107th Milano - Sanremo, 19th March 2016, 291 km, WT

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Mar 15, 2016
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Alexandre B. said:
trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Denial. :cool:
Aww.....can't handle that your boy had to cheat to win? How cute.
 
demare said there was a comissaire near him when he received the bottle. so,when the jury was confronted with these allegations, they probably did two things:
1) find the footage to corroborate the allegations
2) talk to the comissaries in the race

1) clearly didn't work and regarding 2), the comissaire that saw demare receive the bottle apparently saw nothing out of the ordinary. it was a normal 3-4 second bottle delivery.
 
Re: Re:

veji11 said:
I'd even wager that it has happened quite a few times already in the Cippressa for other riders in a similar situation, it's just that they never managed to go all the way to win so we don't talk about it.
Good post. I've been lurking here for a few pages and finally someone said it.

Riders get drafts from cars and sticky bottles all the time, every race. At some point in time we're going to reach a point where someone gets a serious draft, or serious sticky bottle at a key moment and goes on to win the race. I don't think we crossed that at M-SR. But asomeone is going to get caught on video doing it big time, and then it's up to see if the officials have the guts to DQ them.

I'm also wondering when officials make the rule that bottles must be grabbed palm forward, thus making sticky bottles much less useful.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
veji11 said:
I'd even wager that it has happened quite a few times already in the Cippressa for other riders in a similar situation, it's just that they never managed to go all the way to win so we don't talk about it.
Good post. I've been lurking here for a few pages and finally someone said it.

Riders get drafts from cars and sticky bottles all the time, every race. At some point in time we're going to reach a point where someone gets a serious draft, or serious sticky bottle at a key moment and goes on to win the race. I don't think we crossed that at M-SR. But asomeone is going to get caught on video doing it big time, and then it's up to see if the officials have the guts to DQ them.

I'm also wondering when officials make the rule that bottles must be grabbed palm forward, thus making sticky bottles much less useful.
it will be difficult to put that in action

like the no-racing-on-the-sidewalk rule
 
Alpe, two wrongs don't make a right.

We evolve in every aspect of our lives and some things that were OK before are not OK now. That's why we keep changing the rules in sports and other arenas. Cycling is not the exception. Besides, nowadays with videos, photos, power files etc., is very hard to get away with stuff anymore. So it is time that we face the problem and start correcting it.
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Alpe d'Huez said:
veji11 said:
I'd even wager that it has happened quite a few times already in the Cippressa for other riders in a similar situation, it's just that they never managed to go all the way to win so we don't talk about it.
Good post. I've been lurking here for a few pages and finally someone said it.

Riders get drafts from cars and sticky bottles all the time, every race. At some point in time we're going to reach a point where someone gets a serious draft, or serious sticky bottle at a key moment and goes on to win the race. I don't think we crossed that at M-SR. But asomeone is going to get caught on video doing it big time, and then it's up to see if the officials have the guts to DQ them.

I'm also wondering when officials make the rule that bottles must be grabbed palm forward, thus making sticky bottles much less useful.
In that Zeeland stage in last year's TdF I remember Sagan had a flat close to the finish before somehow miraculously appearing moments later to contest the sprint for the stage.

I guess you could say it was karma that he got outsprinted by Greipel for the stage, but I wonder had he won if the other riders would have kicked up a stink. The commentators just glossed over how quickly he reappeared.

In any case the point is all forms of cheating should not be condoned, regardless the affinity people have to certain riders.
 
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Escarabajo said:
Alpe, two wrongs don't make a right.

We evolve in every aspect of our lives and some things that were OK before are not OK now. That's why we keep changing the rules in sports and other arenas. Cycling is not the exception. Besides, nowadays with videos, photos, power files etc., is very hard to get away with stuff anymore. So it is time that we face the problem and start correcting it.
Tricky proposition though, particularly in a sport that has these "un-written rules". Not attacking when an opponent crashes or has a mechanical is very noble, but it's a case by case situation. How do you legislate a tradition? Or do you just get rid of it? Drafting, holding cars, or sticky bottles rules are un-enforceable in today's cycling. As long as you have 30 cars to pass to make it back to the peloton, there will be drafting. As long as a rider can touch a team car or one of his occupants, some will try to take a breather or worse. Why not eliminate as many vehicles as possible? Why are DS still in cars instead of a journo-like booth, when riders wear earpieces? How about only official cars, including mechs, and one ref per car?
 
trucido said:
Alexandre B. said:
trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Denial. :cool:
Aww.....can't handle that your boy had to cheat to win? How cute.
He won this bike race. Everyone witnessed it.
Commissaries didn't find anything illegal to disqualify him. That's enough for me.
 
He won this bike race. Everyone witnessed it.
Commissaries didn't find anything illegal to disqualify him. That's enough for me.
From the available evidence it is fair to assume he crossed the line of what's acceptable and what is not, that said, it's not on video and he goes down as the winner. Something does need to be done to clarify these unwritten and highly subjective rules.
 
Re: Re:

veji11 said:
jaylew said:
Escarabajo said:
Depends on the situation. I think we all have the capabilities of knowing when too much is too much. Cipressa No. IMHO.

Also another thing I forgot. Sticky bottle with acceleration is different to a one without changing speed. It looks like he changed speed.
Nail on the head. Sticky bottle to go up the Cipressa, one of basically two places where a difference can be made and where the field can attempt to tire out a sprinter's legs is simply not ok. Especially in a race the magnitude of MSR. Démare knows that which is why he deleted the original file. Not a true champion in my book.
Meh... dropping other riders in really the car didn't appear there miraculously, it isn't as if Démare was dropping from the bunch in the Cippressa and when dropping all the way to his car in some ways slingshoted back up David/Goliath style to make it to the top and then miraculously survive the Poggio and win.

No Démare was coming back from behin, got up to the line of cars and clearly used that moment to his advantage either with drafting or with a sticky bottle to keep going up to the bunch,
the process.

Again is it great that sticky bottles/drafting happen ? no.

Is Démare's victory some sort of a travesty with a winner who simply benefited from cheating to get there ? Please.. the legs were there and what he did was what we see many times.

I'd even wager that it has happened quite a few times already in the Cippressa for other riders in a similar situation, it's just that they never managed to go all the way to win so we don't talk about it.
To the bolded: As per saganist's analysis, the sticky bottle happened towards the top of Cipressa. As per images tweeted by some French guy who analysed Demare's movement behind the bunch, in the middle of Cipressa he was already close to the front of the convoy. There were only 4 team cars visible in front of him at that point, none of them FDJ. So if the sticky bottle happened further up the road, FDJ car must have come from behind, and use that occasion to tow him a bit closer to the back of the peloton + save his climbing legs.

So it is not just little assistance while passing along your team car, but purposeful joining of the car along the rider.
 
Inquitus said:
He won this bike race. Everyone witnessed it.
Commissaries didn't find anything illegal to disqualify him. That's enough for me.
From the available evidence it is fair to assume he crossed the line of what's acceptable and what is not, that said, it's not on video and he goes down as the winner. Something does need to be done to clarify these unwritten and highly subjective rules.
Agree that many rules are subjective, so the anti-Demare will think he crossed the line, the pro-Demare will think he did not. Most in the middle, according to various websites, think he did not fwiw.

I would note that the line kept changing for the anti-Demare, some of whom acted like a mob: within minutes after the rumors surfaced, without adopting any sort of a wait-and-see approach, they were taking the street, shouting: "hang him". Now they find out the murdered wasn't one, but insist he is a criminal because marijuana residue was found in the ashtray. Wow! The bar keeps getting lower.

I think that Demare was wrong on several levels to link these accusations to an anti-French sentiment, although some reactions including on CN are reaking of xenophobia towards the French. I think it had more to do with giving the moral teachers (the French-FDJ) a taste of their medicine. Too bad for Demare: it's not really about him, because no one has a reason to hate him. He's not polarizing, not flamboyant. But he's a French (who we are told never cheat) and FDJ (Madiot, big mouth). In a sense, he got caught in the crossfire.
 
Aug 28, 2015
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Alexandre B. said:
trucido said:
Alexandre B. said:
trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Denial. :cool:
Aww.....can't handle that your boy had to cheat to win? How cute.
He won this bike race. Everyone witnessed it.
Commissaries didn't find anything illegal to disqualify him. That's enough for me.
and what more: he has never tested positive. :rolleyes:
 
Tonton said:
Inquitus said:
He won this bike race. Everyone witnessed it.
Commissaries didn't find anything illegal to disqualify him. That's enough for me.
From the available evidence it is fair to assume he crossed the line of what's acceptable and what is not, that said, it's not on video and he goes down as the winner. Something does need to be done to clarify these unwritten and highly subjective rules.
Agree that many rules are subjective, so the anti-Demare will think he crossed the line, the pro-Demare will think he did not. Most in the middle, according to various websites, think he did not fwiw.

I would note that the line kept changing for the anti-Demare, some of whom acted like a mob: within minutes after the rumors surfaced, without adopting any sort of a wait-and-see approach, they were taking the street, shouting: "hang him". Now they find out the murdered wasn't one, but insist he is a criminal because marijuana residue was found in the ashtray. Wow! The bar keeps getting lower.

I think that Demare was wrong on several levels to link these accusations to an anti-French sentiment, although some reactions including on CN are reaking of xenophobia towards the French. I think it had more to do with giving the moral teachers (the French-FDJ) a taste of their medicine. Too bad for Demare: it's not really about him, because no one has a reason to hate him. He's not polarizing, not flamboyant. But he's a French (who we are told never cheat) and FDJ (Madiot, big mouth). In a sense, he got caught in the crossfire.
If he released his Strava data with the power included I would give him the benefit of the doubt, his shady behaviour in that regard leads me to believe he crossed the line and cheated his way to a win. Would be easy for him to prove his innocence here. Just needs to show he did 500W or whatever for the 4 minutes or so.
 
Oct 10, 2015
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trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Well releasing all the Data wont stop people saying he cheated will it? We've seen this countless times when Data is released with the latest example being Froome, did he cheat? maybe but releasing all the Data won't change peoples minds (i'm for the releasing of all Data by all riders). Also if you look at Demare's Strava you will see he never releases Heartrate or Power Data.

The Inrng has a good story on the whole MSR Demare saga http://inrng.com/2016/03/demare-cipressa-conspiracy-theories/
 
StryderHells said:
Well releasing all the Data wont stop people saying he cheated will it? We've seen this countless times when Data is released with the latest example being Froome, did he cheat? maybe but releasing all the Data won't change peoples minds (i'm for the releasing of all Data by all riders). Also if you look at Demare's Strava you will see he never releases Heartrate or Power Data.

The Inrng has a good story on the whole MSR Demare saga http://inrng.com/2016/03/demare-cipressa-conspiracy-theories/
I am for ban of all power meters, cycling would be more unpredictable and more exciting and not of full mindless cyclist with powermeter
 
Sep 7, 2015
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StryderHells said:
Well releasing all the Data wont stop people saying he cheated will it? We've seen this countless times when Data is released with the latest example being Froome, did he cheat? maybe but releasing all the Data won't change peoples minds (i'm for the releasing of all Data by all riders). Also if you look at Demare's Strava you will see he never releases Heartrate or Power Data.

The Inrng has a good story on the whole MSR Demare saga http://inrng.com/2016/03/demare-cipressa-conspiracy-theories/
I agree, releasing power data won't do any good but rather polarize opinions (the so called confirmation bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) because it is quite easy to cheat on power data, you can just change them with your own hand during the sticky moment, if ever occurred. On the other hand, cheating with GPS data is more tricky (although not impossible) because they must be consistent with other data (tv coverage, relative position, timing)
 
Mar 15, 2016
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StryderHells said:
trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Well releasing all the Data wont stop people saying he cheated will it? We've seen this countless times when Data is released with the latest example being Froome, did he cheat? maybe but releasing all the Data won't change peoples minds (i'm for the releasing of all Data by all riders). Also if you look at Demare's Strava you will see he never releases Heartrate or Power Data.

The Inrng has a good story on the whole MSR Demare saga http://inrng.com/2016/03/demare-cipressa-conspiracy-theories/
Well you state that releasing ALL of the data will help towards clarifying what actually happened, which I'm in full agreement with.

Will this happen? Obviously not, so a classless faux monument winner he remains.
 
trucido said:
StryderHells said:
trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Well releasing all the Data wont stop people saying he cheated will it? We've seen this countless times when Data is released with the latest example being Froome, did he cheat? maybe but releasing all the Data won't change peoples minds (i'm for the releasing of all Data by all riders). Also if you look at Demare's Strava you will see he never releases Heartrate or Power Data.

The Inrng has a good story on the whole MSR Demare saga http://inrng.com/2016/03/demare-cipressa-conspiracy-theories/
Well you state that releasing ALL of the data will help towards clarifying what actually happened, which I'm in full agreement with.

Will this happen? Obviously not, so a classless faux monument winner he remains.
It's still two guys allegations versus all other parties involved (DS, Orica guys, other riders) that saw nothing wrong. :)
 
Apr 15, 2013
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trucido said:
StryderHells said:
trucido said:
It's obvious that he cheated.

Else he would be comfortable with releasing all his data and letting that prove his innocence instead of throwing personal attacks.

Arnaud Demare, the faux monument winner.
Well releasing all the Data wont stop people saying he cheated will it? We've seen this countless times when Data is released with the latest example being Froome, did he cheat? maybe but releasing all the Data won't change peoples minds (i'm for the releasing of all Data by all riders). Also if you look at Demare's Strava you will see he never releases Heartrate or Power Data.

The Inrng has a good story on the whole MSR Demare saga http://inrng.com/2016/03/demare-cipressa-conspiracy-theories/
Well you state that releasing ALL of the data will help towards clarifying what actually happened, which I'm in full agreement with.

Will this happen? Obviously not, so a classless faux monument winner he remains.
Ah well.. What can we all say : the accusations remain baseless, or rather, have been supported by a string of conspirationnist fakes... Let's move on.

I hope to see you keep up with your quality posting, we wouldn't want to see such a great start in your posting carreer slow down to a crawl.

cheers.
 
Mar 15, 2016
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King Boonen said:
Release ALL the data! The final cry of the dying argument...
Hm....I said that in my first post on this topic and now you proclaim this as a final cry? Pray do read people's posts properly before replying, it will prevent such misconceptions in future.

veji11 said:
Ah well.. What can we all say : the accusations remain baseless, or rather, have been supported by a string of conspirationnist fakes... Let's move on.

I hope to see you keep up with your quality posting, we wouldn't want to see such a great start in your posting carreer slow down to a crawl.

cheers.
So Tosatto and Capecchi's comments were "conspirationnist fakes"? Ah must just be a bunch of disgruntled Italians unhappy with the winner of a race on their home soil :rolleyes:
 
Alexandre B.,
If the other parties involved are keeping quiet it does not mean that they agree with Demare. In fact it makes it worse.

Releasing the data is very simple. And it does not compare with the Froome case. These are two complete different cases. One can be picked up easily and the other one is a more complicated one and involves several calculations. With the case of Demare is simple: no power at double the speed= big tow!
 

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