107th Milano - Sanremo, 19th March 2016, 291 km, WT

[Metabolol]

He was hanging onto his team car up a climb and flying past other riders in the process. That is cheating. It doesn't matter if it was 40km/h or 80km/h.[/quote]
Was he? Or was he drafting? You denounce the Sky doubters, but you ain't no better. Your two witnesses, we have now proof, have completely misrepresented the situation. Or lied. They're not "reliable witnesses". And that's what started it all. No complaint from the Sky guys, who should know, the Orica Guys, nothing. Isn't that strange? After all, Swift would get the win...think about it.[/quote]

Why aren't they reliable witnesses? Do you know these two riders? They also ride for two different teams, did they sit down after the race and cook up the story because they are jealous of the french?

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

As per Strava files available Demare had the best time of all for the last 27k better with 36 sec better than GVA who finished fourth and was always at the front. So, he either is a supercharged superman or some foul play was going on. Bling finished exactly 36 sec. down.

The weird thing is that the time gaps don't show a big swing, as one would expect if it was a quick pull hanging on the car. Cadence/speed don't show a sharp pike or drop. What do you think?

 

[luckyboy]

So there is footage of him with Matthews at the bottom, not drafting or towing

Then there are photos of him with Matthews 2.5km from the top, not drafting or towing

And then in the footage of him 1km from the top (23.2km to go) about 10 seconds behind the peloton. He is behind a black (BMC?) car which is pulling away before they go out of shot.

 

[TMP402]

It's true no-one from Orica appears to have said he was cheating, but none of them have said "this is silly, we never saw any evidence of cheating" either. On this issue I don't find it convincing to cite as evidence the silence of others.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

As per Strava files available Demare had the best time of all for the last 27k better with 36 sec better than GVA who finished fourth and was always at the front. So, he either is a supercharged superman or some foul play was going on. Bling finished exactly 36 sec. down.

The weird thing is that the time gaps don't show a big swing, as one would expect if it was a quick pull hanging on the car. Cadence/speed don't show a sharp pike or drop. What do you think?

I don't know, drafting, sticky bottle to conserve energy, race commissars busy looking at the landscapes, a stronger Demare than thought. These things happen, what is surprising is that the peloton omerta was broken by Capechi and Tosatto. If not for that helicopter shots of Nibs speeding with Shefer the rally driver, he could've gotten away with it. I bet none of the guys he left in the dust would've said a word afterwards.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

As per Strava files available Demare had the best time of all for the last 27k better with 36 sec better than GVA who finished fourth and was always at the front. So, he either is a supercharged superman or some foul play was going on. Bling finished exactly 36 sec. down.

The weird thing is that the time gaps don't show a big swing, as one would expect if it was a quick pull hanging on the car. Cadence/speed don't show a sharp pike or drop. What do you think?

What about the post by Saganist? Doesn't that suggest a little?

 

[SeriousSam]

Increased scrutinity and less acceptance of cyclists being up to their old tricks is a welcome development

 

[PeterB]

Re:

Analyzing in details the strava data of Demare, I could only find this acceleration (and then deceleration) that could be weird. 43.6 km/h in a 4.4 grade while Van Avaermaet (front group) was riding steadily at 24.8 km/h. It may seem short, but actually Demare took about 14 seconds back on the front group during this acceleration.

I do not mean it as a proof of a tow, just having fun with data!

This could very well be it! Not too long a tow for Demare and Guesdon feeling too bad about it, but noticeable enough for Tossato and Capecchi and definitely helping Demare a lot.

 

[Tonton]

Why aren't they reliable witnesses? Do you know these two riders? They also ride for two different teams, did they sit down after the race and cook up the story because they are jealous of the french?

Capecchi rides a bike for a living, so I assume that he knows what 40 km/h is, what 50 km/h is, and he said 80 km/h. You call that reliable? That's a huge exaggeration, or worse, a big fat lie. I don't know what the French have to do with that: maybe for you it does matter. If so, I'm sorry for you. All I can point at are the posts that show data, time-gaps, speed, and cadence, and you'll see nothing as described by the two bozos. No spikes, no drops indicating a sudden change. Could it be that chasing, and therefore cars to pass offering shelter, was some sort of blessing in disguise? FDJ doesn't dispute the sticky bottle, but here again the data doesn't show anything suspicious, which would tell us when it took place. So here we are arguing and the elephant is delivering a mice as we French say. Not much of anything, unless you want to believe a guy who saw Demare go 80 km/h when it is a fact that he never did: not even close.

 

[Metabolol]

Why aren't they reliable witnesses? Do you know these two riders? They also ride for two different teams, did they sit down after the race and cook up the story because they are jealous of the french?

Capecchi rides a bike for a living, so I assume that he knows what 40 km/h is, what 50 km/h is, and he said 80 km/h. You call that reliable? That's a huge exaggeration, or worse, a big fat lie. I don't know what the French have to do with that: maybe for you it does matter. If so, I'm sorry for you. All I can point at are the posts that show data, time-gaps, speed, and cadence, and you'll see nothing as described by the two bozos. No spikes, no drops indicating a sudden change. Could it be that chasing, and therefore cars to pass offering shelter, was some sort of blessing in disguise? FDJ doesn't dispute the sticky bottle, but here again the data doesn't show anything suspicious, which would tell us when it took place. So here we are arguing and the elephant is delivering a mice as we French say. Not much of anything, unless you want to believe a guy who saw Demare go 80 km/h when it is a fact that he never did: not even close.

No, I don't care if he is french or not. It's irrelevant for me. But you still didn't explain why two people independently say they saw him cheating. How do you explain what Tossatto said? Maybe Cappechi exaggerated about the speed but there could still be blatant cheating going on.

Here is what Tossatto said ''I’ve never seen a thing like that done so shamelessly". Those are strong words by someome who has been a pro for almost 20 years. Just jealousy and italian mentality (as FDJ claim)?

 

[TMP402]

I can't get my head around why Tosatto, with more than 30 GTs in his legs, would risk his reputation on a lie in this manner.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Analyzing in details the strava data of Demare, I could only find this acceleration (and then deceleration) that could be weird. 43.6 km/h in a 4.4 grade while Van Avaermaet (front group) was riding steadily at 24.8 km/h. It may seem short, but actually Demare took about 14 seconds back on the front group during this acceleration.

I do not mean it as a proof of a tow, just having fun with data!

This could very well be it! Not too long a tow for Demare and Guesdon feeling too bad about it, but noticeable enough for Tossato and Capecchi and definitely helping Demare a lot.

This probably is it, a sticky bottle for 100m max according to the graph.

How far we have come since the hanging on Ayrton Senna's car theory, aren't we ? And i'd like to point out that unlike some, I expressed doubts. I am happy that he won, but GVA or Sagan would have worked for me.

A sticky bottle after a crash, nothing wrong with that IMO. 14 seconds made up if correct when he lost about 30 according to the posts and video, for a crash he didn't provoke: that's not cheating IMO. Anyone in his shoes would have done it, and refs could have seen it and not called it.

 

[IndianCyclist]

there is some food for thought
1. 2 riders complain about assistance. Not just one but 2. No gain for them. The French cyclists have been complaining about doping vociferously so maybe the others decided to expose french methods of cheating in order to get back. If more come up then it becomes substantial
2. Deletion of strava files & reuploading without power curves. Why delete if not afraid. power curves may show a sudden dip in power.
3. Fastest ascent by non climber- Short hill, comparatively lower gradient, Drafting behind cars make it maybe possible
80 kmph is exaggeration for sure. But these 3 facts pose some difficult questions for Demare whether sticky bottle or tow or drafting behind cars.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

I can't get my head around why Tosatto, with more than 30 GTs in his legs, would risk his reputation on a lie in this manner.

He wouldn't. A sticky bottle on the Cipressa at MSR isn't ok, anyway, crash or no. And I don't trust the files, the way they were handled.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

I can't get my head around why Tosatto, with more than 30 GTs in his legs, would risk his reputation on a lie in this manner.

Because there's bad blood between Tinkov and Madiot. The same goes for Astana riders. It's human to overreact when someone you don't like does something that you would otherwise accept. In the heat of the moment, things get said that were taken to the first degree, like the 80 km/h. "I've never seen this in my life" is one of those. I would bet Hugo Koblet's avatar that they saw the sticky bottle, and in the end made a much bigger deal of it than it deserved. That's not lying. That's exaggerating. That's being...Mediterranean?

 

[Carols]

Well the aftermath is much more interesting than the race that is for sure!!!!

 

[Tonton]

Re:

there is some food for thought
1. 2 riders complain about assistance. Not just one but 2. No gain for them. The French cyclists have been complaining about doping vociferously so maybe the others decided to expose french methods of cheating in order to get back. If more come up then it becomes substantial
2. Deletion of strava files & reuploading without power curves. Why delete if not afraid. power curves may show a sudden dip in power.
3. Fastest ascent by non climber- Short hill, comparatively lower gradient, Drafting behind cars make it maybe possible
80 kmph is exaggeration for sure. But these 3 facts pose some difficult questions for Demare whether sticky bottle or tow or drafting behind cars.

Good points, and un-biased for a change. No gain for them? See my previous post. I think that some of what they said was taken to the first degree. The files? Demare obviously tried to hide the sticky bottle episode, yet when looking at consistent cadence, consistent speed, I don't know anybody who would keep pedaling at the same rate when pulled by a car. The Saganist post seems to show a sticky bottle. Big mistake on Demare's part to delete the file: he tried to hide a tree when he could have showed that there was no forest. The whole thing was blown out of proportion, like never before, and yes, you wonder if there's no anti-French reason behind it.

 

[Escarabajo]

Sticky bottle on the Cipressa is a no-no.

Tonton, I saw a peak on the charts shown by Saganist. Power files would have probably shown a drop in power.

Good summary IndianCyclist

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

I can't get my head around why Tosatto, with more than 30 GTs in his legs, would risk his reputation on a lie in this manner.

I don't think he did and neither did the Astana rider


Nibali held on to a car at the Vuelta and only for the pictures we would have never known and it was clear lots of riders saw Nibali..but no one opened their mouth

Riders don't ...they probably figure I could need a contract next year and I wont shop the leader of a team . and even if I did what good would it do anyway.
Same with DSs, etc...may need a job or they have probably done it at some stage themselves

But don't believe either Tossatto or other rider lied...They just said what they saw

And the evidence is Matthews go on to the peloton long after Demare
They were climbing the poggio when Matthews got back
They were on the the descent of the Capressa when Demare was already at the back

That photo btw of OGE and Demare is long before the Cipressa climb started

The problem for riders is the bending of rules which they all do can be taken too far at times and leave some of them missing out ..but if they don't do something about it then how can anyone else

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Sticky bottle on the Cipressa is a no-no.

Tonton, I saw a peak on the charts shown by Saganist. Power files would have probably shown a drop in power.

Good summary IndianCyclist

I don't have a problem with the sticky bottle on the Cipressa considering the no-fault crash and the fact that he made up most of his deficit (some said one minute - what is 14 seconds?) by sheer stubbornness. We can disagree. At least you didn't execute him before the facts came to light. Props.

 

[luckyboy]

These photos are 2km up Cipressa not "long before the climb started"

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@43.8531805,7.9518698,3a,75y,135h,57.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCrxz-xXKNPHE6Ik6Wxc9qA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[luckyboy]

For this to happen, FDJ team car is presumably going to drop back and have Demare grab the window as the GreenEdge guys get left behind.

I can't imagine random Italians would say something but the group of GreenEdge riders that got screwed over just stay silent.

 

[ferryman]

Wah wah wah cyclist cheats to win. If he did..who knows and who cares... Sometimes I wonder.. tis PRO cycling folks, live with it...

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

For this to happen, FDJ team car is presumably going to drop back and have Demare grab the window as the GreenEdge guys get left behind.

I can't imagine random Italians would say something but the group of GreenEdge riders that got screwed over just stay silent.

The 36 second gap between Demare and Matthews at the end does beg the question though - it seems implausible that Matthews got cooked from the chase, whilst Demare (with precisely the same effort) was fresh enough not merely to be in position for the sprint, but to win it. Implausible because the way Matthews rode Paris-Nice suggests he was in very good nick.

So how is it that one gets back on and arrives in good enough position on the poggio to challenge, whilst the other is more or less dead last when they hit the poggio, and more less finishes dead last of the front group?

It really does beg the question.

When I watched it live, I assumed Demare got back on very quickly whilst Matthews, who was on the deck for a lot longer, had far more of a chase. Didn't realise they were chasing together.

 

[TMP402]

Re:

Wah wah wah cyclist cheats to win. If he did..who knows and who cares... Sometimes I wonder.. tis PRO cycling folks, live with it...

Wow