1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

[Alesle]

Conconi worked with Indurain, at least, Ferrari worked with Moser/Rominger/Chateau D'Ax. Wouldnt surprise me if the capo di capi had anything to do with Roche in 1987.

As far as I know Conconi was also involved with Fignon around that time.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Conconi worked with Indurain, at least, Ferrari worked with Moser/Rominger/Chateau D'Ax. Wouldnt surprise me if the capo di capi had anything to do with Roche in 1987.

Pre-EPO Rominger could climb and TT with the best at times, but not over 3 weeks. Maybe blood doping but the gains couldn't be sustained over a full GT without EPO? Or maybe he just didn't recover well enough without a sky high hematocrit... Who knows?

 

[Netserk]

Pre-EPO Rominger could climb and TT with the best at times, but not over 3 weeks. Maybe blood doping but the gains couldn't be sustained over a full GT without EPO? Or maybe he just didn't recover well enough without a sky high hematocrit... Who knows?

Maybe he only received a BB just before a GT and not during? (Pure speculation)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They could have transported the blood on the team bus.

This is the 'magic bus' theory that Andy gave.

Unless it was made by delorean we can discount that because PDM first started using a bus in 1989.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's not implausible that some riders may have prioritized one particular race over others.

Ok, but nothing is really implausible - but who are these riders, who were they working with and when.
And again, we are discussing 1988, a withdrawal would have been right at a crucial point in peaking for a close event without EPO to restore.

Conconi worked with Indurain, at least, Ferrari worked with Moser/Rominger/Chateau D'Ax. Wouldnt surprise me if the capo di capi had anything to do with Roche in 1987.

Most of this was after 1988.
The only team Ferrari was working with then was Cd'A,it was after before he broadened his client list.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Most of this was after 1988.
The only team Ferrari was working with then was Cd'A,it was after before he broadened his client list.

No, it was not after 1988.

Giovanni Grazzi for instance, was at Carrera in 1988. Who was at Carrera in 1987?

Ferrari was at Chateau in 1988.

Indurain was sent to Conconi in 1986 by Echevarri.

When u can dope a 34 year old Moser to beat a time set by Big Eddy, there is a lot u can do dont you think so?

PErhaps I am wrong on the blooddope part, but PDM had even or should I say also, a university on their backs to test how they could dope their riders to the limits.

 

[86TDFWinner]

No, it was not after 1988.

Giovanni Grazzi for instance, was at Carrera in 1988. Who was at Carrera in 1987?

Ferrari was at Chateau in 1988.

Indurain was sent to Conconi in 1986 by Echevarri.

When u can dope a 34 year old Moser to beat a time set by Big Eddy, there is a lot u can do dont you think so?

PErhaps I am wrong on the blooddope part, but PDM had even or should I say also, a university on their backs to test how they could dope their riders to the limits.

I can see why LeMond couldn't wait to dump PDM, jebus.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, it was not after 1988.

Giovanni Grazzi for instance, was at Carrera in 1988. Who was at Carrera in 1987?

Ferrari was at Chateau in 1988.

Indurain was sent to Conconi in 1986 by Echevarri.

You are all over the place here.
Grazzi? Who cares? I asked Tylertwin to name the people who he said Ferrari & Conconi were 'working with' in 88.

You again mention Carrera 87, I do not know - if you do, then spit it out - that why i am asking.

As for Indurain his primary doc was Padilla, not Conconi.

When u can dope a 34 year old Moser to beat a time set by Big Eddy, there is a lot u can do dont you think so?

PErhaps I am wrong on the blooddope part, but PDM had even or should I say also, a university on their backs to test how they could dope their riders to the limits.

Why a rhetorical question?
We know blood doping worked well on Moser - thats is not in dispute - but we also know why, because they were able to do so in perfect conditions for a specific track event. Which is not the same during a busy road season.

 

[pmcg76]

No, it was not after 1988.

Giovanni Grazzi for instance, was at Carrera in 1988. Who was at Carrera in 1987?

Ferrari was at Chateau in 1988.

Indurain was sent to Conconi in 1986 by Echevarri.

When u can dope a 34 year old Moser to beat a time set by Big Eddy, there is a lot u can do dont you think so?

PErhaps I am wrong on the blooddope part, but PDM had even or should I say also, a university on their backs to test how they could dope their riders to the limits.

And what big results did Carrera pull in during 1988/89 or Chateau d'Ax for that matter? Italian cycling as a whole was in dump's during 88/89 and it was the explosion of Bugno and Chiappucci in 1990 plus the re-emergence of Argentin that signaled the re-birth of Italian cycling. Argentin started working with Ferrari in 89.

If there was blood doping in Italy during 88/89, it sure done nothing for their riders.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I don't know who those riders were, who they were working with or when. I don't claim to know which riders blood doped. I claim it is illogical and naive to believe transfusions weren't used between 1984 and 1996.

It is not in question that Ferrari and Conconi were active in cycling in the period between Moser's hour record and the EPO-era. It matters not if they had much fewer clients in the 80's than in the 90's, because no one is suggesting transfusions were as widespread in the 80's as EPO was in the 90's. Now, considering the fact that they blood doped Moser in -84 and the fact that professor C kept blood doping endurance athletes until the arrival of EPO, what are the odds that they didn't offer blood transfusions to the cyclists who consulted with them? Furthermore, the success of Moser and the US track team in 1984 would of course tempt others to experiment with blood doping.

Are you seriously arguing that transfusions weren't used because withdrawing blood a few weeks before a targetted event meant you couldn't peak properly? There is no doubt that the method was performance enhancing, even with its limitations.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't know who those riders were, who they were working with or when. I don't claim to know which riders blood doped. I claim it is illogical and naive to believe transfusions weren't used between 1984 and 1996.

Which no-one has claimed.

It is not in question that Ferrari and Conconi were active in cycling in the period between Moser's hour record and the EPO-era. It matters not if they had much fewer clients in the 80's than in the 90's, because no one is suggesting transfusions were as widespread in the 80's as EPO was in the 90's. Now, considering the fact that they blood doped Moser in -84 and the fact that professor C kept blood doping endurance athletes until the arrival of EPO, what are the odds that they didn't offer blood transfusions to the cyclists who consulted with them? Furthermore, the success of Moser and the US track team in 1984 would of course tempt others to experiment with blood doping.

Good question - what are the odds?

I think quite low - not because riders didnt want to, dopers will do what ever enhances their performance. Which is why i think takeup for road cyclists in a busy season was low.

Are you seriously arguing that transfusions weren't used because withdrawing blood a few weeks before a targetted event meant you couldn't peak properly? There is no doubt that the method was performance enhancing, even with its limitations.

No really - but having a withdrawal has a significant dip in performance and ability to train, during a crucial phase of preparation.
Back then there would have been a bigger trade off, which means any benefit would be limited.

And just to summarize - if this method was so good, it would have been widely used, and yet you cannot name the people or the Docs doing it.

 

[Netserk]

Acording to LeMond PDM probably blood doped in 88 & 89.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Which no-one has claimed.

Then what the H are you arguing about?

Good question - what are the odds?

I'd say it's about as likely as Boogerd only buying vitamins from Matschiner or Rogers only receiving training plans from Ferrari.

I think quite low - not because riders didnt want to, dopers will do what ever enhances their performance. Which is why i think takeup for road cyclists in a busy season was low.

And we're back to the belief that no one could have been willing to prioritize one event over others. So no one ever went a month without competing, or competing but sucking, before an important event? Did Rooks even ride the TdS or Dauphine in -88?

And could you make up your mind whether you agree that some riders most certainly did use blood transfusions or whether you think the odds are "quite low"?

No really - but having a withdrawal has a significant dip in performance and ability to train, during a crucial phase of preparation.
Back then there would have been a bigger trade off, which means any benefit would be limited.

Tell that to the italian and finnish skiers and runners who admitted to doing blood transfusions. They'd laugh in your face.
Limited compared to what? EPO a decade later? Duh! Other doping practices at the time? Nonsense! The stuff had a significant performance enhancing effect. The only question is how quickly the gains declined.

And just to summarize - if this method was so good, it would have been widely used, and yet you cannot name the people or the Docs doing it.

I can name 3 enablers. Michele Ferrari, Franscesco Conconi, Eddy B - all known to have blood doped riders in the 1980's. You can add the PDM team as well, but oh, wait, I forgot that "blood bag" actually means saline.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

What shall we make of this?

1. INTRODUCTION TO THE DOPING CAVE: 1981, I MEET PROF. CONCONI

Just a few days after becoming National Coach for 800m and 1500m male runners, I met Prof. Conconi at a scientific congress where I was speaker. He was informal, as if we had known each other for a long time, and asked to speak to me. He congratulated me on my new appointment and told me the Italian Athletics Federation had asked him to advise me of their project. He had elaborated a new system, improving upon the one used in Finland, for the transfusion of selected red blood cells, which were stored at -90°, enriched with particular substances and then transfused two or three days before an important event. He said: "it means an improvement of 3 to 5 seconds for 1500m races, 15 to 20 seconds for 5000m races and 30 to 40 seconds for 10,000m races.". I was astounded as I suddenly understood that doping really did exist and that the rumours concerning the Italian medals at the Moscow Olympics were true! But I did not let on]

http://www.ergogenics.org/donati.html

 

[slowspoke]

What shall we make of this?



http://www.ergogenics.org/donati.html

Great read.

Thanks.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Acording to LeMond PDM probably blood doped in 88 & 89.

Source?

tenchars

 

[Netserk]

Source?

tenchars

2r from February. In the interview he did with Kimmage.

EDIT:

I left PDM because of doping. But I don't remember hearing about EPO until 1990. They were blood doping probably in 1988 and '89 but I don't know about EPO...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Then what the H are you arguing about?

Very simply, road cycling, bikes on the road - I do not care for snow and runners or other irrelevant stuff you bring up.

What exactly is your problem?
I will address it below, but you have attempted to misconstrue my points a number of times, do not do so.

All I am asking you to do is back up facts or why you have an opinion on how and why professionals in road racing in circa 88 utilized blood doping - from that I can make my opinion.

I'd say it's about as likely as Boogerd only buying vitamins from Matschiner or Rogers only receiving training plans from Ferrari.



And we're back to the belief that no one could have been willing to prioritize one event over others. So no one ever went a month without competing, or competing but sucking, before an important event? Did Rooks even ride the TdS or Dauphine in -88?

Again, the priority argument was yours - so you bought and keep all the prizes.

MY argument was that a withdrawal would have a negative effect in the run up to a major event.

And could you make up your mind whether you agree that some riders most certainly did use blood transfusions or whether you think the odds are "quite low"?

Due to the fact my "quite low" was in response to your question about "what are the odds that they didn't offer blood transfusions to the cyclists who consulted with them?"

Did you expect your strawman to go unchecked?

Tell that to the italian and finnish skiers and runners who admitted to doing blood transfusions. They'd laugh in your face.
Limited compared to what? EPO a decade later? Duh! Other doping practices at the time? Nonsense! The stuff had a significant performance enhancing effect. The only question is how quickly the gains declined.

Ok, I will tell them.
"Dear Italian and Finnish skier,
Even though you have taken a blood transfusion and will get a boost in performance you will not win the Tour de France or any other cycling event that may be discussed in the Cyclingnews forum in 20+ years time due to the fact that you are Nodric Skiers and you do not ride bikes".
Dr. Maserati.

I can name 3 enablers. Michele Ferrari, Franscesco Conconi, Eddy B - all known to have blood doped riders in the 1980's. You can add the PDM team as well, but oh, wait, I forgot that "blood bag" actually means saline.

This is progress - now please put the name of the rider that was not also a track rider beside each of these enablers up
to 1988:
Conconi_______________
Ferrari________________
Eddy B________________

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Very simply, road cycling, bikes on the road - I do not care for snow and runners or other irrelevant stuff you bring up.

What exactly is your problem?
I will address it below, but you have attempted to misconstrue my points a number of times, do not do so.

All I am asking you to do is back up facts or why you have an opinion on how and why professionals in road racing in circa 88 utilized blood doping - from that I can make my opinion.


Again, the priority argument was yours - so you bought and keep all the prizes.

MY argument was that a withdrawal would have a negative effect in the run up to a major event.


Due to the fact my "quite low" was in response to your question about "what are the odds that they didn't offer blood transfusions to the cyclists who consulted with them?"

Did you expect your strawman to go unchecked?


Ok, I will tell them.
"Dear Italian and Finnish skier,
Even though you have taken a blood transfusion and will get a boost in performance you will not win the Tour de France or any other cycling event that may be discussed in the Cyclingnews forum in 20+ years time due to the fact that you are Nodric Skiers and you do not ride bikes".
Dr. Maserati.


This is progress - now please put the name of the rider that was not also a track rider beside each of these enablers up
to 1988:
Conconi_______________
Ferrari________________
Eddy B________________

Forest for the trees, Doc...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What shall we make of this?



http://www.ergogenics.org/donati.html

Again, why with the rhetorical question?
Why not clearly state what you make of this.

Donati blew the whistle on Italian doping - he never mentioned cycling until EPO.