State of the Peloton 2024

[red_flanders]

I think we could start looking at the last 5 editions as interesting. Yes, average speed is crude and dependent on many conditions and tactics, but when they start adding up like that over the trend line, it does make one raise the eyebrows a bit. Obviously not conclusive in any way, but...interesting. You don't see 4 races clumped together like that since the late 50's.

It's the kind of data which makes you want to ask more questions, not draw a conclusion.

Article: https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/

 

[pastronef]

Not anymore? Maybe now cycling wants an image of clean sport. No more top stars busted and no more big scandals. Just let them race and make show!

doping controls are still being made. and some lower rate rider still uses EPO and gets caught (and does not win races though)
if the peloton was scared, they would not keep smashing record times on climbs and races.
I think they walk the Wada thin red line. they surely don't travel around with epo vials and blood bags like the usual twitter antidopers still blab about. it's grey area in training, that's where it is. it's up to Wada to decide and draw a different line. I'm fine with it

 

[Netserk]

I think they walk the Wada thin red line. they surely don't travel around with epo vials and blood bags like the usual twitter antidopers still blab about.

Why not?

When did exactly that trip the wire?

 

[pastronef]

Why not?

When did exactly that trip the wire?

French police coming anytime they like? EPO positives? blood transfusions making the bio passport alarms go ding ding ding?
there's something new not on the list

 

[Sciatic]

So as we still wait to hear about Hessman, today's Milan San Remo should give us some idea of how this year's vintage of "rocket fuel" is measuring up.
Last year was a record fast (by no less then 4 guys) climb of the Poggio, so let's see what a peloton full of 120g carbs/hour plus ketones guys can achieve.


Pee in a cup then it's off to the boffins in white coats tout suite, I guess.

True I meant how much or how often are they utilizing the more advanced testing in pro cycling?

 

[Netserk]

French police coming anytime they like? EPO positives? blood transfusions making the bio passport alarms go ding ding ding?
there's something new not on the list

When was the last time that travelling with EPO and blood bags were found?

At the very least, it was obviously still best practice a decade ago, and I don't think any searches at races have found EPO and blood bags in at least two decades. Teams know how to handle it, it's no real risk.

 

[Red Rick]

doping controls are still being made. and some lower rate rider still uses EPO and gets caught (and does not win races though)
if the peloton was scared, they would not keep smashing record times on climbs and races.
I think they walk the Wada thin red line. they surely don't travel around with epo vials and blood bags like the usual twitter antidopers still blab about. it's grey area in training, that's where it is. it's up to Wada to decide and draw a different line. I'm fine with it

Normally you would think Vingegaard crossed a few lines in that Tour ITT last year

 

[Sciatic]

French police coming anytime they like? EPO positives? blood transfusions making the bio passport alarms go ding ding ding?
there's something new not on the list

Im sure there are other goodies in their grab bag, but French police aren’t in Teide or other isolated training locations or in Spain for that matter. Microdosing EPO is detectable for 24-48 hrs (I was wrong about that before) but the increase in HCT will wane but still last several weeks. Bio passport could pick that up but the loopholes of coming back from altitude and the natural drop in HCT during course of a GT provide accepted explanations.

 

[fbjim]

I think from that data we can also see that speeds remained relatively steady from the 70s to 00s, which is obviously a period where profound changes in doping occured.

This is maybe unpopular but as far as doping metrics go, average speeds of races/stages is a very poor metric that is far more tied to general strategy than anything else.

 

[Rob5091]

All this talk of fastest ever is just a reminder of 1999's Tour of Renewal when a certain American won in the fastest ever time. "Never tested positive!" When one guy is putting out crazy w/kg is one thing, but the whole peloton champing at the bit always seems a bit suspicious to me.

Edit - I can understand that it's just a piece of the puzzle. If guys are getting thinner and still putting out megawatts then overall race times won't be quicker (just climbing times). Now we have faster climbing times and overall times.
Oh well, the travelling circus moves on and let's see how the show is at Catalunya.

 

[Rob5091]

Tom Dumoulin (or Tommy D as he was here on the Forum), reckons the kids cann't last
https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/t...ere-wereldtoppers-maar-mij-zou-het-opbranden/
(googling translation)

"You can see that they are getting good younger and younger. From the age of 15 or 16, these boys often receive the same guidance as the pros. It has become so calculated and structured in terms of training and nutrition," he says.

"When I was sixteen, that knowledge was not available. I didn't know how Michael Boogerd trained, but now every sixteen-year-old can look on Strava and copy what the pros are doing," he continues.

Whether peaking at a young age also has its downside, Dumoulin finds it difficult to judge. "I wonder if that's going to burn them out. It would burn me out anyway, but they're different character types. I'm a bit of a free bird, an enthusiast. I enjoyed the adventure and the training, but not if it was specified to the minute and the wattage."

 

[Slavique Nuke]

How is it possible that an ITT specialist from Kittel's sprint train was able to transform himself into a GT winner if he was just an adventurer/free bird who didn't follow a 'specified' training plan?

 

[fbjim]

Someone on Another Forum told me that he's seeing "fastest ever" results down to the amatuer level as well, from local road races (in California). This is one of those cases where I actually suspect that bike tech might be the cause. I'm usually skeptical of that, but we have had significant changes in brake and tire practices in the last decade, and that's one of those things which undeniably flows from the pros to the pro-am and amateur levels.

 

[Rob5091]

Seems like Laporte is also a victim of the "Tom Dumoulins" or should that be "Teddy Pogacars" now? Any who, too many gels, too many ketones, monkey pox (it'll get us all!) who knows?!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...-of-health-hes-not-ready-to-ride-his-bike-yet

 

[Rob5091]

Someone on Another Forum told me that he's seeing "fastest ever" results down to the amatuer level as well, from local road races (in California). This is one of those cases where I actually suspect that bike tech might be the cause. I'm usually skeptical of that, but we have had significant changes in brake and tire practices in the last decade, and that's one of those things which undeniably flows from the pros to the pro-am and amateur levels.

There was an interview with coach & cyclist Richard Stern who at 55 is putting out better numbers now then when he was 25. Thanks mainly to access to data, nutrition and gym work.

 

[hrotha]

There was an interview with coach & cyclist Richard Stern who at 55 is putting out better numbers now then when he was 25. Thanks mainly to access to data, nutrition and gym work.

The data in question:

Spoiler

 

[proffate]

I think we could start looking at the last 5 editions as interesting. Yes, average speed is crude and dependent on many conditions and tactics, but when they start adding up like that over the trend line, it does make one raise the eyebrows a bit. Obviously not conclusive in any way, but...interesting. You don't see 4 races clumped together like that since the late 50's.

It's the kind of data which makes you want to ask more questions, not draw a conclusion.

Article: https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/

Why does this data make you want to ask about doping specifically? We all know the 90s were rife with doping, and other decades as well, but we don't see the same speed trend in the 90s.

And where is this trend line you mention? I don't see one graphed, so I can't tell if the latest points are over it.

Modern materials and training techniques are improved over past decades. Not by 10%, but by modest amounts. So why wouldn't we expect faster speeds?

 

[red_flanders]

Why does this data make you want to ask about doping specifically? We all know the 90s were rife with doping, and other decades as well, but we don't see the same speed trend in the 90s.

And where is this trend line you mention? I don't see one graphed, so I can't tell if the latest points are over it.

Modern materials and training techniques are improved over past decades. Not by 10%, but by modest amounts. So why wouldn't we expect faster speeds?

I agree, nothing in the 90's in that data, and overall speed data stinks for this kind of analysis for all the reasons we all understand. The trend line is the last 4 stars, which are starting to look like an outlier. That's interesting, it's data that makes me ask "why". Could be nothing, and the answer could certainly be any answer which explains it. Wind, route, whatever. Just questions, not conclusions.

We should expect faster speeds than clean riders could make, sure. Faster than riders on the full EPO program or blood bags? I would not expect that. Not saying this data shows that.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

Is substances like semaglutide (wegovy) and other glp1 blockers banned?

These drugs must be helpful for keeping low weight, is there any known side effects on power?

 

[Netserk]

Is substances like semaglutide (wegovy) and other glp1 blockers banned?

No.

I'd expect it to hamper performance when you need burn glucagon. With a half-life of a week, I don't think it's of use during the season.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

No.

I'd expect it to hamper performance when you need burn glucagon. With a half-life of a week, I don't think it's of use during the season.

I see thanks for the reply.

 

[Ripper]

No.

I'd expect it to hamper performance when you need burn glucagon. With a half-life of a week, I don't think it's of use during the season.

Indeed. I could see this being an offseason weight loss/maintenance experiment for some. But the potential downsides during a major race could be fairly catastrophic for one's top end performance.

 

[Rob5091]

Tommy D said the kids cann't last and now Alberto Bettiol says the same thing,
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...he-overly-scientific-approach-of-young-riders

"They’re focused on their watts per kilo, their aerodynamics and live on their mobile phones. They’re young but mature too, but without having learned how to do things by experiencing them. It’s all been explained to them, or they studied it all online. But they haven’t lived it. I don’t think the new generation will last very long, one by one they’ll realise that life is passing them by."

 

[Rob5091]

Foodies talk about feeding classic guys ... hint, buy "rice futures"!
"Kilos of rice, endless energy gels, and multi-meal recovery plans have become mainstays of the modern spring classic nutrition strategy."
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-training/pro-cyclists-fuel-tour-of-flanders-paris-roubaix/

Race-day breakfast will see bleary-eyed riders top off their glycogen tanks in preparation for what’s to come.

Timed three hours out from race start to ensure complete digestion, it’s a 7am ordeal that would put most of us back into a slumber.

“In general, most riders will have four times their body weight in grams of carbohydrates at breakfast alone,” Israel Premier Tech nutritionist Gabriel Martins said. “I dare a normal person to try to eat this amount of food at breakfast. Most of us would struggle to do that in a whole day.”

 

[Armchair cyclist]

“In general, most riders will have four times their body weight in grams of carbohydrates at breakfast alone,” Israel Premier Tech nutritionist Gabriel Martins said. “I dare a normal person to try to eat this amount of food at breakfast. Most of us would struggle to do that in a whole day.”

But their body weight is measured in grams (if we ignore the pedantic distinction between mass and weight), so "four times their body weight in grams" is 4 times their weight. I'm going to go out on a limb here and challenge the assertion that Pascal Ackermann* eats 78000 (weight in grams, according to PCS) x 4 /0.28 (280 g or carb in 1kg of rice according to US Dept of Agriculture) =1.15 metric tonnes of rice for breakfast.


*:seemed an appropriate example this weekend