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Zirbel confirms B sample is also positive

ravens

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craig1985 said:
Zirbel confirms B sample is also positive | Cyclingnews.com

Don't worry Tom, in two years time you can get a contract with Michael Ball and get screwed around half a dozen times.

EDIT: That was a very honest statement he gave.

At this point in the ongoing cat and mouse games, it surprises me when dopers get caught since they are pretty aware (seems to me) of what they need to do to beat the tests.

What did he do wrong? (as far as failing to beat the test, I mean, not 'what's wrong with doping?')
 
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He didn't say anything new in this interview. The dog ate my homework excuse is not going to fly or any other out of nowhere defense. Yes he needs a lawyer but also should talk to any low level PR firm or Grad Student in public relations. The down side of mounting a defense that makes a @30 yo pro cyclist with a working knowledge of the sport,chemistry, and sports phys will not make him the victim but a bigger ahole than he is right now. Shut up and keep training.
 
Goes to show that they are all at it. No exceptions.
That's why I find it odd when certain riders get the welcome back routine, while others get ridiculed by all and sundry.
Seems to me contrition has become an obligatory arm of Omerta.
Fail to say sorry, at your peril.
 

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Mellow Velo said:
Goes to show that they are all at it. No exceptions.
That's why I find it odd when certain riders get the welcome back routine, while others get ridiculed by all and sundry.
Seems to me contrition has become an obligatory arm of Omerta.
Fail to say sorry, at your peril.

Floyd never got that memo.
 
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fatandfast said:
He didn't say anything new in this interview. The dog ate my homework excuse is not going to fly or any other out of nowhere defense. Yes he needs a lawyer but also should talk to any low level PR firm or Grad Student in public relations. The down side of mounting a defense that makes a @30 yo pro cyclist with a working knowledge of the sport,chemistry, and sports phys will not make him the victim but a bigger ahole than he is right now. Shut up and keep training.

I was at a friend's place for dinner last night and saw my first hard copy of Velonews in awhile. Inside was a total crush piece from the editor in support of Zirbel. Unbelievable what passes for journalism.
 
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fatandfast said:
He didn't say anything new in this interview. The dog ate my homework excuse is not going to fly or any other out of nowhere defense. Yes he needs a lawyer but also should talk to any low level PR firm or Grad Student in public relations. The down side of mounting a defense that makes a @30 yo pro cyclist with a working knowledge of the sport,chemistry, and sports phys will not make him the victim but a bigger ahole than he is right now. Shut up and keep training.


It wasn't an interview - cyclingnews got the quotes from his blog.
 
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Oldman said:
I was at a friend's place for dinner last night and saw my first hard copy of Velonews in awhile. Inside was a total crush piece from the editor in support of Zirbel. Unbelievable what passes for journalism.
Those guys are way too close to their sources. They go for rides with them, eat out with them, party, share the celebrity... I did some work for Velonews, worked with their journalists and editors as a photographer and a reporter and found their relationships too cozy.

The magazine/web site isn't terrible, but take it with a grain of salt... often.
 
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HelmutRoole said:
Those guys are way too close to their sources. They go for rides with them, eat out with them, party, share the celebrity... I did some work for Velonews, worked with their journalists and editors as a photographer and a reporter and found their relationships too cozy.

The magazine/web site isn't terrible, but take it with a grain of salt... often.

It is probably difficult to maintain journalist detachment and still be available enough to get reliable information. This piece was front and center in the issue and void of research. Perhaps a little too close to the subject.
 

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A discussion on Tom Zirbels acceptance of his 2 year ban and retirement has prompted discussion in the General News thread.

However as the discussion has progressed in to a doping discussion I think it is time to move the discussion here to the Clinic.

Here is a link to the thread(where discussion started again yesterday) in the General News section.


Originally posted in the General News thread.
SeventhSon said:
USADA waited over 10 weeks to notify Tom of the positive A test. After 10 weeks, the guilty supplement(s) were long gone. Tom had at least two tests since then that came back clean.
The lab test numbers from the A and B results were done months apart, and came out surprisingly diverse, even though they came from the very same urine sample. After these differences were noted, testing was moved from Utah to UCLA, and done again.
Weeks and weeks passed.
Something is not quite right at the lab.
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom declined both offers. USADA does not like to hear "no"
USADA surprised no one with a two year suspension for Zirbel.
Yes, Tom tested positive for DHEA on Aug 29, but he tested clean 8 days prior and again 3 days after. Tested again in Switzerland Sept 25--clean there too.
Although Tom would not have been able to provide anybody with a precise definition of what DHEA was at that time, he first Googled it, then did more intense research to learn about it.
Synthetic DHEA is a common-but banned substance, and it is very easy to detect in careful testing--remember, this urine sample was given at Greenville SC during the US National Time Trial Championships--Tom knew for certain that(unless he crashed or flatted) he was going to be tested that day. Many experts say DHEA has no benefit anyway. And as a masking agent-it's a red flag.
In the time trial, Tom came in with a dissappointed 2nd place finish, so was sure to be tested right away. He immediately complied with the testers.
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had dificulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.
Tom Zirbel had been under signed contract since MARCH 2009 to ride for Garmin Slipstream in 2010. Garmin has a famous, very well known policy of 100% zero tolerance for doping. On the verge of his dreams coming true, and joining a huge continental team like Garmin, would anybody knowingly do DHEA at this point? Do you think Vaughters hires crazy people? Chances are less than zero, pal. No, Tom did not dope. Never has.
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.
USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying. They are not interested in guilt or innocence, just convictions and renewing their government funding. Ask Zach Lund of the U.S.Olympic Skeleton team. Travis Tygart (Mr USADA)even admits that Lund probably didn't cheat, but WADA / USADA suspended him anyway-for using Rogaine to fight baldness.
Try getting answers from USADA about anything.
I'm sure that a number of folks will regard what I'm saying as unbelieveable, and others had their minds made up for a guilty verdict long ago. I can't help those people. That's too bad, cuz this is the straight truth. Thanks for reading.
 

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Originaly posted in the General news thread.
SeventhSon said:
USADA waited over 10 weeks to notify Tom of the positive A test. After 10 weeks, the guilty supplement(s) were long gone. Tom had at least two tests since then that came back clean.
The lab test numbers from the A and B results were done months apart, and came out surprisingly diverse, even though they came from the very same urine sample. After these differences were noted, testing was moved from Utah to UCLA, and done again.
Weeks and weeks passed.
Something is not quite right at the lab.
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom declined both offers. USADA does not like to hear "no"
USADA surprised no one with a two year suspension for Zirbel.
Yes, Tom tested positive for DHEA on Aug 29, but he tested clean 8 days prior and again 3 days after. Tested again in Switzerland Sept 25--clean there too.
Although Tom would not have been able to provide anybody with a precise definition of what DHEA was at that time, he first Googled it, then did more intense research to learn about it.
Synthetic DHEA is a common-but banned substance, and it is very easy to detect in careful testing--remember, this urine sample was given at Greenville SC during the US National Time Trial Championships--Tom knew for certain that(unless he crashed or flatted) he was going to be tested that day. Many experts say DHEA has no benefit anyway. And as a masking agent-it's a red flag.
In the time trial, Tom came in with a dissappointed 2nd place finish, so was sure to be tested right away. He immediately complied with the testers.
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had dificulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.
Tom Zirbel had been under signed contract since MARCH 2009 to ride for Garmin Slipstream in 2010. Garmin has a famous, very well known policy of 100% zero tolerance for doping. On the verge of his dreams coming true, and joining a huge continental team like Garmin, would anybody knowingly do DHEA at this point? Do you think Vaughters hires crazy people? Chances are less than zero, pal. No, Tom did not dope. Never has.
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.
USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying. They are not interested in guilt or innocence, just convictions and renewing their government funding. Ask Zach Lund of the U.S.Olympic Skeleton team. Travis Tygart (Mr USADA)even admits that Lund probably didn't cheat, but WADA / USADA suspended him anyway-for using Rogaine to fight baldness.
Try getting answers from USADA about anything.
I'm sure that a number of folks will regard what I'm saying as unbelieveable, and others had their minds made up for a guilty verdict long ago. I can't help those people. That's too bad, cuz this is the straight truth. Thanks for reading.
 

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Obviously you are a friend/fan/acquaintance of Tom.
I have no problem with that - and by all accounts I have heard he is a popular and well thought of person.

However in continuing to highlight this case you may create more harm for him.
SeventhSon said:
USADA waited over 10 weeks to notify Tom of the positive A test. After 10 weeks, the guilty supplement(s) were long gone. Tom had at least two tests since then that came back clean.
USADA "waited"?? This is not a pregnancy test - samples are submitted to a battery of tests for various products. In the second quarter of 2009 the USADA conducted 2581 tests.

SeventhSon said:
The lab test numbers from the A and B results were done months apart, and came out surprisingly diverse, even though they came from the very same urine sample. After these differences were noted, testing was moved from Utah to UCLA, and done again.
Weeks and weeks passed.
Something is not quite right at the lab.
The USADA will only process a B sample if requested to do so by the athlete.
This is what Tom said about the B test... "The lab was very professional and everything was fine"
SeventhSon said:
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "confess"
USADA offered Tom a reduced suspension if he'd "rat"
Tom declined both offers. USADA does not like to hear "no"
USADA surprised no one with a two year suspension for Zirbel.
"Offered"?? Is this something new - only "offered" to Tom? USADA work within the WADA CODE- admissions of guilt and/or co-operating can lead to a reduction in a 2 year ban.
SeventhSon said:
Yes, Tom tested positive for DHEA on Aug 29, but he tested clean 8 days prior and again 3 days after. Tested again in Switzerland Sept 25--clean there too.
Although Tom would not have been able to provide anybody with a precise definition of what DHEA was at that time, he first Googled it, then did more intense research to learn about it.
Synthetic DHEA is a common-but banned substance, and it is very easy to detect in careful testing--remember, this urine sample was given at Greenville SC during the US National Time Trial Championships--Tom knew for certain that(unless he crashed or flatted) he was going to be tested that day. Many experts say DHEA has no benefit anyway. And as a masking agent-it's a red flag.
DHEA has a pretty short window for detection - Pantani had a HCT of 52% but..he did a "test less than Two and a half hours after the controlwas done at Madonna di Campliglio I went to get one done privately at Imola, where they took two blood samples and I had 48% of hematocrit and 16.5 of hemoglobin".

SeventhSon said:
In the time trial, Tom came in with a dissappointed 2nd place finish, so was sure to be tested right away. He immediately complied with the testers.
Tom was severely dehydrated after the time trial, and had dificulty providing the required sample. That was August 29, 2009.
Tom Zirbel had been under signed contract since MARCH 2009 to ride for Garmin Slipstream in 2010. Garmin has a famous, very well known policy of 100% zero tolerance for doping. On the verge of his dreams coming true, and joining a huge continental team like Garmin, would anybody knowingly do DHEA at this point? Do you think Vaughters hires crazy people? Chances are less than zero, pal. No, Tom did not dope. Never has.
I will quote Pantani again as this sounds familiar....."since we all knew, almost with mathematical certainty, that there were going to be blood controls, that normally the first ten have to undergo and I was the leader and that my day for testing was going to come either at Madonna di Campiglio (Saturday), or the next day. That is why it would have been illogical to have peacefully undergone analysis, without having a clear conscience. And I had a clear conscience. And I still do."
SeventhSon said:
Tom has denied knowingly taking any banned substance all along.
USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying. They are not interested in guilt or innocence, just convictions and renewing their government funding. Ask Zach Lund of the U.S.Olympic Skeleton team. Travis Tygart (Mr USADA)even admits that Lund probably didn't cheat, but WADA / USADA suspended him anyway-for using Rogaine to fight baldness.
Try getting answers from USADA about anything.
It is up to Tom - not USADA or WADA - to explain how he was positive for DHEA, he has not offered any explanation and indeed appears to have accepted the 2 year ban.
SeventhSon said:
I'm sure that a number of folks will regard what I'm saying as unbelieveable, and others had their minds made up for a guilty verdict long ago. I can't help those people. That's too bad, cuz this is the straight truth. Thanks for reading.
Neither the USADA or WADA are beyond reproach, which is why Tom hired Paul Scott - but in the absence of any clear breach of the protocols I will put my trust in their verdict rather than making a decision based on personality.
 
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Dr. Maserati, exactly what harm might I create for Tom by highlighting this case? Why does USADA care what is posted on this board? You know their business well.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Neither the USADA or WADA are beyond reproach, which is why Tom hired Paul Scott - but in the absence of any clear breach of the protocols I will put my trust in their verdict rather than making a decision based on personality.

I forgot about Scott. I cannot think of a person that would be more antagonistic to WADA then Scott. This is the guy who was central to the Landis fraud and tried to interfere with the testing of the B sample. If Tom was looking to work with USADA on a contaminated supplement deal he was the wrong guy to go to.
 
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Race Radio said:
I forgot about Scott. I cannot think of a person that would be more antagonistic to WADA then Scott. This is the guy who was central to the Landis fraud and tried to interfere with the testing of the B sample. If Tom was looking to work with USADA on a contaminated supplement deal he was the wrong guy to go to.

I found it interesting that Scott was recommended by the USOC Athlete Ombudsman tho.
 
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SeventhSon said:
Dr. Maserati, exactly what harm might I create for Tom by highlighting this case? Why does USADA care what is posted on this board? You know their business well.

I would in encourage you to continue to talk about what a great guy Tom is and how he has always been anti doping. Trying to blame the lab or that it took too long for him to pee will be lost on many who have heard similar arguments from Landis, Hamilton, Armstrong, etc.
 

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SeventhSon said:
Dr. Maserati, exactly what harm might I create for Tom by highlighting this case? Why does USADA care what is posted on this board? You know their business well.

As i said previously - Tom appears to be a nice and well respected fellow and presently people appear willing to accept that his positive was the result of some 'contaminated' product.

However, when you post remarks like:
"Something is not quite right at the lab",
"USADA does not like to hear "no"",
"USADA is not fair and unbiased--they are arrogant, vindictive and bullying".

Blaming the lab - or the agency involved will quickly put him in the "Tyler & Floyd" category of "it wasn't me - they are all out to get me".

As for USADA - and what they think, I don't know - the info I posted was from their website, but nice try!
 
I'm more than willing to believe TZ got the DHEA in his system from a tainted supplement. The supplement market is not FDA regulated and half that shi! can be full of rat poison for all we know. Which of course is a big part of why supplements are for chumps.

Now what I'm not willing to believe is that Zirbel couldn't remember what supplements he was taking and that it was too difficult to identify the tainted one. He sounds full of shi! in his Q&A with cyclingnews. And I have zero sympathy for athletes who demonize USADA and WADA.
 
BikeCentric said:
I'm more than willing to believe TZ got the DHEA in his system from a tainted supplement.... And I have zero sympathy for athletes who demonize USADA and WADA.

My belief is that he took it figuring to not get tested/caught. But the tainted supplement argument does hold some water. Much more than the "attack the lab and authorities" TH/FL/LA defense. Completely agree with you there BC.

Always said Floyd should have blamed the T in his system on his cortisone shots for his ailing hip and played dumb on when his last injection was or how much. It wouldn't have fully explained the positive test, and he still would have likely lost everything, but it would have clouded the issue and gathered him more sympathy from people than the nasty, caustic scorched earth defense he and the jackals he hired used. The man is pretty much vilified now in cycling circles, with only the naive casual fan giving him much credit. Tom can't afford that luxury as the only people who know who he is are in cycling circles.
 
So Zirbel's a nice guy. So's Mikel Astarloza. When those Liberty Seguros guys tested positive last year, someone on here posted about how they'd used their wind tunnel and Isidro Nozal had been one of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet. Alejandro Valverde is well-liked and respected in the péloton, but you won't find many who don't acknowledge that those guys don't have chequered history.

So Zirbel's test took a while to be confirmed. Not as long as Eladio Jiménez's positive from Portugal.

So Zirbel tested positive but turned back negative tests either side of it. Well, Astarloza will have been tested after his stage win in the Tour and came back clean, and only 2 of di Luca's 6 samples at the Giro tested positive for CERA. It doesn't matter how many negatives you have, one positive is enough to flag you up (just ask Bernhard Kohl). You could come back clean on every test you've ever done and still not be clean - Valverde and Basso have never given a positive test and yet most are still happy to think of them as dopers.

So maybe it is out of character, unexpected and difficult to explain that Tom Zirbel tested positive. But as we learnt earlier in the year with Astarloza, whose character to that point was spotless and squeaky clean, that doesn't count for jack when that one error is noticed.
 
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Like many before him, Zirbel is claiming innocence and that something just doesn't quite add up with his samples. He seems to be convinced he is clean and that there must be a reasonable explanation.

This case raises the questions of what you would do if YOU tested positive, yet you knew you were innocent (becoz, after all, YOU and only YOU know if you knowingly took drugs) ?

I raised this question in a new clinic thread and would like everyone to contribute if possible. It's a topic I've always wanted to discuss, and the Zirbel case highlighted my intrigue.