107th Milano - Sanremo, 19th March 2016, 291 km, WT

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Re:

Escarabajo said:
Alexandre B.,
If the other parties involved are keeping quiet it does not mean that they agree with Demare. In fact it makes it worse.

Releasing the data is very simple. And it does not compare with the Froome case. These are two complete different cases. One can be picked up easily and the other one is a more complicated one and involves several calculations. With the case of Demare is simple: no power at double the speed= big tow!
And the data will probably show a sticky bottle for 100 meters or so, which won't bring any closure, sway anyone. So I see a parallel with Froome, or Saddam: Froome's detractors say that the data is incomplete, the VO2Max manipulated, and didn't get convinced a bit. I'm one of them. Recent polls show that a majority of the American public still believes that Saddam had WMD. Why? Because they made their mind a long time ago and will never admit that they were wrong. For them, a tube of aspirin in Saddam's night-stand would be evidence of a chemical program.

I don't see many like you who would have the honesty to look at facts and draw a conclusion, without letting feelings get in the way. That was a compliment :) . Afaic, I have expressed doubts at one point: holding onto a car as it was described was worth a DQ. No ifs, not buts. I didn't like the deletion of a Strava file. In retrospect, I can see a reason when I read between the lines: FDJ doesn't have many friends these days. If it comes down to a judgement call (i.e. was a sticky bottle crossing the line?), why release the tube of aspirin?

To you, a sticky bottle can be OK at times, on the Cipressa it's a no-no. I would counter-argue that Cipressa is OK, but on the last climb (in this case the Poggio), not so much. I give Demare a small break because he got tangled up in a crash that he had nothing to do with, made up (almost all of) his deficit "a la pedale". No honest person can blame him for drafting: how do you pass all these cars?

I recognized being somewhat biased. But I'm open-minded. If more comes up, I'll have no qualms admitting that I was wrong and call for a DQ. But what I saw thus far, that's as I put it, the female elephant delivering a mice...
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

Tonton said:
Escarabajo said:
Alexandre B.,
If the other parties involved are keeping quiet it does not mean that they agree with Demare. In fact it makes it worse.

Releasing the data is very simple. And it does not compare with the Froome case. These are two complete different cases. One can be picked up easily and the other one is a more complicated one and involves several calculations. With the case of Demare is simple: no power at double the speed= big tow!
And the data will probably show a sticky bottle for 100 meters or so, which won't bring any closure, sway anyone. So I see a parallel with Froome, or Saddam: Froome's detractors say that the data is incomplete, the VO2Max manipulated, and didn't get convinced a bit. I'm one of them. Recent polls show that a majority of the American public still believes that Saddam had WMD. Why? Because they made their mind a long time ago and will never admit that they were wrong. For them, a tube of aspirin in Saddam's night-stand would be evidence of a chemical program.

I don't see many like you who would have the honesty to look at facts and draw a conclusion, without letting feelings get in the way. That was a compliment :) . Afaic, I have expressed doubts at one point: holding onto a car as it was described was worth a DQ. No ifs, not buts. I didn't like the deletion of a Strava file. In retrospect, I can see a reason when I read between the lines: FDJ doesn't have many friends these days. If it comes down to a judgement call (i.e. was a sticky bottle crossing the line?), why release the tube of aspirin?

To you, a sticky bottle can be OK at times, on the Cipressa it's a no-no. I would counter-argue that Cipressa is OK, but on the last climb (in this case the Poggio), not so much. I give Demare a small break because he got tangled up in a crash that he had nothing to do with, made up (almost all of) his deficit "a la pedale". No honest person can blame him for drafting: how do you pass all these cars?

I recognized being somewhat biased. But I'm open-minded. If more comes up, I'll have no qualms admitting that I was wrong and call for a DQ. But what I saw thus far, that's as I put it, the female elephant delivering a mice...
Same, as I said it here already, I am pretty sure that Démare did benefit from a Sticky bottle at some point in the Cippressa + of course once he was back in the cars got benefit from drafting like everybody else in those circumstances.

If the data underlines this, what purpose does it serve ? Should he be DQed for a sticky bottle in the cippressa ? this is like changing doping rules in retrospect so that you can DQ a posteriori all riders who used anti-asthma medication in the last few years. Bonkers.

If the Démare incident underlines the fact that sticky bottles and drafting are still very much used and should be minimized, great.

Put putting blame on him for doing what everybody does in those circumstances is a bit rich.
 
Re: Re:

trucido said:
King Boonen said:
Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.
This is really strange. I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post but you are replying as if I did.

Is that you Carly?
 
At this point, even if data proves a lift, nothing can be done. I agree with both of you :) . There are no rules on how to handle this type of data anyway. Releasing the data would just be to prove his accusers wrong. That's all.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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max_powers said:
Great Discussion.

If Bouhanni's chain did not slip (FSA cranks suck imo) we would not be having it.

That's bike racing
Very true... But indeed this is bike racing. Bouhanni had his Andy Schleck 2010 moment.. too bad for him, he thought he had a plan...
 
Oct 10, 2015
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Re:

King Boonen said:
Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Have to agree with this, as I said i'm for releasing all Data but that's from all riders but that's a bigger conversation and so much about this conversation. In this case Demare published his Data on Strava and as in the past he removed the heart rate and power sections of the upload which he always does with his Stava files, I wish more riders would upload rides to Stava so it's pretty cool Demare does this
 
Oct 10, 2015
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max_powers said:
Great Discussion.

If Bouhanni's chain did not slip (FSA cranks suck imo) we would not be having it.

That's bike racing
I don't know about that, Demare really had a big kick at the end of that race so I still think he wins but it would of been a lot closer.

Oh and YES FSA rings aren't that great
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
trucido said:
King Boonen said:
Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.
This is really strange. I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post but you are replying as if I did.

Is that you Carly?
Oh my apologies, the capital 'ALL' just happened to be completely coincidental then :rolleyes:
 
Re: Re:

trucido said:
King Boonen said:
trucido said:
King Boonen said:
Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.
This is really strange. I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post but you are replying as if I did.

Is that you Carly?
Oh my apologies, the capital 'ALL' just happened to be completely coincidental then :rolleyes:
Hi Carly,

Yes, it is. I hadn't actually read your posts, in fact I've only just done it now to see what you were talking about. Lots of other people ar talking abut the data too, it's not something you happen to have stumbled upon yourself.
 
Re:

PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.
 
Re: Re:

jaylew said:
PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.
Indeed.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

jaylew said:
PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.
Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...

Now if Tossatto has proof, he should bring it on, writing a letter saying "I saw what I saw and I stand by it" is fair enough, but without proof it's called defamation.
 
Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.

Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Re:

PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Did Tosatto give this out of the blue, or did the Italian Federation just get around to asking based on the contemporaneous complaints?
 
Re: Re:

Nick C. said:
PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
Did Tosatto give this out of the blue, or did the Italian Federation just get around to asking based on the contemporaneous complaints?
From what I read there's no suggestion this is a recent development, more that Tosatto was only asked about it recently.
 
Re:

Põhja Konn said:
Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.

Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
Im truth and I still would love to know the french. Or something like that !

To be serious, I entirely agree. No more FACTUAL evidence ? Get over with it and keep living for gods sake Tosatto. But if he brings some serious proof of what he might have seen, I would be happy to see this.
 
Re: Re:

veji11 said:
jaylew said:
PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.
Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...

Now if Tossatto has proof, he should bring it on, writing a letter saying "I saw what I saw and I stand by it" is fair enough, but without proof it's called defamation.
Fair enough. Does a fat sticky bottle reverse a result? When the guy had been delayed by someone else's crash? Tough call. With so many motos and journos, how come there's nothing on tape? Which goes back to the threads about security, what are all these guys doing? I'm working on a Pinot video, and at the '15 GDL, Nibali got almost murdered when a motorbike had no clue about placement.

Is the "Pantani was killed by the mafia" topic dying and the feisty Italian media needs more/new drama? Probably. Scandals... in a sick way I like it. At least it's passion. Whether I agree or not.
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Re:

Põhja Konn said:
Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.

Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
Way to misinterpret a message to suit your own thinking. Snippet from the Cyclingnews article:

"I’m not interested in fuelling the polemic any further, I’ve nothing personal against him and he’s definitely a great rider," Tosatto said.

"But I’ve no regrets about what I said because I saw it. I also repeated it to the Italian Cycling Federation investigators who contacted me for an explanation. I didn’t speak to them in person but sent them some emails."


All he stated was that he was contacted and stands by his comments.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

trucido said:
Põhja Konn said:
Nothing new has come up to support the accusations against Demare during the month and a half that has passed from the end of the race. No new witnesses corroborating with Tossato, no video evidence, nothing. All this tells me that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with regards to sticky bottles and hanging onto cars.

Taking that into consideration, Tossatos unwillingness to let it go is above all,telling a thing or two about Tossato himself and his attitude.
Way to misinterpret a message to suit your own thinking. Snippet from the Cyclingnews article:

"I’m not interested in fuelling the polemic any further, I’ve nothing personal against him and he’s definitely a great rider," Tosatto said.

"But I’ve no regrets about what I said because I saw it. I also repeated it to the Italian Cycling Federation investigators who contacted me for an explanation. I didn’t speak to them in person but sent them some emails."


All he stated was that he was contacted and stands by his comments.
Yeah, which remains good old dirty defamation without evidence or corroborating witnesses... We can all pretty much surmised what happened :
1/ Démare and the FDJ had to work hard to come back after being blocked by the Fall, but Démare not being injured by it (as opposed to Matthews) nor having technical issues was making up time regularly.
2/ Démare and the FDJ most certainly used some good ol tricks like a good fat sticky bottle to have a short breather.
3/ Démare eventually made it back in and won MSR having been blessed by luck between Gaviria's crash disorganizing some competitors and Bouhanni's gears getting stucked.

Good for him, he had all the luck he needed and then some.

Is there any evidence any where of him flying at 80kms/H up the Poggio riding on the windshield of the FDJ car ? Nah...

Let it go guys...
 
Apr 12, 2009
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Re: Re:

veji11 said:
jaylew said:
PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.
Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...
Thanks for bringing this up, since it's not often discussed in the Anglo-American media (even though they were aping many of these same attitudes at the time).
 
Jul 28, 2012
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Re: Re:

veji11 said:
jaylew said:
PremierAndrew said:
Looks like the chapter isn't closed yet.

Tosatto has given a written statement to the Italian Cycling Federation about what he saw regarding Demare's chase behind the peloton on the Cipressa
The worst part is Madiot playing the "French victim" card. So lame. As if everyone hates the French and don't wan't them to win big races - so pathetic and it undermines his argument. All most people care cares about is the truth coming out.
Well the whole "francese di merda" thing wasn't plucked out of thin air guys... The way french riders were treated in the 2000s by spaniard and italians full to the gills with success wasn't pretty. For some guys it's still pretty much a trauma and Tossatto is a part of that generation...

Now if Tossatto has proof, he should bring it on, writing a letter saying "I saw what I saw and I stand by it" is fair enough, but without proof it's called defamation.
eh? defamation is an intentionally false statement which defames a person's reputation or character. You're a little confused about where the onus of proof lies here.

I think Tossato has basically sounded like a reasonable witness through this whole thing. How is his statement in question? Stealth offers of formaggio from the Italian cycling federation?
 

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