Zirbel back to racing - gets time off for "help"

[Race Radio]

I have heard that he already has a team and should be racing soon.

 

[BroDeal]

So who are the best candidates for who he ratted out? They are most likely teammates from the last year or two before he was caught.

 

[Roland Rat]

Did... did he just admit his assistance was so minor you could hardly justify reducing someone's sentence because of it? Maybe Di Luca's assistance amounted to giving someone Elisa Basso's phone number.

I think the whole of Italy and half of America has Elisa Basso's phone number.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

In the WADA code it has a 'comment' section - to show how different rules should be interpreted.

Rule 10.5.3 deals with "Substantial Assistance in Discovering or Establishing Anti-Doping Rule Violations" - Page 58 of WADA code.

One interesting point in the comments :

[Comment to Article 10.5.3: The
cooperation of Athletes, Athlete
Support Personnel and other Persons
who acknowledge their mistakes
and are willing to bring other antidoping rule violations to light is
important to clean sport.
Factors to be considered in assessing
the importance of the Substantial
Assistance would include, for
example, the number of individuals
implicated, the status of those
individuals in the sport, whether a
scheme involving Trafficking under
Article 2.7 or administration under ........

 

[frenchfry]

I think the whole of Italy and half of America has Elisa Basso's phone number.

Novitzky has hidden a microphone in her pillow.

 

[131313]

It is nice how these riders who are completely clean, riders who have been outrageously and wrongly accused, victims of a travesty of justice, just happen to know enough to get a sentence reduction.

I've never doped, and yet I've provided enough information to the USADA that if I were serving a suspension, I probably would have had it reduced.

Welcome to professional cycling.

 

[131313]

I'm not going to waste a bunch of breath defending Zirbel. Frankly, he always has some silly haircut and I really don't like guys who are that much more talented than I am. That said, I firmly believe has wasn't doping. I really don't know him that well, but I do know him better than most on here so I'll give my thoughts.

-"unintentional cheating" is pretty much an oxymoron. If you unintentionally ingest something (even IF it has a performance-enhancing advantage), that's not cheating, that's doping. If you don't understand that, I really can't be bothered to explain it. That said, the substance which he supposedly ingested is of no real benefit. I say supposedly since even the USADA hasn't been that forthcoming to him about the exact results of his test

-"why didn't he just fight the charge if he was innocent?" Well, he, unlike some other domestic pro, he didn't have a rich daddy to throw 20K to Howard Jacobs to make it go away. Secondly, to what gain? He'd have been fighting it for 12-16 months anyway, and he it's pretty hard to fight it when you aren't exactly sure you know where the contamination came from. Sure, he could have concocted some story about a magical cow, but he seemingly didn't spend a lot of time planning on covering his tracks.

-"his public response is lame". This is the part I really don't get. His response reads like a guy who figured that since he wasn't actually doping, he didn't really have anything to worry about. Then a brick of reality hit him upside the head. I appreciate the fact that he isn't giving out the lame canned responses, and is pretty upfront about the reality of a system that is still pretty eff'ed up. His is pretty much my worst nightmare, and to me he's handled it better than I would have.

I'm not imploring anyone to "believe" Tom. People are going to believe what they're going to believe. Most in the domestic peloton who know him to some degree or another believe Tom was clean. Most on this forum I'm sure believe he was doping. I don't think anything is going to change that. Me, I'll be glad to see him back in the bunch (for a short while), though I hope he gets to Europe soon so I don't have to look at that stupid hair.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I also think TZ is and always was clean. His responses in the press are not the "pre-fabbed' statements made by those who have lawyers and such preparing a media response.

If you saw someone doing something illegal , especially if you worked with them, wouldn't you also do the right thing and provide information? I don't understand that 'silence' is an honorable attribute....I wouldn't call it 'ratting' someone out. What ever happened to personal integrity? ...it's lame to suggest that he 'probably' was doping and is a hypocrite.....
Grow up. Do not automatically bad-mouth everyone....sometimes you may be wrong.

I know of him and have met him, not that that should explain for all of you why or why not I think he's clean.
We live in the same town now and we were born in the same town....so I'm a big fan and am happy to see him get a chance to race again.

Best of luck to you Tom....

 

[Oldman]

I also think TZ is and always was clean. His responses in the press are not the "pre-fabbed' statements made by those who have lawyers and such preparing a media response.

If you saw someone doing something illegal , especially if you worked with them, wouldn't you also do the right thing and provide information? I don't understand that 'silence' is an honorable attribute....I wouldn't call it 'ratting' someone out. What ever happened to personal integrity? ...it's lame to suggest that he 'probably' was doping and is a hypocrite.....
Grow up. Do not automatically bad-mouth everyone....sometimes you may be wrong.

I know of him and have met him, not that that should explain for all of you why or why not I think he's clean.
We live in the same town now and we were born in the same town....so I'm a big fan and am happy to see him get a chance to race again.

Best of luck to you Tom....

While I appreciate the local loyalty none of us can be sure what sportsman do to be competitive.
What most people found difficult to believe was his acknowledged cooperation and admission of "guilt" so he could pursue continued participation and the posture of still being innocent. He did part of the "right thing" but should spare us the qualifications.

 

[mewmewmew13]

While I appreciate the local loyalty none of us can be sure what sportsman do to be competitive.
What most people found difficult to believe was his acknowledged cooperation and admission of "guilt" so he could pursue continued participation and the posture of still being innocent. He did part of the "right thing" but should spare us the qualifications.

You are correct, Oldman. In a larger sense, none of us can be sure what any of us do to be competitive, and that applies to honesty in business dealings as well as in day to day life. Our own personal truth is all we have in the end isn't it?

I have my reasons for believing TZ's innocence.

As for his 'admission of guilt', what was he supposed to do? If you don't have the $$ for attorneys not to mention wanting to get on with your life, he really had no more options than to just accept what was being rammed down his throat and move on. I actually think what he is basically saying was that he was in no way being 'heroic' but just left without a better way out....

For example, when I received a speeding ticket and had to show up in court, the judge offered me a plea-bargain to a lesser charge to save the striking of points from my license. Did I really commit the alternate crime??--no. But stuck between a rock and a hard one, I took the option.

 

[Oldman]

You are correct, Oldman. In a larger sense, none of us can be sure what any of us do to be competitive, and that applies to honesty in business dealings as well as in day to day life. Our own personal truth is all we have in the end isn't it?

I have my reasons for believing TZ's innocence.

As for his 'admission of guilt', what was he supposed to do? If you don't have the $$ for attorneys not to mention wanting to get on with your life, he really had no more options than to just accept what was being rammed down his throat and move on. I actually think what he is basically saying was that he was in no way being 'heroic' but just left without a better way out....

For example, when I received a speeding ticket and had to show up in court, the judge offered me a plea-bargain to a lesser charge to save the striking of points from my license. Did I really commit the alternate crime??--no. But stuck between a rock and a hard one, I took the option.

Fair enough but you didn't offer that as a character defense to continue your highly-visible job. We're losing sight of more important things, though; things seem to be moving painfully toward some truth in these matters. If Zirbel helped, great.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You are correct, Oldman. In a larger sense, none of us can be sure what any of us do to be competitive, and that applies to honesty in business dealings as well as in day to day life. Our own personal truth is all we have in the end isn't it?

I have my reasons for believing TZ's innocence.

As for his 'admission of guilt', what was he supposed to do? If you don't have the $$ for attorneys not to mention wanting to get on with your life, he really had no more options than to just accept what was being rammed down his throat and move on. I actually think what he is basically saying was that he was in no way being 'heroic' but just left without a better way out....

For example, when I received a speeding ticket and had to show up in court, the judge offered me a plea-bargain to a lesser charge to save the striking of points from my license. Did I really commit the alternate crime??--no. But stuck between a rock and a hard one, I took the option.

Firstly - I have no idea if TZ doped intentionally or not - but what I do know is he was positive for a banned substance.

I have heard great things about TZ - he sounds like a highly respected, nice popular guy, but doping or anti-doping is not a popularity contest, so his persona is irrelevant.

How would an innocent person react if they get notification that they have returned a positive? Again, I don't know - but I would expect 1 of 2 things to happen, either you would defend yourself vigorously** or you would admit defeat and be extremely bitter at the injustice.

**I know it has been argued that TZ could not afford a defense, however as he is obviously very popular and a lot of people believe him I believe he could have people help contribute to a defense.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Firstly - I have no idea if TZ doped intentionally or not - but what I do know is he was positive for a banned substance.

I have heard great things about TZ - he sounds like a highly respected, nice popular guy, but doping or anti-doping is not a popularity contest, so his persona is irrelevant.

How would an innocent person react if they get notification that they have returned a positive? Again, I don't know - but I would expect 1 of 2 things to happen, either you would defend yourself vigorously** or you would admit defeat and be extremely bitter at the injustice.

**I know it has been argued that TZ could not afford a defense, however as he is obviously very popular and a lot of people believe him I believe he could have people help contribute to a defense.

oh ya, like the FFF....

I agree, popular or not, nice or not, should not cloud the truth, but it does seem to affect people's outspoken judgement. Look at one particular larger-than-life rider---if asked, I certainly weigh in my judgement on the basis of I think he is 'not such a great human being' (among many other reasons..)

...and you're right it was a banned substance...so that is a fact.
Nothing simple here...or in our sport of cycling. But I guess I still love cycling, am a fan, and am optimistic....(shrug)

 

[Rip:30]

Dude weighs 200 lbs (91 kg) and can out climb most domestic US pros.

Turned pro around age 30.

 

[skidmark]

Why do people think it's impossible for him to know information about doping in the peloton if he's not doping himself? Aside from the fact that he tested positive, which is probably much more important in assessing his guilt, I don't understand this line of reasoning. It seems like you would have to be an idiot NOT to know something about doping in the peloton, which is one reason everyone here makes fun of the PR responses of 'I did it by myself' etc. Yet those same people laugh when Zirbel says the opposite. I just don't get it.

 

[BotanyBay]

Sorry guys, been a bit busy lately.

1) Tom, next time you know a bunch of shiite about other people's doping behavior, don't feel the need to wait until you're personally accused of wrongdoing to be forthcoming with said shiite.

2) Am I the only one that says this smells fishy? So the guy shares data and gives it to USADA, and suddenly in THIS particular case, they wipe his slate clean and give him a pat on the back? I'd rather see the innocent exonerated through innocence rather than mutual back scratching.

3) Need details. Don't drop this innocuous explanation and then just expect me to get back to life like a good 'ol Stepford wife. Someone has some 'splaining to do.

 

[131313]

Firstly - I have no idea if TZ doped intentionally or not - but what I do know is he was positive for a banned substance.

I have heard great things about TZ - he sounds like a highly respected, nice popular guy, but doping or anti-doping is not a popularity contest, so his persona is irrelevant.

I agree, completely. Chris Sheppard seemed like a great guy, but he was willing to cheat. One of my own teammates is one of the biggest a holes in the peloton, yet I firmly believe he's clean. He's just not a very nice guy.

How would an innocent person react if they get notification that they have returned a positive? Again, I don't know - but I would expect 1 of 2 things to happen, either you would defend yourself vigorously** or you would admit defeat and be extremely bitter at the injustice.

**I know it has been argued that TZ could not afford a defense, however as he is obviously very popular and a lot of people believe him I believe he could have people help contribute to a defense.

Here's where I believe you're off base. That may be "how you'd expect someone to react", but unless you're actually in that situation, you really don't know, do you?

First off, you're correct, he doesn't have the means to cough up 20K to Jacobs for his defense. Frankly, not many people do unless they're high-profile riders. Yeah, he probably could have had some people contribute to his defense, or he could have used some pro-bono council provided by the USADA (and let's face it; with no offense to anyone generally you get the best representation you can afford). But to what end? At a certain point, some people are going to simply look at it pragmatically and think "it's not worth it".

Clearing his name? I think whatever the outcome, few people's minds would really change. The average clinic participant would just say "another one beats the rap", the general public would probably be split, and those who know him would just have their beliefs confirmed.

Reducing his suspension? Given the strict liability policy, and TZ's relative position in the sport, who knows if he even would have had a reduction in his suspension? Even if there were, I believe it would have been one year.

Lastly, how do you propose he would have fought it? Do you really think you'd have sports drinks laying around that you had 3 months ago? I'm sure this is an avenue he explored. If you didn't think you had a reasonable chance of "proving your innocence, would you still fight it? It's easy to say "hell yeah!". I think it's a little different when you're in that situation.

From what I know, he seemed pretty disillusioned with the whole thing, and was basically in the mindset of "screw it". I don't know if I'd have taken the same path, but I really can't fault or question the path he chose (or didn't choose). I think it's a lot easier on the outside looking in.

My $.02.

 

[D-Queued]

I agree, completely. Chris Sheppard seemed like a great guy, but he was willing to cheat. One of my own teammates is one of the biggest a holes in the peloton, yet I firmly believe he's clean. He's just not a very nice guy.

...

Apparently EPO makes you happy and provides on overwhelming feeling of serenity and invincibility.

What do they always say when they are busted? I am calm.

Your buddy? Roid rage.

When he spews the line 'Fzk Everybody', be careful he isn't riding a Harley up the next climb.

Dave.

 

[131313]

Sorry guys, been a bit busy lately.

1) Tom, next time you know a bunch of shiite about other people's doping behavior, don't feel the need to wait until you're personally accused of wrongdoing to be forthcoming with said shiite.

You can read about the timeline of what he learned and when on his blog, which should address this a little better

2) Am I the only one that says this smells fishy? So the guy shares data and gives it to USADA, and suddenly in THIS particular case, they wipe his slate clean and give him a pat on the back? I'd rather see the innocent exonerated through innocence rather than mutual back scratching.

You're certainly not alone. Read TZ's comments, and you'll see he pretty much feels the same way about it that you do.

http://tomzirbel.blogspot.com/2010/10/justice.html

3) Need details. Don't drop this innocuous explanation and then just expect me to get back to life like a good 'ol Stepford wife. Someone has some 'splaining to do.

This I can tell you firsthand. When you talk to the USADA about stuff like this, one condition is that you don't blab about it. And ultimately, I understand. They're trying to make a case against a rider, not try guys in the court of public opinion. Personally, I believe that even the Kirk O'Bees and Kayle Legrandes of the world deserve due process.

 

[Maxiton]

Novitzky has hidden a microphone in her pillow.

That's not her pillow.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

<snipped to point>


Here's where I believe you're off base. That may be "how you'd expect someone to react", but unless you're actually in that situation, you really don't know, do you?

First off, you're correct, he doesn't have the means to cough up 20K to Jacobs for his defense. Frankly, not many people do unless they're high-profile riders. Yeah, he probably could have had some people contribute to his defense, or he could have used some pro-bono council provided by the USADA (and let's face it; with no offense to anyone generally you get the best representation you can afford). But to what end? At a certain point, some people are going to simply look at it pragmatically and think "it's not worth it".

Clearing his name? I think whatever the outcome, few people's minds would really change. The average clinic participant would just say "another one beats the rap", the general public would probably be split, and those who know him would just have their beliefs confirmed.

Reducing his suspension? Given the strict liability policy, and TZ's relative position in the sport, who knows if he even would have had a reduction in his suspension? Even if there were, I believe it would have been one year.

Lastly, how do you propose he would have fought it? Do you really think you'd have sports drinks laying around that you had 3 months ago? I'm sure this is an avenue he explored. If you didn't think you had a reasonable chance of "proving your innocence, would you still fight it? It's easy to say "hell yeah!". I think it's a little different when you're in that situation.

From what I know, he seemed pretty disillusioned with the whole thing, and was basically in the mindset of "screw it". I don't know if I'd have taken the same path, but I really can't fault or question the path he chose (or didn't choose). I think it's a lot easier on the outside looking in.

My $.02.

Again - by in large I do agree with - and I will also say your $.02 is worth a lot more than most peoples!

I agree it could be difficult to find the product but TZ could have gotten a reduced sentence had he contested it - yes, that would probably have resulted in a 1 year suspension but at least it would be publicly acknowledged that he bore "no significant fault" for ingesting the PED.

Also - one big variance from your own path, you have passed on info to USADA when you had something to pass on.
It may be just unfortunate timing, but had TZ no info to pass on before now?

 

[MacRoadie]

My one question is:

If Zirbel had this information, considered by USADA to be valuable enough to warrant a reduction in his suspension, would he have ever shared it with anyone had his positive not come up?

 

[ergmonkey]

My one question is:

If Zirbel had this information, considered by USADA to be valuable enough to warrant a reduction in his suspension, would he have ever shared it with anyone had his positive not come up?

That's definitely one fair question.

Another fair question is whether Zirbel really means what he says--that it makes no sense to provide incentives for accused riders to hand over information about (other) (potential) dopers. Talk about an ironic defense of Omerta from a guy who spilled the beans.

 

[MacRoadie]

That's definitely one fair question.

Another fair question is whether Zirbel really means what he says--that it makes no sense to provide incentives for accused riders to hand over information about (other) (potential) dopers. Talk about an ironic defense of Omerta from a guy who spilled the beans.

Zirbel stated:

“Well, my ‘substantial assistance’ amounted to me putting USADA in touch with a person who had incriminating knowledge about an athlete who USADA was building a case against. And I actually did this in two separate cases that USADA was or is pursuing.”

So it goes beyond Tom ratting out another cyclist. He passed on information about a third party that had incriminating information. He then goes on to say he actually did this on two separate cases.

Does that mean this same individual has credible knowledge about two dopers, or does Tom know two separate individuals who have credible information about two separate dopers?

If it's the same individual, then it starts sounding more and more like the beginning of a doping ring, or just a really odd coincidence that one person can provide USADA with meaningful information in two separate doping cases.

If it was two separate individuals, then Tom's group of acquaintances certainly bears some criticism. It's one thing to be aware of guys on your team or in the peloton on the hot sauce, but it becomes something else if you are aware of people, in addition to the dopers, who know enough about these two cases that USADA is willing to barter for their information.

I'm still not saying Zirbel is a doper, I'm just really curious, with all this awareness of doping around him, including not only the dopers but third parties who USADA deems significant enough to offer Zirbel a suspension reduction, what it would have taken in the absence of the positive, for Tom to share this information.

One final thing. Keep in mind that Zirbel had to know the two riders under investigation were dopers, otherwise he wouldn't have knowledge of these third parties he shared with USADA.

 

[lacticacid]

Zirbel stated:



One final thing. Keep in mind that Zirbel had to know the two riders under investigation were dopers, otherwise he wouldn't have knowledge of these third parties he shared with USADA.

Not necessarily, someone could have seen his blog where he commented about wishing he knew something he could give to USADA. Unlikely, but still possible.