107th Milano - Sanremo, 19th March 2016, 291 km, WT

[WildspokeJoe]

This can be solved rather quickly. Look at his raised arms as he crosses the finish line. If one is longer than the other, boom - he's guilty.

Clearly there were some shenanigans. But nothing is going to happen so... On to E3!

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I can't get my head around why Tosatto, with more than 30 GTs in his legs, would risk his reputation on a lie in this manner.

Why would he be risking his reputation? No one will care about this incident in a few days

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

It's part of cycling and always has been: we profit from the draft of the cars. They block the wind. It is not forbidden"

Umm, yes, yes it is. I mean, it's not really what people are on him about, and the commissionaires rarely enforce it (but they do actually penalize it every so often), but he should know that it is explicitly verboten.

Rule 19.2.1. (Sheltering behind or falling into the slip stream of a vehicle - For some time) One-Day Race 50 + elimination for failure to heed 1st warning.

There really are some bad losers in every sport... It's natural that they don't like seeing a 24 year-old French rider winning their race... I sense a little jealousy from some of our rivals after our third place in the team time trial at Tirreno.

Come on, "they hate me because I'm young and French" is a little crass. Next time go with young, rich and beautiful, or as they call it in football, the Cristiano Ronaldo hat-trick.

So all-in, for cycling standards, a good win by Démare. He took a bidon, apparently at twice the speed of the rest of the riders, although not at twice at their average speed of 40-odd kph on the Cipressa but twice the 20-odd kph they were going in that particular section. But that's really "part of cycling and always has been", particularly after a rider takes a fall like Démare did. I don't like it, while it seems fair in theory to give a rider a break after a crash it lends itself to a little too much subjectivity. But I actually dislike the surfing through the caravans even more, because it's surely going to lead to more dangerous crashes. But again, unless there's damning footage, the commissionaires usually let those sticky bottles go. And at the end of the day if the UCI isn't going to enforce the rules, it's hard to blame the riders for bending them (although they should at least know what those rules are).

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

It's natural that they don't like seeing a 24 year-old French rider winning their race...

Wheeling out such a lame excuse actually makes me more suspicious of Démare.

 

[trucido]

It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.

 

[Jakub]

Yes, it seems clear that he did a nibali. The problem is also thr rules IMHO, Nibali should have gotten a 2 years ban for what he did, there was a perfect evidence.

On the other hand I don't want Swift to be declared a winner

 

[staubsauger]

At least Demare earned his right to keep on being overrated in great fashion!

 

[Metabolol]

Very arrogant comments from Demare and it makes me even more convinced that he cheated.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

FDJ is one of only three World Tour teams without any Italian staff members - this explains quite a bit. And:

"There really are some bad losers in every sport! "

 

[King Boonen]

So much butt-hurt. I'm guessing many of you are typing while lying in bed as I can't believe you're able to sit in a chair with this amount of discomfort.

 

[Scarponi]

I know Demare came back and had the balls to win after the way he cheated but you have to ask how did Matthews even get back to where he got to with the picture of the blood loss i saw earlier.

 

[Alexandre B.]

It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.

Denial.

 

[veji11]

It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.

Man, some posters really...

Démare obviously used the tricks that are in the book and have been used for many decades : the sticky bottle and draft from cars once you are getting closer to the Peloton. Is that great ? No it isn't, the fact that it has been done for ages doesn't make it any better, but what he did is nothing out of the ordinary sadly :
- The sticky bottle happens 10s of times a race unfortunately
- Whenever a rider or a small group of riders get back to the peloton after a fall or mechanical, once they get to the cars they all weave around getting max draft until they make it to the peloton. This is why we hear commentators say things like "they have to make it to the cars and they'll be fine"...

As to the fact that Démare went on to ride at the front and win whereas Matthews never quite made it back.. Guys just look at Matthews jersey !!

Matthews had a massive fall and got well burnt whereas Démare was just stuck in it. It is very plausible Matthews got pulled by his teammates but with the shock and pain couldn't quite make it whereas Démare at some point jumped away from the Oricas.

My take would be that before the halfpoint of the Cippressa as the Orica were not going fast enough because Matthews was not doing well, Démare jumped ahead and made it to his car where he got the nice little sticky bottle for just a few secs and hop on you go again. AND Démare benefited from the fact that the peloton really slowed down on the last parts of the Cippressa after the breakaway had been chased.

Is it fantastic ? no.

Is it cheating ? .... Come on, how many sprinters would see the Champs Elysées ? How many riders would get penalties after every flat tire or mechanical ???

 

[max_powers]

Re:

there is some food for thought
1. 2 riders complain about assistance. Not just one but 2. No gain for them. The French cyclists have been complaining about doping vociferously so maybe the others decided to expose french methods of cheating in order to get back. If more come up then it becomes substantial
2. Deletion of strava files & reuploading without power curves. Why delete if not afraid. power curves may show a sudden dip in power.
3. Fastest ascent by non climber- Short hill, comparatively lower gradient, Drafting behind cars make it maybe possible
80 kmph is exaggeration for sure. But these 3 facts pose some difficult questions for Demare whether sticky bottle or tow or drafting behind cars.

1. We saw Demare go long in his recent Paris nice win, Dude can go and has proved it recently.
2. we see Sticky Bottles all day long, clearly on video, in just about every race.
3. tech stuff like Strava? garbage in garbage out, too shetchy to be reliable.

He won the race on the road, probably took a bottle to launch his return to peloton. FDJ is doing something right, proven by recent TTT

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

there is some food for thought
1. 2 riders complain about assistance. Not just one but 2. No gain for them. The French cyclists have been complaining about doping vociferously so maybe the others decided to expose french methods of cheating in order to get back. If more come up then it becomes substantial
2. Deletion of strava files & reuploading without power curves. Why delete if not afraid. power curves may show a sudden dip in power.
3. Fastest ascent by non climber- Short hill, comparatively lower gradient, Drafting behind cars make it maybe possible
80 kmph is exaggeration for sure. But these 3 facts pose some difficult questions for Demare whether sticky bottle or tow or drafting behind cars.

1. We saw Demare go long in his recent Paris nice win, Dude can go and has proved it recently.
2. we see Sticky Bottles all day long, clearly on video, in just about every race.
3. tech stuff like Strava? garbage in garbage out, too shetchy to be reliable.

He won the race on the road, probably took a bottle to launch his return to peloton. FDJ is doing something right, proven by recent TTT

+1.

Sticky bottles suck and have sucked for 10s of years, but they endure. To get rid of them would be real hard.

 

[Escarabajo]

Veji, sticky bottle in the Cipressa is a no-no. It is different to the sticky bottle that we are used to see.

Last year on the Ape D'huez stage riders were hanging onto cars left and right on the flat. They also need to get back to the group before the climb starts. Once on the climb it is a huge no-no. I saw a broadcast from Spain and the English one also. When Geniez for a second hung onto the window of the coach car on Alpe, all commentators jumped immediately. It is simply not the same. Let's not make it like a normal thing because you need to know where to do it.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Veji, sticky bottle in the Cipressa is a no-no. It is different to the sticky bottle that we are used to see.

Last year on the Ape D'huez stage riders were hanging onto cars left and right on the flat. They also need to get back to the group before the climb starts. Once on the climb it is a huge no-no. I saw a broadcast from Spain and the English one also. When Geniez for a second hung onto the window of the coach car on Alpe, all commentators jumped immediately. It is simply not the same. Let's not make it like a normal thing because you need to know where to do it.

The cipressa is not the Alpe d'Huez and it's 20k away from the finish line AND I don't see why a sticky bottle would be acceptable on the flat and not on a climb. Should a skinny climber be allowed to get a sticky botte in crosswinds on the flat ???

More generally, sticky bottles are a problem, but I like many others here just want to point that vilification of Démare on that basis makes no sense whatsoever. he did something that isn't classy but that is regrettably done every day by tens of riders on every racce.

 

[Escarabajo]

Depends on the situation. I think we all have the capabilities of knowing when too much is too much. Cipressa No. IMHO.

Also another thing I forgot. Sticky bottle with acceleration is different to a one without changing speed. It looks like he changed speed.

 

[SafeBet]

I think the whole "stickly bottles are bad but we can live with that while holding onto a car is unacceptable" stinks.
Either both behaviours are sanctioned (as it should be) or none of them is. For how long a sticky bottle is acceptable? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Is it equally acceptable on the flat or on a climb? Being part of the break or trying to get back after a crash? Who draws the line?

Because let's be clear on this, there's no difference whatsoever in being towed by a car or being towed by a bottle which is incidentally on a car.

 

[del1962]

I don't have a problem with riders getting caught in crash or mechanical making their way through the cars like Demare as long as it is not too blatant, if I rider is dropped it is another matter though

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

For this to happen, FDJ team car is presumably going to drop back and have Demare grab the window as the GreenEdge guys get left behind.

I can't imagine random Italians would say something but the group of GreenEdge riders that got screwed over just stay silent.

The 36 second gap between Demare and Matthews at the end does beg the question though - it seems implausible that Matthews got cooked from the chase, whilst Demare (with precisely the same effort) was fresh enough not merely to be in position for the sprint, but to win it. Implausible because the way Matthews rode Paris-Nice suggests he was in very good nick.

So how is it that one gets back on and arrives in good enough position on the poggio to challenge, whilst the other is more or less dead last when they hit the poggio, and more less finishes dead last of the front group?

It really does beg the question.

When I watched it live, I assumed Demare got back on very quickly whilst Matthews, who was on the deck for a lot longer, had far more of a chase. Didn't realise they were chasing together.

You answered the question in your last paragraph - Matthews was injured - No point comparing the two riders.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

Depends on the situation. I think we all have the capabilities of knowing when too much is too much. Cipressa No. IMHO.

Also another thing I forgot. Sticky bottle with acceleration is different to a one without changing speed. It looks like he changed speed.

Nail on the head. Sticky bottle to go up the Cipressa, one of basically two places where a difference can be made and where the field can attempt to tire out a sprinter's legs is simply not ok. Especially in a race the magnitude of MSR. Démare knows that which is why he deleted the original file. Not a true champion in my book.

 

[veji11]

Re:

I think the whole "stickly bottles are bad but we can live with that while holding onto a car is unacceptable" stinks.
Either both behaviours are sanctioned (as it should be) or none of them is. For how long a sticky bottle is acceptable? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Is it equally acceptable on the flat or on a climb? Being part of the break or trying to get back after a crash? Who draws the line?

Because let's be clear on this, there's no difference whatsoever in being towed by a car or being towed by a bottle which is incidentally on a car.

I agree. If this petty Démare accusation fest has one positive is that we look again at the sticky bottle situation. But my point like many here is that this individual sticky bottle does not warrant the barrage of criticism Démare got as if he cheated. He still came back from the fall, dropped Matthews, got to the end of the peloton and went back to the front at the beginning of the Poggio, descended and survived the last 2 flat kms to have his winning sprint.

 

[Tonton]

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/how-the-race-was-won-2016-milan-san-remo/

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Depends on the situation. I think we all have the capabilities of knowing when too much is too much. Cipressa No. IMHO.

Also another thing I forgot. Sticky bottle with acceleration is different to a one without changing speed. It looks like he changed speed.

Nail on the head. Sticky bottle to go up the Cipressa, one of basically two places where a difference can be made and where the field can attempt to tire out a sprinter's legs is simply not ok. Especially in a race the magnitude of MSR. Démare knows that which is why he deleted the original file. Not a true champion in my book.

Meh... really the car didn't appear there miraculously, it isn't as if Démare was dropping from the bunch in the Cippressa and when dropping all the way to his car in some ways slingshoted back up David/Goliath style to make it to the top and then miraculously survive the Poggio and win.

No Démare was coming back from behin, got up to the line of cars and clearly used that moment to his advantage either with drafting or with a sticky bottle to keep going up to the bunch, dropping other riders in the process.

Again is it great that sticky bottles/drafting happen ? no.

Is Démare's victory some sort of a travesty with a winner who simply benefited from cheating to get there ? Please.. the legs were there and what he did was what we see many times.

I'd even wager that it has happened quite a few times already in the Cippressa for other riders in a similar situation, it's just that they never managed to go all the way to win so we don't talk about it.