinda tips it...

 

[Nick2413]

It's a good observation. However it would explain wva overtaking mvdp in classics style racing after a while, but to me the mountainstuff is the real outlier. Its not like road is one discipline and cx another, but road is made of several disciplines itself and wout can do them all. Classics/TT/punchy work great together, add sprinting okay, add hilly terrain it becomes amazing but not yet absurd, but excelling on real mountains kinda tips it...

Yeah, one of those qualities is not like the others. I find Wout a bit less believable all things considered.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Yes to all of above but apart from some incredible performances on TDF stages WVA hasn’t been that superior to his peers.

He has lost wheels several times in critical moments eg Strade Bianche, RVV, P-R, LBL etc so lots of other riders can absolutely beat him. He can do spectacular things but he is by no means a Eddy Merckx that is winning more or less every race he starts.

He may or may not be believable but if not then most of the top riders such as MVDP, Remco, Pogacar, Alaphilippe etc are also in that category (and maybe that’s the case albeit I like to think not).

 

[Barkintheeye]

Then I think we agree. To add, not everyone's talents and innate capacities are the same, so doping does not make everyone equal or the same type of racer. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I do think some have different access to specialized resources, but that is a generalized issue across resources - it's not like everyone is on the same bike, wheels, etc.

I have seen studies that indicate that “bigger” riders - heavier and with higher VO - will benefit more from PDEs than smaller, lighter riders. Something along the lines that you can more easily crank up a bigger engine than a small one. An example mentioned was Indurain that was climbing like the best and smallest riders of that era.

 

[F_Cance]

casually riding 90% of the stage in the wind

 

[ontheroad]

This guy is not normal.

 

[meat puppet]

Yeah. Just a casual ride.

 

[NFTtiddies]

 

[Netserk]

casually riding 90% of the stage in the wind

It was weird how much better he was than yesterday.

The more energy he spends, the stronger he gets.

 

[Ripper]

This guy is not normal.

Lol! Understated post of the year