Zirbel back to racing - gets time off for "help"

[Race Radio]

http://espn.go.com/blog/olympics/post/_/id/578/suspended-animation-ends-for-tom-zirbel

interview with Bonnie Ford

 

[SeventhSon]

It occurs to me there's a very good chance that Zirbel has told the truth from day one, and like USADA said in their letter of reduction, there's a good possibility that the positive was accidental. (That's as close as you'll ever get to an admission of a bad bust from them) Also, it's pretty clear from Zirbel's actions and public statements that he he does not tolerate dopers in the pro peloton--just like every pro contract demands-you train clean, you ride clean and you race clean or you're out.

 

[md2020]

Also, it's pretty clear from Zirbel's actions and public statements that he he does not tolerate dopers in the pro peloton--just like every pro contract demands-you train clean, you ride clean and you race clean or you're out.

If it was clear that he didn't tolerate dopers he would've tipped off the USADA before he got busted. I don't ever see that happening, at least from any top tier rider who plans on making a career from cycling.

From my perspective Zirbel was put in a bad situation which perhaps not 100% of his making. It will be interesting to see how his cooperation with the USADA affects his ability to get a ProTour (or World Tour) contract. I hope he does but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[fatandfast]

It occurs to me there's a very good chance that Zirbel has told the truth from day one, and like USADA said in their letter of reduction, there's a good possibility that the positive was accidental. (That's as close as you'll ever get to an admission of a bad bust from them) Also, it's pretty clear from Zirbel's actions and public statements that he he does not tolerate dopers in the pro peloton--just like every pro contract demands-you train clean, you ride clean and you race clean or you're out.

The agencies in charge need to have a policy of no matter how it got in your system it is a positive. The facts/information Tom was able to pass on to the USADA takes the last part of your post and makes it false. The fact that Zirbel knew users or sellers of banned substances should be considered when he says how clean he is..botanybay and md2020 both further state reasons Tom smells a bit fishy. Watched the shows Cops a few times, always amazed at the people in one room sleeping when the police smash in the door catching people in the act.The sleepers say they were not involved, they usually keep claiming their innocence while being loaded into the paddy wagon.

 

[python]

http://espn.go.com/blog/olympics/post/_/id/578/suspended-animation-ends-for-tom-zirbel

interview with Bonnie Ford

Ford: What's your opinion of the Contador case? He's also in a situation where he can't prove contamination.

Zirbel: He has to come up with concrete evidence. Otherwise he needs to be sanctioned. They have to be consistent.

Interesting.

Zirbel was sanctioned for not being able to come up with concrete evidence he expects of others who’ve been in a similar situation.

This is on the top of the chemistry student and the professional rider with several closed pals snatched for dhea…claiming never ever ever hearing about dhea…

am i the only one curious ?

otherwise kudos for talking.

 

[SeventhSon]

Neither found the concrete evidence, yet Zirbel was sanctioned and Contador isn't yet-He's simply pointing out the glaring inconsistency. Why would that answer make you curious?

Zirbel did not say he'd never ever ever heard about DHEA--What he said was "I didn't really know what it was and I had to google it" For example, everybody has heard of DNA, but very few people could give an actual passing-grade high school definition of it without a little research. DHEA's not something a college Chemistry class would focus on.

 

[python]

Neither found the concrete evidence, yet Zirbel was sanctioned and Contador isn't yet-He's simply pointing out the glaring inconsistency. Why would that answer make you curious?

Zirbel did not say he'd never ever ever heard about DHEA--What he said was "I didn't really know what it was and I had to google it" For example, everybody has heard of DNA, but very few people could give an actual passing-grade high school definition of it without a little research. DHEA's not something a college Chemistry class would focus on.

you can twist and turn however you want..we've been there. if zirbel expects people sanctioned because HE was, without refering to evidence, he's an angry little person. that's exactly how he came across. bs yourself. if zirbel did not use google following a chain of dhea cases in the us including hamilton, he's a bs master like you.

 

[SeventhSon]

I don't feel like I'm twisting and turning, and I don't feel like a bs master either. Zirbel doesn't really seem like an angry little person to people familiar with the guy. USADA has recently agreed with what the guy has said from the beginning. Are they bs masters too?

 

[SeventhSon]

How do you know exactly when he learned about the doping? Hypothetical drift here...If you were a teammate of Zirbel's and you new he was absolutely clean, would you dope in front of him? Would you try to hide it from him? Bear in mind that O'Bee was fired from Bissell 3 1/2 months BEFORE Zirbel received notification of his positive.

Yes he was put into a bad situation not 100% of his own doing. Yes-He DID test positive and yes he DID get fired from Garmin and yes he DID get sanctioned for over 16 months. So- he's paid his debt dearly for an accidental DHEA positive.

I hope to see him riding again soon too. Will he get offers? uh, yes.

 

[Oldman]

I don't feel like I'm twisting and turning, and I don't feel like a bs master either. Zirbel doesn't really seem like an angry little person to people familiar with the guy. USADA has recently agreed with what the guy has said from the beginning. Are they bs masters too?

USADA accepted testimony for a lesser sentence. Plea bargaining isn't innocence but it is productive for case building. That's the only conclusion I get from this.

 

[SeventhSon]

When USADA says in Zirbel's letter of reduction "his positive may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement" that has nothing to do with case building, but everything to do with guilt or (in this case ) innocence. That's what I was referring to.

 

[Oldman]

When USADA says in Zirbel's letter of reduction "his positive may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement" that has nothing to do with case building, but everything to do with guilt or (in this case ) innocence. That's what I was referring to.

Or it may be a file-filling justification for offering the plea bargain. Sorry to confuse legalize with moralise (I made that up).

 

[SeventhSon]

Don't be sorry..it's your niche and you can't help it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

When USADA says in Zirbel's letter of reduction "his positive may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement" that has nothing to do with case building, but everything to do with guilt or (in this case ) innocence. That's what I was referring to.

Careful there - the quote you provide is rather selective and its taken from Tom's blog:

"Fourth, the fact that the substance likely at issue in Mr. Zirbel's positive test, DHEA, likely does not continue to provide a performance enhancing benefit and the fact that Mr. Zirbel undertook substantial efforts to identify the source of his positive which may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement."

......Lots of "likely's" and "mays" there.

I have checked the USADA website and have reviewed the USADA statements made in Velonation and on CN and they do not address TZ positive.
While it is likely that he did not willfully cheat, it is up to TZ to show how he went positive.

 

[SeventhSon]

You're right. I was a bit selective there. I don't think you'll hold that against me.

When considering "likely's" and "mays" being located within a USADA notification of reduction--I think we both know very well what the jist of their message is. Reverse is not their favorite gear, it doesn't project authority and they seldom feel any obligation to use it. This makes their statement (may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement) sweet music to TZ's supporters who knew all along where this was going. To skeptics, it habitually won't be recognized or aknowledged.

Yes, it's always been up to TZ to show how he went positive, and it sounds like his efforts are ongoing. I believe TZ. What does USADA think? They don't really say much, but it's a sure thing they know more than they are saying, they know a lot more than we do, and they absolutely would not have worded their notification of reduction quite like that if they thought TZ was BS'ing them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You're right. I was a bit selective there. I don't think you'll hold that against me.

Actually I think your attempt to suggest what USADA say is more harmful to TZ's situation.

When considering "likely's" and "mays" being located within a USADA notification of reduction--I think we both know very well what the jist of their message is. Reverse is not their favorite gear, it doesn't project authority and they seldom feel any obligation to use it. This makes their statement (may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement) sweet music to TZ's supporters who knew all along where this was going. To skeptics, it habitually won't be recognized or aknowledged.

Reverse? What do they have to reverse?
It's simple - TZ has been caught with a banned substance in his sample.
He did not contest it - and even if he showed that it was accidentally ingested it shows that USADA were correct, ie that a banned substance was caught in TZ's sample.

Yes, it's always been up to TZ to show how he went positive, and it sounds like his efforts are ongoing. I believe TZ. What does USADA think? They don't really say much, but it's a sure thing they know more than they are saying, they know a lot more than we do, and they absolutely would not have worded their notification of reduction quite like that if they thought TZ was BS'ing them.

Again - USADA do not have to 'think' anything.
Also, you are cutting the 'quote' (which comes from TZ) -
"....and the fact that Mr. Zirbel undertook substantial efforts to identify the source of his positive which may have been caused by a contaminated nutritional supplement"...
USADA say TZ went to efforts to show that it was from a contaminated supplement, not that USADA say it was a contaminated supplement.

 

[SeventhSon]

Yes, yes Doc--the quote--ok-so, you tend to downplay it's impact? I get that. I'm saying that USADA included one very nice sentence in their notification of reduction. A sentence that you have quoted a couple times now. It is a sentence that USADA did not have obligation to include, but that some belief on their part "MAY" have led to it's inclusion. I think this is relevent and has meaning to the discussion of TZ's overall situation.

You overestimate the real-world impact of Clinic posts. We'll post back and forth sometimes, we'll wonder about each other's motivations, and then we'll wait for more news, then start over. Isn't that so?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, yes Doc--the quote--ok-so, you tend to downplay it's impact? I get that. I'm saying that USADA included one very nice sentence in their notification of reduction. A sentence that you have quoted a couple times now. It is a sentence that USADA did not have obligation to include, but that some belief on their part "MAY" have led to it's inclusion. I think this is relevent and has meaning to the discussion of TZ's overall situation.

You overestimate the real-world impact of Clinic posts. We'll post back and forth sometimes, we'll wonder about each other's motivations, and then we'll wait for more news, then start over. Isn't that so?

No - I don't overestimate the 'real world' impact of Clinic posts - but you appear to, as you are trying to enhance a small quote and suggest it says more than it means.

If you want to question my motives - then by all means ask questions.

The real world with TZ is he had a prohibited substance in his sample - there are provisions within the rules for a reduction of his sanction if he could show "No (significant) fault or negligence". He was unable to do so and was given the full 2 years, it is what it is.

 

[131313]

Let's face it, even for those who believe Tom, it's a difficult situation when you get to the ultimate question: so what? Should he have not been sanctioned at all?

From an emotional standpoint I think "of course not, he wasn't cheating!". But it's not that simple. He had a banned substance in his system. Everyone knows that, including him. I honestly don't know enough about the specific compound and the amounts (and neither does TZ, since the USADA didn't release the full results of his test, even to him) to say if there should or shouldn't be threshold limits for the compounds for which he tested positive. And ultimately, we can't just say "well, he's a nice guy and we believe him, so we'll give him a pass". So he had to be sanctioned if he couldn't prove the substance was unintentionally ingested.

I think TZ gets that, and always understood that. I think the bigger issue was that his penalty was the same (or more) than I guy who was mainlining CERA. I really don't have any answers here, but I agree that the penalties need to fit the action a little more than they do.

As far as Tygart and USADA, I actually do think Tygart *believes* TZ. But "belief" shouldn't be involved in dealing with someone's suspension, even if I wish it did in this particular instance. Because overall, the system can't be run on "belief" and who's a nice guy, or the whole thing breaks down. So TZ was forced to play the game. Unfortunately that's life. Sorry Toto, but you aren't in Iowa anymore, and life just sometimes gets dirty.

I think people have made up their minds either way on what they believe about TZ, and no amount of clinic posts are gonna change that. At this point what interests me the most is if Garmin stands up and offers him the contract they have offered before. I mean, he's publicly said he "believes Landis", has been pretty openly critical of dopers and has admitted to passing information along about others. In short, he doesn't really seem to fit the profile of the current squad of Garmin riders...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let's face it, even for those who believe Tom, it's a difficult situation when you get to the ultimate question: so what? Should he have not been sanctioned at all?

From an emotional standpoint I think "of course not, he wasn't cheating!". But it's not that simple. He had a banned substance in his system. Everyone knows that, including him. I honestly don't know enough about the specific compound and the amounts (and neither does TZ, since the USADA didn't release the full results of his test, even to him) to say if there should or shouldn't be threshold limits for the compounds for which he tested positive. And ultimately, we can't just say "well, he's a nice guy and we believe him, so we'll give him a pass". So he had to be sanctioned if he couldn't prove the substance was unintentionally ingested.

I think TZ gets that, and always understood that. I think the bigger issue was that his penalty was the same (or more) than I guy who was mainlining CERA. I really don't have any answers here, but I agree that the penalties need to fit the action a little more than they do.

As far as Tygart and USADA, I actually do think Tygart *believes* TZ. But "belief" shouldn't be involved in dealing with someone's suspension, even if I wish it did in this particular instance. Because overall, the system can't be run on "belief" and who's a nice guy, or the whole thing breaks down. So TZ was forced to play the game. Unfortunately that's life. Sorry Toto, but you aren't in Iowa anymore, and life just sometimes gets dirty.

I think people have made up their minds either way on what they believe about TZ, and no amount of clinic posts are gonna change that. At this point what interests me the most is if Garmin stands up and offers him the contract they have offered before. I mean, he's publicly said he "believes Landis", has been pretty openly critical of dopers and has admitted to passing information along about others. In short, he doesn't really seem to fit the profile of the current squad of Garmin riders...

Ding, ding.

Completely agree - and in particular about appropriate lengths of sanctions.

I have noticed a few posters and bloggers suggesting a 4 year ban for a first offence, while I feel many suggesting this are doing so out of frustration with recent events it should be remembered there is a difference between products and why they are taken.

In TZ's case it meant a 2 year ban - he did not provide USADA with information to show "no significant fault or negligence" and therefore has to accept his ban.

 

[SeventhSon]

'Enhance a quote"--I like that. May I use it?

Well, with over 4800 posts in under two years(is that accurate?) you must have some sort of impact on something. You can possibly find comfort in that. At any rate, USADA's not going to see a few Clinic posts, get their feelings hurt and give TZ a lifetime ban. My thoughts on the quote stand. Disappointed?

I didn't exactly say I questioned your motives. Are you enhancing a quote? But "by all means," if you feel the need to explain your motives, have at it. I must confess-I have not read 99% of your posts.

Yes we know about the sanction Doc. That's why we're here. It is obviously what you say it is and absolutely nothing more.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

'Enhance a quote"--I like that. May I use it?

Well, with over 4800 posts in under two years(is that accurate?) you must have some sort of impact on something. You can possibly find comfort in that. At any rate, USADA's not going to see a few Clinic posts, get their feelings hurt and give TZ a lifetime ban. My thoughts on the quote stand. Disappointed?

I didn't exactly say I questioned your motives. Are you enhancing a quote? But "by all means," if you feel the need to explain your motives, have at it. I must confess-I have not read 99% of your posts.

Yes we know about the sanction Doc. That's why we're here. It is obviously what you say it is and absolutely nothing more.

Ok, I see you have moved on to making personal snipes.

Its' a pity you didn't read some of my 4800 posts, as you would see I have been consistent on doping (& anti-doping) on every rider.

If you feel the Clinic is of such little value then why sign up and defend just one rider?
Have you seen this letter that USADA sent Tom or are you just quoting his blog?

 

[Oldman]

'Enhance a quote"--I like that. May I use it?

Well, with over 4800 posts in under two years(is that accurate?) you must have some sort of impact on something. You can possibly find comfort in that. At any rate, USADA's not going to see a few Clinic posts, get their feelings hurt and give TZ a lifetime ban. My thoughts on the quote stand. Disappointed?

I didn't exactly say I questioned your motives. Are you enhancing a quote? But "by all means," if you feel the need to explain your motives, have at it. I must confess-I have not read 99% of your posts.

Yes we know about the sanction Doc. That's why we're here. It is obviously what you say it is and absolutely nothing more.

This was a limited subject for discussion in the first place. Why make it into what it's not-a vindication?

 

[SeventhSon]

Oh Doc, when you punish me so, I had to release the snipes. I'm sure you've endured worse.

No, thanks.

I didn't say that-another enhanced quote?

Cuz he's my favorite rider.

No, I'm quoting TZ's blog just like you.

There. I think that was sorta diet-snipe.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Oh Doc, when you punish me so, I had to release the snipes. I'm sure you've endured worse.

No, thanks.

I didn't say that-another enhanced quote?

Cuz he's my favorite rider.

No, I'm quoting TZ's blog just like you.

There. I think that was sorta diet-snipe.

Actually, I don't care about the personal snipes but it is what posters do when their argument is weak.

It is very simple - TZ got caught for a banned substance in his sample - and just so you don't complain that I enhanced something you said...

It occurs to me there's a very good chance that Zirbel has told the truth from day one, and like USADA said in their letter of reduction, there's a good possibility that the positive was accidental. (That's as close as you'll ever get to an admission of a bad bust from them) Also, it's pretty clear from Zirbel's actions and public statements that he he does not tolerate dopers in the pro peloton--just like every pro contract demands-you train clean, you ride clean and you race clean or you're out.

..... there was no 'bad bust' from USADA.
Tom appears to have accepted that, my advice for you would be to do the same.