Zirbel confirms B sample is also positive

[Race Radio]

So Zirbel's a nice guy. So's Mikel Astarloza. When those Liberty Seguros guys tested positive last year, someone on here posted about how they'd used their wind tunnel and Isidro Nozal had been one of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet. Alejandro Valverde is well-liked and respected in the péloton, but you won't find many who don't acknowledge that those guys don't have chequered history.

So Zirbel's test took a while to be confirmed. Not as long as Eladio Jiménez's positive from Portugal.

So Zirbel tested positive but turned back negative tests either side of it. Well, Astarloza will have been tested after his stage win in the Tour and came back clean, and only 2 of di Luca's 6 samples at the Giro tested positive for CERA. It doesn't matter how many negatives you have, one positive is enough to flag you up (just ask Bernhard Kohl). You could come back clean on every test you've ever done and still not be clean - Valverde and Basso have never given a positive test and yet most are still happy to think of them as dopers.

So maybe it is out of character, unexpected and difficult to explain that Tom Zirbel tested positive. But as we learnt earlier in the year with Astarloza, whose character to that point was spotless and squeaky clean, that doesn't count for jack when that one error is noticed.

Was a bag of Zirbel's blood found in Fuente's fridge? Did he ride for teams and DS' with organized doping programs? Did any of his former teamates say that he doped? I have never heard Valverde be outspoken against doping like Tom.

The reason why some are willing to give Zirbel a pass is not just that he is a nice guy but the lack of ancillary evidence like you have with a rider like Valverde.

 

[fatandfast]

In the new twitter world nobody can say "no comment". Tom's good deeds at a homeless shelter and is giving to the needy are complete BS. Comparing himself to Phinney and Dr. Eric Heiden is a stretch way too far. While interviewed he had comments on Ricco and others.stfu already you are caught and you are done with racing.Tom should not talk or comment about his doing true or false if he wants to ever race again. Keeping your job as a mentor to kids and getting a job as a teacher are lofty as well. Dr.Thompson told of all lives he had impacted as an ER doctor and that that should make his sentence a slap on the wrist after he crashed 2 riders on an LA canyon downhill. OJ Simpson brought up the fact that he did lots of charity work at his murder trial and it worked for him.The more Zirbel states something happened by "accident" he looks like more of a tool.

 

[python]

my motto is to always cut through the bs if possible...

so, reading this interview with tz in the cn today, it is apparent that he narrowed down his positive test to 2 possibilities - a test error or some contamination of his supplements. he also said he was able to finally put his hands on the vitamin batches he used and send them for testing.

having some experience in the area, id think it is not very difficult to get the science straight in this case.

first, if it is a lab error, zirbel must get the documentation package and review all gc-ms plots. it is a very straightforward science. after he failed a screening test, his dhea concentration must have been confirmed by no less than 3 additional tests. if there are errors there, they'll sceem at you.

second, zirbel says someone is testing his supplements already at little cost to him. carry on that testing to the end.

i'm sure, it is not too difficult to show ones innocence (don't know about proving it, a different legal game) if one takes the job professionally, calmly and w/o floyds antics.

 

[fatandfast]

I am not saying that the USADA is any worse than any other agency tasked with drug testing. Zirbel needs to figure out it is already over. Spending money or time on the "why" part of the problem is a waste. If the tooth fairy dropped it in his sugar plum energy recovery shakes it doesn't make a difference, His parents and grandparents believe that it's all a big mistake. He should be happy with that. Convicted dopers are guilty,with or without a reason why they did it. He should have never floated that "I could have ate it by mistake" BS.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Was a bag of Zirbel's blood found in Fuente's fridge? Did he ride for teams and DS' with organized doping programs? Did any of his former teamates say that he doped? I have never heard Valverde be outspoken against doping like Tom.

The reason why some are willing to give Zirbel a pass is not just that he is a nice guy but the lack of ancillary evidence like you have with a rider like Valverde.

Hence why the comparison I was trying to accentuate was that with Astarloza rather than Valverde; I was just using the fact that Valverde has never tested positive to combat the theory that because Zirbel tested clean several times either side of the suspect result he becomes easier to believe. Astarloza's character and behaviour prior to July was exemplary and his positive test was far more 'out of nowhere' (notwithstanding that he's riding for Euskaltel of course) than one for the likes of Valverde would have been. His comments afterward showed him to be a pretty intelligent and persuasive guy, but that doesn't mean he's innocent nor that anybody actually believes he is (a fact he readily admitted to, saying 'when a cyclist says he's innocent, people will always think, 'why should we believe him and not the others?'' or words to that effect). Given that he tested positive for EPO, regular old EPO, not CERA or anything like that, it's such a ridiculous risk to be taking that it's hard to believe a guy who seems outwardly as down-to-earth and sensible as Astarloza would have taken that risk - and yet, it would appear to all and sundry that he did. This is the point with Zirbel too. The guy could be the nicet guy in the world, and seem intelligent and reasonable, but we've all heard the spiel about innocence too many times now. Everybody protests their innocence when they test positive. And the guy could speak up against doping all he likes, it won't stop speculation. He's always been a good TT rider, but his Worlds performance was unexpectedly good. It's not THAT different to the unexpectedly good GC ride of Wiggins at the Tour, and there's been plenty of speculation about that. When Zirbel then says he's innocent, he could have all the righteousness in the world on his side, and cycling fans will look at the unexpectedly good performance, perhaps out of context, and the protestations of innocence from the likes of Valverde, di Luca and Héctor Guerra, and think, "yea, right".

 

[blackcat]

Zirbel should change his surname to Zabel I reckon.

 

[fatandfast]

Zirbel can't race because of the USADA conclusion not the court of public opinion. We all know who wouldn't be racing if the opinion courts verdict came in.

 

[Cobblestones]

One reason why riders don't admit drug use is that they'd be asked 'so, who gave it to you?' Omerta. Simple, really.

Zirbel is guilty just like any of the others who were caught cheating.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't know about that Cobblestones. One could fairly easily say they bought it from someone named Jose that approached him in Mexico City. I mean, try tracking that down. Or from "John" in Los Angeles for that matter.

I'm sure, it is not too difficult to show ones innocence (don't know about proving it, a different legal game) if one takes the job professionally, calmly and w/o floyds antics.

Pretty much agree with that.

I'd also like to add Roberto Heras to the list of nice guys. Seems very friendly in interviews. Yet even after his sanction ended, still no one would hire him.

 

[MacRoadie]

One could fairly easily say they bought it from someone named Jose that approached him in Mexico City. I mean, try tracking that down. Or from "John" in Los Angeles for that matter.

Or "Juan" in Los Angeles...

Or Juan Pelota....

 

[dbrower]

I forgot about Scott. I cannot think of a person that would be more antagonistic to WADA then Scott. This is the guy who was central to the Landis fraud and tried to interfere with the testing of the B sample.

Sounds like there is a story here, would you like to expand? I am not sure I know what you are talking about.

thanks,
-dB

 

[Race Radio]

Sounds like there is a story here, would you like to expand? I am not sure I know what you are talking about.

thanks,
-dB

Of course you know that Scott discussed methods of how a witness could disrupt a B sample test with his co workers. Then, surprise, while performing the secondary testing Scott become so disruptive that the tester felt he was trying to interfere with the testing and actually stopped the testing until Scott backed away.

Of course you know this but I expect you to write some long, multi-paragraph ramble that explains how this was all a French plot. Don't expect me to respond.

 

[dbrower]

Of course you know that Scott discussed methods of how a witness could disrupt a B sample test with his co workers. Then, surprise, while performing the secondary testing Scott become so disruptive that the tester felt he was trying to interfere with the testing and actually stopped the testing until Scott backed away.

Of course you know this but I expect you to write some long, multi-paragraph ramble that explains how this was all a French plot. Don't expect me to respond.

Ah, so there is nothing new to add. This was a literal "he said, she said" for which there was testimony both ways at the first hearing, which amounted to nothing. I hoped there was additional information to be had that might illuminate the situation beyond that original testimony, but nada.

-dB

 

[Race Radio]

Ah, so there is nothing new to add. This was a literal "he said, she said" for which there was testimony both ways at the first hearing, which amounted to nothing. I hoped there was additional information to be had that might illuminate the situation beyond that original testimony, but nada.

-dB

Thanks to living up to your reputation. Yeah, we get it. Everyone lies but Floyd the doper.

As for "amounting to nothing"....you seem to forget, Floyd lost.

 

[DAOTEC]

The big "T"

^
In his blog on Friday, Zirbel wrote that he accepted the sanction in order to "gain a little credibility with USADA" but indicated he still didn't know how the positive result came about.

"Even when my friends and family know that I am not a cheat, it still hurts to write this and it really hurt to send that fax today," he wrote.

"Nothing has really changed: I will still continue to have testing done to try and figure out how this all happened in the first place and I still won't be racing."

Zirbel's results achieved at and subsequent to the meeting are forfeited.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100402/sp_afp/cyclingusazirbeldoping

 

[red_flanders]

"Nothing has really changed: I will still continue to have testing done to try and figure out how this all happened in the first place and I still won't be racing."

Zirbel's results achieved at and subsequent to the meeting are forfeited.

Remonds me of OJ's post-trial search for Nicole's real killer.

 

[SeventhSon]

Yo, Red Flanders-Zirbel's efforts remind you of OJ's? So, what you're really saying is, since you don't know what Zirbel's been doing to research this case, and you haven't bothered to really follow this case, you choose to ridicule him with a comparison to OJ Simpson's murder case from 16 years ago? Gee, that's rich.

 

[red_flanders]

Yo, Red Flanders-Zirbel's efforts remind you of OJ's? So, what you're really saying is, since you don't know what Zirbel's been doing to research this case, and you haven't bothered to really follow this case, you choose to ridicule him with a comparison to OJ Simpson's murder case from 16 years ago? Gee, that's rich.

Yep.

Kind of like how you assume that because I haven't reached the same conclusion you did, that I'm not researching or following the case.

Look Seventh, I've been following cycling for over 35 years. I've seen more stories, cases, doping scandals and bull**** press releases than one could imagine. I've seen positives being denied from Hinault to Festina to Armstrong to Vandenbroucke's dog, Rumsas' mother-in-law, I've seen lies like Hamilton's tears and Floyd's beers and it isn't going to stop anytime soon.

Maybe Zirbel got a contaminated supplement. He'll be about the 30th I can recall since I've followed cycling, and strangely enough, I can count on one hand the number of guys that said, "Yup, you got me, I doped".

Is it possible he didn't do it? Of course. Is he responsible for what he puts in his body? Yep. You can yell at me when Zirbel has a press conference and tells us all that he found out how he tested positive and how he can repeat it and prove it. When that happens, you can tell me what a jerk I am for doubting him. Maybe a couple years from now you'll make a post wondering what ever became of Zirbel's investigation?

 

[SeventhSon]

Nope, Red, I don't care what conclusion you came to, albeit the same one you come to after every positive, and I don't care what you've done for 35 years. I don't think you're a jerk for doubting Zirbel. I don't comment about cases that I'm not familiar with and I probably wouldn't bring reference to OJ into it either.

Yes, maybe Zirbel got a contaminated supplement, and he has never denied his resposibility for what he puts in his body. He only looks for answers as to what the source may have been, and then hopefully he can use this info in a hearing with USADA. His behavior seems like "stand up guy" to me.

You're right, it's rare for an accused to stand up and say "Yup, ya got me, I doped"--but wouldn't it be strange for an innocent guy to stand up and say the same thing?

As to what happens two years from now.. no, I won't be posting on Clinic about Zirbel. More likely on the Road section. From the blogs I've read, quite a few people would like to see him come back and race ASAP. I'm sure there won't be any secrets, we'll all know how this comes out.

 

[BikeCentric]

How the F did Zirbel "accidentally" get synthetic testosterone in his system? I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on a tainted supplement when it was reported that he was positive for DHEA but Test is a different story.

 

[Anonymous]

How the F did Zirbel "accidentally" get synthetic testosterone in his system? I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on a tainted supplement when it was reported that he was positive for DHEA but Test is a different story.

Jack Daniels and French frogmen come to mind...Ask db, I am sure he has a couple more bullsh!t excuses on tap

 

[SeventhSon]

How the F did Zirbel "accidentally" get synthetic testosterone in his system? I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on a tainted supplement when it was reported that he was positive for DHEA but Test is a different story.

DHEA is what Zirbel tested positive for and NOT synthetic testosterone.

 

[python]

hmm, it is curious the way usada worded the suspension. no mention of dhea specifically. the usada site said 'finding for testosterone or its precursors'

when tyler hamilton was sanctioned reportedly also for dhea , usada listed it as ‘sanctioned for anabolic agent’. when people tested for synthetic testosterone, like flandis, usada published it as ‘sanctioned for synthetic testosterone.

it does not look like it was exo-t but something is not right. zirbel could easily dispel these contradictions by publishing a copy of the usada sanctioning document.


http://www.usada.org/files/active/resources/press_releases/Press Release - Zirbel - April 2010.pdf

edit - looked up williams who was also reported to test for dhea. that one is really interesting. usada said 'adverse CIR'. CIR is american for IRMS or a test for synthetic testosterone that flandis failed. hmmm, never heard williams admitting that. so, all three americans williams, zirbel and hamilton admitted to dhea but usada said they tested for different things. why ?

 

[BikeCentric]

DHEA is what Zirbel tested positive for and NOT synthetic testosterone.

That article that DAOTEC just linked says he's positive for testostrone.

 

[python]

That article that DAOTEC just linked says he's positive for testostrone.

why do you have to rely on the article if i provided a link to the original usada document ? there is more to it apparently than relying on the second hand reports written by journalists who dont understand primary sources.