And the data will probably show a sticky bottle for 100 meters or so, which won't bring any closure, sway anyone. So I see a parallel with Froome, or Saddam: Froome's detractors say that the data is incomplete, the VO2Max manipulated, and didn't get convinced a bit. I'm one of them. Recent polls show that a majority of the American public still believes that Saddam had WMD. Why? Because they made their mind a long time ago and will never admit that they were wrong. For them, a tube of aspirin in Saddam's night-stand would be evidence of a chemical program.Escarabajo said:Alexandre B.,
If the other parties involved are keeping quiet it does not mean that they agree with Demare. In fact it makes it worse.
Releasing the data is very simple. And it does not compare with the Froome case. These are two complete different cases. One can be picked up easily and the other one is a more complicated one and involves several calculations. With the case of Demare is simple: no power at double the speed= big tow!
Same, as I said it here already, I am pretty sure that Démare did benefit from a Sticky bottle at some point in the Cippressa + of course once he was back in the cars got benefit from drafting like everybody else in those circumstances.Tonton said:And the data will probably show a sticky bottle for 100 meters or so, which won't bring any closure, sway anyone. So I see a parallel with Froome, or Saddam: Froome's detractors say that the data is incomplete, the VO2Max manipulated, and didn't get convinced a bit. I'm one of them. Recent polls show that a majority of the American public still believes that Saddam had WMD. Why? Because they made their mind a long time ago and will never admit that they were wrong. For them, a tube of aspirin in Saddam's night-stand would be evidence of a chemical program.Escarabajo said:Alexandre B.,
If the other parties involved are keeping quiet it does not mean that they agree with Demare. In fact it makes it worse.
Releasing the data is very simple. And it does not compare with the Froome case. These are two complete different cases. One can be picked up easily and the other one is a more complicated one and involves several calculations. With the case of Demare is simple: no power at double the speed= big tow!
I don't see many like you who would have the honesty to look at facts and draw a conclusion, without letting feelings get in the way. That was a compliment. Afaic, I have expressed doubts at one point: holding onto a car as it was described was worth a DQ. No ifs, not buts. I didn't like the deletion of a Strava file. In retrospect, I can see a reason when I read between the lines: FDJ doesn't have many friends these days. If it comes down to a judgement call (i.e. was a sticky bottle crossing the line?), why release the tube of aspirin?
To you, a sticky bottle can be OK at times, on the Cipressa it's a no-no. I would counter-argue that Cipressa is OK, but on the last climb (in this case the Poggio), not so much. I give Demare a small break because he got tangled up in a crash that he had nothing to do with, made up (almost all of) his deficit "a la pedale". No honest person can blame him for drafting: how do you pass all these cars?
I recognized being somewhat biased. But I'm open-minded. If more comes up, I'll have no qualms admitting that I was wrong and call for a DQ. But what I saw thus far, that's as I put it, the female elephant delivering a mice...
This is really strange. I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post but you are replying as if I did.trucido said:Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.King Boonen said:Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Very true... But indeed this is bike racing. Bouhanni had his Andy Schleck 2010 moment.. too bad for him, he thought he had a plan...max_powers said:Great Discussion.
If Bouhanni's chain did not slip (FSA cranks suck imo) we would not be having it.
That's bike racing
Have to agree with this, as I said i'm for releasing all Data but that's from all riders but that's a bigger conversation and so much about this conversation. In this case Demare published his Data on Strava and as in the past he removed the heart rate and power sections of the upload which he always does with his Stava files, I wish more riders would upload rides to Stava so it's pretty cool Demare does thisKing Boonen said:Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
I don't know about that, Demare really had a big kick at the end of that race so I still think he wins but it would of been a lot closer.max_powers said:Great Discussion.
If Bouhanni's chain did not slip (FSA cranks suck imo) we would not be having it.
That's bike racing
Oh my apologies, the capital 'ALL' just happened to be completely coincidental thenKing Boonen said:This is really strange. I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post but you are replying as if I did.trucido said:Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.King Boonen said:Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Is that you Carly?
Hi Carly,trucido said:Oh my apologies, the capital 'ALL' just happened to be completely coincidental thenKing Boonen said:This is really strange. I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post but you are replying as if I did.trucido said:Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.King Boonen said:Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Is that you Carly?![]()
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Indeed.jaylew said:The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...jaylew said:The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Did Tosatto give this out of the blue, or did the Italian Federation just get around to asking based on the contemporaneous complaints?PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
From what I read there's no suggestion this is a recent development, more that Tosatto was only asked about it recently.Nick C. said:Did Tosatto give this out of the blue, or did the Italian Federation just get around to asking based on the contemporaneous complaints?PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Im truth and I still would love to know the french. Or something like that !Põhja Konn said:Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.
Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
Fair enough. Does a fat sticky bottle reverse a result? When the guy had been delayed by someone else's crash? Tough call. With so many motos and journos, how come there's nothing on tape? Which goes back to the threads about security, what are all these guys doing? I'm working on a Pinot video, and at the '15 GDL, Nibali got almost murdered when a motorbike had no clue about placement.veji11 said:Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...jaylew said:The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Now if Tossatto has proof, he should bring it on, writing a letter saying "I saw what I saw and I stand by it" is fair enough, but without proof it's called defamation.
Way to misinterpret a message to suit your own thinking. Snippet from the Cyclingnews article:Põhja Konn said:Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.
Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
Yeah, which remains good old dirty defamation without evidence or corroborating witnesses... We can all pretty much surmised what happened :trucido said:Way to misinterpret a message to suit your own thinking. Snippet from the Cyclingnews article:Põhja Konn said:Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.
Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
"I’m not interested in fuelling the polemic any further, I’ve nothing personal against him and he’s definitely a great rider," Tosatto said.
"But I’ve no regrets about what I said because I saw it. I also repeated it to the Italian Cycling Federation investigators who contacted me for an explanation. I didn’t speak to them in person but sent them some emails."
All he stated was that he was contacted and stands by his comments.
Thanks for bringing this up, since it's not often discussed in the Anglo-American media (even though they were aping many of these same attitudes at the time).veji11 said:Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...jaylew said:The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
eh? defamation is an intentionally false statement which defames a person's reputation or character. You're a little confused about where the onus of proof lies here.veji11 said:Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...jaylew said:The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.PremierAndrew said:Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.
Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Now if Tossatto has proof, he should bring it on, writing a letter saying "I saw what I saw and I stand by it" is fair enough, but without proof it's called defamation.
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