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Zirbel confirms B sample is also positive

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Jun 19, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
That article that DAOTEC just linked says he's positive for testostrone.

And like it's been said before; DHEA is used after a Testa cycle to reactivate normal testosterone production. For the doubters this has been a common thread in all the cases mentioned here. Too bad for Zirbil. Can he play golf? OJ will be getting out in a year or so.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Oldman said:
And like it's been said before; DHEA is used after a Testa cycle to reactivate normal testosterone production. For the doubters this has been a common thread in all the cases mentioned here. Too bad for Zirbil. Can he play golf? OJ will be getting out in a year or so.
you can come up with any doping scenario you wish or have imagination for but we still need to understand what zirbel tested positive for ?

it is not clear. as i noted above three american cyclist all claimed dhea but the usada said something different. if we are to discuss and understand the facts of their doping cases, well we need to discuss the facts.
 
Apr 28, 2009
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python said:
you can come up with any doping scenario you wish or have imagination for but we still need to understand what zirbel tested positive for ?

it is not clear. as i noted above three american cyclist all claimed dhea but the usada said something different. if we are to discuss and understand the facts of their doping cases, well we need to discuss the facts.

Zirbel tested positive for DHEA. The USADA report states:

"The sample resulted in an adverse analytical finding for testosterone or its precursors, which is in the class of anabolic steroids and prohibited under the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing and the rules of the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), both of which have adopted the World Anti-Doping Code (“Code”) and the World Anti-Doping Agency Prohibited List."

DHEA is considered a precursor. The journalist responsible for the AFP article that DAOTEC posted just didn't bother to do his homework
 
Feb 4, 2010
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this_is_edie said:
Zirbel tested positive for DHEA. The USADA report states:

"The sample resulted in an adverse analytical finding for testosterone or its precursors, which is in the class of anabolic steroids and prohibited under the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing and the rules of the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), both of which have adopted the World Anti-Doping Code (“Code”) and the World Anti-Doping Agency Prohibited List."

DHEA is considered a precursor. The journalist responsible for the AFP article that DAOTEC posted just didn't bother to do his homework

Thank you this is edie, I could not have stated it better myself! It would sure be simpler if USADA would stick with "DHEA" if that's what they mean.
 
SeventhSon said:
Nope, Red, I don't care what conclusion you came to, albeit the same one you come to after every positive, and I don't care what you've done for 35 years. I don't think you're a jerk for doubting Zirbel. I don't comment about cases that I'm not familiar with and I probably wouldn't bring reference to OJ into it either.

Yes, maybe Zirbel got a contaminated supplement, and he has never denied his resposibility for what he puts in his body. He only looks for answers as to what the source may have been, and then hopefully he can use this info in a hearing with USADA. His behavior seems like "stand up guy" to me.

You're right, it's rare for an accused to stand up and say "Yup, ya got me, I doped"--but wouldn't it be strange for an innocent guy to stand up and say the same thing?

As to what happens two years from now.. no, I won't be posting on Clinic about Zirbel. More likely on the Road section. From the blogs I've read, quite a few people would like to see him come back and race ASAP. I'm sure there won't be any secrets, we'll all know how this comes out.

You are going about this all wrong. I know that you want to protect your boy, but there are better methods. You need to set up a website. I suggest using the name trustbutverify. You should be able to lease it from the current owner for a bargain basement price. You then need get a small group of like minded apologists together to rant about the unfairness of anti-doping policies and organizations. Periodically give credence to crack brained theories as to why Zirbel tested positive or who was out to get him. I know that right about now you are thinking that it will never work, but trust me. This plan is gold. Despite most rational people mocking your ridiculous defense, there will be enough truly stupid people out there who will believe whatever lies you care to tell them. It won't get your boy off the hook as far as the USADA goes. It will guarantee that when he shows up to a race a fan or two will buy him a beer. That goes a long way toward easing the suffering from getting caught.

I also suggest that you get in contact with dbrower ASAP. Run--don't walk--to the nearest phone and sign him up for the cause.
 
Feb 4, 2010
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BroDeal said:
You are going about this all wrong. I know that you want to protect your boy, but there are better methods. You need to set up a website. I suggest using the name trustbutverify. You should be able to lease it from the current owner for a bargain basement price. You then need get a small group of like minded apologists together to rant about the unfairness of anti-doping policies and organizations. Periodically give credence to crack brained theories as to why Zirbel tested positive or who was out to get him. I know that right about now you are thinking that it will never work, but trust me. This plan is gold. Despite most rational people mocking your ridiculous defense, there will be enough truly stupid people out there who will believe whatever lies you care to tell them. It won't get your boy off the hook as far as the USADA goes. It will guarantee that when he shows up to a race a fan or two will buy him a beer. That goes a long way toward easing the suffering from getting caught.

I also suggest that you get in contact with dbrower ASAP. Run--don't walk--to the nearest phone and sign him up for the cause.

Wow--I don't remember putting a quarter in your slot. I think I'll take a pass on any advice or guarantees from you--I've read enough of your thousands of posts. I believe Zirbel's going to be just fine handling his own defense. We'll see.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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this_is_edie said:
<snip>

DHEA is considered a precursor. The journalist responsible for the AFP article that DAOTEC posted just didn't bother to do his homework

You are right edie - dhea is a pro-hormone and zirbel probably failed dhea screen. still his suspension was worded by the usada document i referenced in a way that dhea can not be interpreted as a conclusive reference because wada names specifically at least four testosterone pro-hormones including dhea (take my word, i know what im saying or check for yourself).

however usada’s verdict can be fairy reliably interpreted as NOT exogenous testosterone.

there is a difference that the doping aficionados know or should know !

my point was that many posters on either side rush to take any printed word as fact whereas it was shown that media writers, with few exceptions, are clueless. taking them seriously without some checking multiplies misinformation and adds to confusion.

another point i was making - curiously, three caught cyclists blamed an easy to blame otc substance (for pr or whatever) when the true story is more complicated and a deliberate focused doping program was a more likely case.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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python said:
You are right edie - dhea is a pro-hormone and

my point was that many posters on either side rush to take any printed word as fact whereas it was shown that media writers, with few exceptions, are clueless. taking them seriously without some checking multiplies misinformation and adds to confusion.

another point i was making - curiously, three caught cyclists blamed an easy to blame otc substance (for pr or whatever) when the true story is more complicated and a deliberate focused doping program was a more likely case.[/QUOTE]

My earlier point. We agree whether the language of the report is consistent or not. No one as informed as Zirbel takes DHEA for any legitmate benefit on it's own merit. It remains highly unlikely that it is in any supplement that Zirbel would have taken, particularly before his season's focused event.
 
May 18, 2009
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SeventhSon said:
Wow--I don't remember putting a quarter in your slot. I think I'll take a pass on any advice or guarantees from you--I've read enough of your thousands of posts. I believe Zirbel's going to be just fine handling his own defense. We'll see.

That one will get filed away and reused in the future. :D

Brodeal - what is it with you today? The a$$clown on the Wiggins thread is basically saying the same thing about as this guy is above.

Are you becoming irrelevant?
 
Feb 4, 2010
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ChrisE said:
That one will get filed away and reused in the future. :D

Brodeal - what is it with you today? The a$$clown on the Wiggins thread is basically saying the same thing about as this guy is above.

Are you becoming irrelevant?

You take yourselves too seriously--we (posters) are all irrelevant to the real cycling world.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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SeventhSon said:
You take yourselves too seriously--we (posters) are all irrelevant to the real cycling world.

Some do take themselves way too seriously. As for irrelevance; look around the edges of this forum. Those blinky things you see are advertisements. They are paid for by sponsors. Those folks are interested in how we spend our Euros and dollars. You'd have to be naive to think they, the teams and individual riders don't pay any attention to public sentiment.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Oldman said:
Some do take themselves way too seriously. As for irrelevance; look around the edges of this forum. Those blinky things you see are advertisements. They are paid for by sponsors. Those folks are interested in how we spend our Euros and dollars. You'd have to be naive to think they, the teams and individual riders don't pay any attention to public sentiment.

I believe the more correct question is "Does this forum represent the true public sentiment?"
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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RTMcFadden said:
I believe the more correct question is "Does this forum represent the true public sentiment?"

If you mean public sentiment in cycling related matters - then yes, why wouldn't it?

There are over 10,000 different individual posters on this site - who have views and opinions that vary and are often at complete opposites.

If 'public sentiment' or 'public opinion' was not an issue then one would wonder why 'SeventhSon' felt the need to join the forum and air his opinion.
 
Feb 4, 2010
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Oldman said:
Some do take themselves way too seriously. As for irrelevance; look around the edges of this forum. Those blinky things you see are advertisements. They are paid for by sponsors. Those folks are interested in how we spend our Euros and dollars. You'd have to be naive to think they, the teams and individual riders don't pay any attention to public sentiment.

OK, you're right. All 10,000 posters are, of course, relevant. As for more irrelevance, look at the lower end of your legs--those things are feet! They are for you to get up, go over to the fridge and get me a beer.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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SeventhSon said:
OK, you're right. All 10,000 posters are, of course, relevant. As for more irrelevance, look at the lower end of your legs--those things are feet! They are for you to get up, go over to the fridge and get me a beer.

I use them more for riding my bike and that makes them relevant to me.
That and relevant discussion on doping protocols, UCI enforcement (or lack of) and racing tactics/results. If fans have that information by anyone's definition then they become relevant. Spend some time looking at some serious information from seriously vested contributors and you'll learn something more than the love of Michelob Ultra.
 
DAOTEC said:
^
In his blog on Friday, Zirbel wrote...
"Nothing has really changed: I will still continue to have testing done to try and figure out how this all happened in the first place and I still won't be racing."...

(Sarcastic) TRANSLATION:

"Nothing has really changed (in pro cycling): I finally accepted the suspension because I realized that it would take two years - plus a dollar amount 4x that of which I could have hoped to have earned by racing in the PT for two years - to mount a tainted supplement/procedural error defense (aka "The Jacobs Defense"), so I'm instead going to spend a much smaller amount of money and continue to have testing done to try and figure out how my doping program derailed and how I got caught in the first place..." :rolleyes:

Surprised no one's parsing the gain credibility with USADA statement. If, after a period of denying that you doped, you then accept a sanction to gain credibility with the anti-doping agency that is prosecuting your case, it can only mean that by having rejected the sanction previously, you'd assumed an incredible position based on the evidence at hand and were clearly calling into question your own moral compass by denying something that your accusers clearly could prove, based on the facts they'd assembled (reminds me of Hamilton after the "Haven" fax was released). I mean, if you didn't dope, why would you ever accept anything other than a provisional suspension if you had funds at hand to at least complete the formalities of defending yourself such that you forced a judgment on your guilt/innocence by others - rather than admitting your guilt but then trying to float the tainted supplement defense after-the-fact. Procedurally, Zirbel could have accepted a provisional suspension to start the clock on his ban ASAP, while at least putting up the bare minimum fight to ensure that in the public record he does not accept the charges of having doped (but avoids spending $2millionUSD on a frivolous defense). Instead, he cops to the charges (admitting his guilt) but then tries to imply he's not really guilty (even though he admitted his guilt by accepting the sanction).

The TZ Fan Club will be disbanding soon, too - by accepting the sanction, he cuts the legs off of those supporters who would have believed him innocent even if Graham Watson had taken a photo from a grassy knoll at World's TT championships showing TZ racing along with a powerbar stuck to the top tube of his Pinarello w/ DHEA tabs stuck into it, arranged in the shape of a smiley face. How can you defend TZ when he admitted his guilt by accepting the sanction?

TZ, why agree with the charges against you by accepting the sanction without seeing it through to arbitration (which does not cost a whole whole lot) if you're really not guilty? There is a mechanism to allow you to register, at all official points along the way, official protestations of your innocence so you could have gone to the paredón with your convictions (no pun intended) intact...

The only thing I can think is that because 1) you're guilty as charged and 2) you hope for some future in some capacity in some USOC-affiliated sport and don't want to earn the ire of the anti-doping agency prosecuting your case by pulling a Landis...
 
Feb 4, 2010
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joe_papp said:
(Sarcastic) TRANSLATION:

"Nothing has really changed (in pro cycling): I finally accepted the suspension because I realized that it would take two years - plus a dollar amount 4x that of which I could have hoped to have earned by racing in the PT for two years - to mount a tainted supplement/procedural error defense (aka "The Jacobs Defense"), so I'm instead going to spend a much smaller amount of money and continue to have testing done to try and figure out how my doping program derailed and how I got caught in the first place..." :rolleyes:

Surprised no one's parsing the gain credibility with USADA statement. If, after a period of denying that you doped, you then accept a sanction to gain credibility with the anti-doping agency that is prosecuting your case, it can only mean that by having rejected the sanction previously, you'd assumed an incredible position based on the evidence at hand and were clearly calling into question your own moral compass by denying something that your accusers clearly could prove, based on the facts they'd assembled (reminds me of Hamilton after the "Haven" fax was released). I mean, if you didn't dope, why would you ever accept anything other than a provisional suspension if you had funds at hand to at least complete the formalities of defending yourself such that you forced a judgment on your guilt/innocence by others - rather than admitting your guilt but then trying to float the tainted supplement defense after-the-fact. Procedurally, Zirbel could have accepted a provisional suspension to start the clock on his ban ASAP, while at least putting up the bare minimum fight to ensure that in the public record he does not accept the charges of having doped (but avoids spending $2millionUSD on a frivolous defense). Instead, he cops to the charges (admitting his guilt) but then tries to imply he's not really guilty (even though he admitted his guilt by accepting the sanction).

The TZ Fan Club will be disbanding soon, too - by accepting the sanction, he cuts the legs off of those supporters who would have believed him innocent even if Graham Watson had taken a photo from a grassy knoll at World's TT championships showing TZ racing along with a powerbar stuck to the top tube of his Pinarello w/ DHEA tabs stuck into it, arranged in the shape of a smiley face. How can you defend TZ when he admitted his guilt by accepting the sanction?

TZ, why agree with the charges against you by accepting the sanction without seeing it through to arbitration (which does not cost a whole whole lot) if you're really not guilty? There is a mechanism to allow you to register, at all official points along the way, official protestations of your innocence so you could have gone to the paredón with your convictions (no pun intended) intact...

The only thing I can think is that because 1) you're guilty as charged and 2) you hope for some future in some capacity in some USOC-affiliated sport and don't want to earn the ire of the anti-doping agency prosecuting your case by pulling a Landis...

Joe, I suppose it's fun to post "sarcastic translations" and fantasies about grassy knollls, but you should know that it doesn't get you or anyone else closer to the truth. I'm sure you are familiar with posters who attempt to demonize. Some probably deserve it.
Zirbel's statements have been made in plain English, and your dark analysis is, I suppose.. understandable, given your frame of experience.

As for "The TZ Fan Club will be disbanding soon"--wouldn't want to bet a thousand dollars on that, would you? Sounds like jealousy to me.

You're on the wrong side of the fence....again.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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One thing strikes me as interesting.

Zirbel fans, like fans of others who have tested positive for DHEA recently, have used and abused the argument that DHEA doesn't enhance performance at all.

Today, the details of the apprehensions on the LA-MSS case were revealed. Why is this relevant?

Well, I won't list all the products, as it would take me a good part of the night to translate and it would easily be the longest post in the history of the forum.

But I would like to note one thing: Among the many, many substances apprehended and listed in the doping programs of each rider, by far the most common are enormous bucketloads of pills upon pills upon pills of DHEA.

If they have no effect, why are they such a large part of the riders' doping programs?
 
Jun 19, 2009
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issoisso said:
One thing strikes me as interesting.

Zirbel fans, like fans of others who have tested positive for DHEA recently, have used and abused the argument that DHEA doesn't enhance performance at all.

Today, the details of the apprehensions on the LA-MSS case were revealed.

I won't list all the products, as it would take me a good part of the night to translate and it would easily be the longest post in the history of the forum.

But I would like to note one thing: Among the many, many substances apprehended and listed in the doping programs of each rider, by far the most common are enormous bucketloads of pills upon pills upon pills of DHEA.

I suppose it takes alot of DHEA to get the natural system going after a program cycle. There would be no other reason to have the crap.
 
Oct 31, 2009
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I don't buy it, none of it. We heard it all before haven't we?

I believe that he is responsible for what supplements he takes so I doubt the tainted supplement argument have any effect other than giving the true believers something to hang on to.

My way of reasoning:
There are so many rumors and so many cyclists I "know" uses, so when one gets caught he really must be using since I "know" the tests aren't that effective.

I saw some early posts about it being an honest statement. To me it seems like he is following the standard procedure by claiming that he is innocent, doping is wrong, something strange must have happened. All the right things to say for someone that wants to get accepted back in a couple of seasons, claiming innocence and not stirring up too much poop in the process.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re:

python said:
BikeCentric said:
That article that DAOTEC just linked says he's positive for testostrone.

why do you have to rely on the article if i provided a link to the original usada document ? there is more to it apparently than relying on the second hand reports written by journalists who dont understand primary sources.

Nailhead, meet hammer.

There's only ever been one DHEA positive under USADA's jurisdiction and that was LaShawn Merritt. Like Zirbel, Merritt had an adverse analytical finding for testosterone or testosterone precursors but because his lawyer demanded it, USADA was forced to conduct the more expensive CIR test that isolated the DHEA precursor.