1999 TdF Samples: moving to the Feds?

[Oldman]

if you are really interested in the knowledge vs. the internet posing prowess (and I don’t mean it a derogatory way) google ‘zorzolli report’. it’s been discussed and answered over and over and the same questions keep popping up. So, nothing will help your curiosity to take a finite turn more than some self -education. a hint: the epo test introduction in 2001 forced the old and forgotten blood transfusion procedure back into front lines b/c there was no test for it.

i agree and as i pointed out at least 3 times in this thread alone the significance of the 1999 samples retesting would be in the potential for drawing the big picture of consistent fraud by armstrong on the usps team and the other la teams. nothing to do with the sport’s sanctioning but everything to do with a junkie doper's big picture going back to his pre-cancer days.

We keep saying it but it's hard to get through to people arguing the minutae.
Big picture in this scenario: Lance's samples may not matter. The access to stored samples that either weren't tested or previously tested A samples that were negative could lead to new evidence. Like I said; once one of those samples comes up hot on the USPS payroll or a team that seemed to enjoy preferential UCI treatment their will be people willing to talk.

 

[TubularBills]

We keep saying it but it's hard to get through to people arguing the minutae.
Big picture in this scenario: Lance's samples may not matter. The access to stored samples that either weren't tested or previously tested A samples that were negative could lead to new evidence. Like I said; once one of those samples comes up hot on the USPS payroll or a team that seemed to enjoy preferential UCI treatment their will be people willing to talk.

Chapeau! That's a new angle... kudo's for thinking outside the vial/vile... a federal probe would be focused on the path of least resistance... house of cards.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Bet you $$$ that clown Fabiani reads these forums to get ideas.

 

[kielbasa]

Bet you $$$ that clown Fabiani reads these forums to get ideas.

Well then, let's give him some ideas.

 

[TubularBills]

Bet you $$$ that clown Fabiani reads these forums to get ideas.

I sleep like a baby with the knowledge that 'Mellow Johnny' definitely does and, more importantly, loses sleep because of it.

I wonder if sales are up? Might be a good time for Michael Anderson to open his Austin dream shop, or buy the soon to be worthless and a steal, Mellow Johnny's. Retribution... such a great word.

 

[Oldman]

Bet you $$$ that clown Fabiani reads these forums to get ideas.

He bills by the minute and charges a markup for his drones to monitor these discussions. If he hasn't thought of everything we're discussing he hasn't earned his money and his client will spend alot more. Let's hope the right thing happens.

 

[Oldman]

"Seems like the best way to get back at rich people is to make them poor."-
Eddie Murphey/Trading Places

 

[TexPat]

I sleep like a baby with the knowledge that 'Mellow Johnny' definitely does and, more importantly, loses sleep because of it.

I wonder if sales are up? Might be a good time for Michael Anderson to open his Austin dream shop, or buy the soon to be worthless and a steal, Mellow Johnny's. Retribution... such a great word.

Think I'll stay in New Zealand. The folks are much nicer here. And it's not so bloody hot!

 

[TubularBills]

Think I'll stay in New Zealand. The folks are much nicer here. And it's not so bloody hot!

touche! I want to be kind, but the evidence doesn't allow it... I wish it did.

 

[theswordsman]

Think I'll stay in New Zealand. The folks are much nicer here. And it's not so bloody hot!

I've got a friend I met at a study abroad program years ago. A couple of weeks ago, she headed to New Zealand to work her way around the country for a year. She's already posted pics of hot mud baths you can choose from by temperature and acidity, a hot waterfall, and lots of brilliant scenery. She's been painting at a hostel in return for a bed at night, and looks amazingly happy with new friends in the photos. From that, and what I've seen in movies, it looks like a great place to live.

 

[TubularBills]

Think I'll stay in New Zealand. The folks are much nicer here. And it's not so bloody hot!

Come to think of it... LA is a lot like a niche in NZ, as expressed and focused in:

Once Were Warriors

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110729/

the title, seems like an appropriate and fitting tribute...

"Once Were Warriors: A family descended from Maori warriors is bedeviled by a violent father and the societal problems of being treated as outcasts."

(no assumptions or racial intentions - just drawing a potential parallel - and indeed, "Once Were Warriors" is a fictional film.)

 

[clearhop]

I think the one you are missing is that the Urine from the 6 samples would show the same percentage values of synthetic EPO.

MA: I honestly can't conceive how you could possibly do that. I don't understand how you could inject enough EPO so that the percentage was slightly lower on the next day, it just beggars belief that you could adjust the amount of EPO you put in a sample by such a miniscule amount. And to be quite frank, it doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny, it's a fantastic claim in the literal sense of the word, it's not backed up by a shred of evidence at all, and I think it needs to be taken on that merit.

Coming from a scientist i always thought this was a weird thing to say. I'm fairly certain that in a science lab someone could do this fairly easily, they would just need to have the right equipment. Lets call it a miniscule measuring device for short. For a scientist to not be able to conceive of a piece of equipment that could do it is a bit odd, given I just conceived of something that could. Not, however, as odd as thinking someone in a lab would suddenly take it upon themselves to do this to 6 samples that to them, were just a number. That's the bit where this "spiking the urine" argument falls down. Why would anyone bother, in what was, a research experiment...?

 

[Benotti69]

Bet you $$$ that clown Fabiani reads these forums to get ideas.

i was just thinking this, whether the interested parties involved in this investigation read the clinic? i was gonna start a thread on it as i was interested to read peoples opinions on the matter as to whether the clinic is feeding one side more than the other in matters proceeding at the moment.

Obviously Pub Stratalies is or has an intern or 2 on here along with the 3 stooges (Flicky, Polish and Cobbedly).

do you think interns in the Feds, Novistsky's office are scanning here and other places for gems that they might not have thought of?

I think maybe a mod might move this to a new thread?

sorry for the hijack

 

[python]

i was just thinking this, whether the interested parties involved in this investigation read the clinic? i was gonna start a thread on it as i was interested to read peoples opinions on the matter as to whether the clinic is feeding one side more than the other in matters proceeding at the moment.

Obviously Pub Stratalies is or has an intern or 2 on here along with the 3 stooges (Flicky, Polish and Cobbedly).

do you think interns in the Feds, Novistsky's office are scanning here and other places for gems that they might not have thought of?

I think maybe a mod might move this to a new thread?

sorry for the hijack

i think both sides peruse the forum occasionally. not so much for any ideas but for 'taking a pulse' and the timely sources and links

if you follow the clinic on a regular basis you'll quickly realize that nothing in the cycling web world matches the cn forums rapidity and rhythm. it's a freebie that any side would be too stupid to neglect.

 

[flicker]

If what the people in the forum say and Armstrongs pee from the 99 tour are contaminated with EPO or other peds iI would guess that Armstrong will be taken to the mast in all ways possible. Good move by the prosecuters and the French lab. Good to see this cooperation. When people work together I see the sport clean up. Refreshing.

 

[Oldman]

If what the people in the forum say and Armstrongs pee from the 99 tour are contaminated with EPO or other peds iI would guess that Armstrong will be taken to the mast in all ways possible. Good move by the prosecuters and the French lab. Good to see this cooperation. When people work together I see the sport clean up. Refreshing.

Notice today how Chodroff was busted? He admittedly never saw, spoke to or knows Joe Papp. He was busted by electronic transactions.
If LA or his management crew conducted business via these or other media and do so in other countries we can see the Interpol role becoming more important. It also is bad news for guys that like to chat or "twit" too much.

 

[MarkvW]

Silly assumptions are unwarranted.

C

If what the people in the forum say and Armstrongs pee from the 99 tour are contaminated with EPO or other peds iI would guess that Armstrong will be taken to the mast in all ways possible. Good move by the prosecuters and the French lab. Good to see this cooperation. When people work together I see the sport clean up. Refreshing.

Don't assume this is all about Lance. Don't even assume that this investigation has a limited focus at this time. I suspect the feds are just following leads and seeing where those leads take them.

I suspect that it's going to be tough for Lance. The cost issues for Lance are huge. He's not just defending against civil and criminal liability--he's also defending his revenue-producing reputation. Even for a rich SOB like Lance, the costs will be brutal.

Lance, a noted control-freak, cannot control this investigation. ALL his blood samples may now be analyzed. When he is called to testify, he will not know the results. A wrong move can put you in Roger Clemons territory, where EVERYTHING gets laid out in one big criminal trial. On the other hand, telling the truth has its own complex risk calculus.

And then, there is the wondrous beauty of the Fifth Amendment. Lance can take the Fifth. If the feds immunize him, though, Lance must talk. Lying risks a Clemons-style perjury trial.

And who knows what those time-wasting fools in DC will do. Congressional Hearings?

The feds won't talk to Lance until they have a big pile of evidence. Lance will be nervous; he won't know just what they have. The more evidence, the bigger minefield Lance must navigate.

Who knows what new sophisticated tests are now available to test for microdosed PEDs in old samples? Does Lance know?

Lance is spending a dungload on his defense and he is probably very frustrated because he can't discern any benefit from it. A federal investigation is scary. There are good reasons for Lance to cooperate--especially if he gets immunity.

Now, take everything I've said about Lance, subtract the money, and apply it to the peloton peons. They WILL talk if they are immunized. Bike-rider omerta only goes so far when the wife and kids come into the equation.

That will compound Lance's problem.

Glad I'm not him.

 

[Oldman]

C

Don't assume this is all about Lance. Don't even assume that this investigation has a limited focus at this time. I suspect the feds are just following leads and seeing where those leads take them.

I suspect that it's going to be tough for Lance. The cost issues for Lance are huge. He's not just defending against civil and criminal liability--he's also defending his revenue-producing reputation. Even for a rich SOB like Lance, the costs will be brutal.

Lance, a noted control-freak, cannot control this investigation. ALL his blood samples may now be analyzed. When he is called to testify, he will not know the results. A wrong move can put you in Roger Clemons territory, where EVERYTHING gets laid out in one big criminal trial. On the other hand, telling the truth has its own complex risk calculus.

And then, there is the wondrous beauty of the Fifth Amendment. Lance can take the Fifth. If the feds immunize him, though, Lance must talk. Lying risks a Clemons-style perjury trial.

And who knows what those time-wasting fools in DC will do. Congressional Hearings?

The feds won't talk to Lance until they have a big pile of evidence. Lance will be nervous; he won't know just what they have. The more evidence, the bigger minefield Lance must navigate.

Who knows what new sophisticated tests are now available to test for microdosed PEDs in old samples? Does Lance know?

Lance is spending a dungload on his defense and he is probably very frustrated because he can't discern any benefit from it. A federal investigation is scary. There are good reasons for Lance to cooperate--especially if he gets immunity.

Now, take everything I've said about Lance, subtract the money, and apply it to the peloton peons. They WILL talk if they are immunized. Bike-rider omerta only goes so far when the wife and kids come into the equation.

That will compound Lance's problem.

Glad I'm not him.

What I said.
But Lance is already in Clemens territory and beyond if there are transactions for controlled substances with his fingerprints on them. I don't see a personal trainer willing to take the fall for him as in Clemen's case. Oh wait...that guy wasn't willing to take the fall.

 

[_yngve_]

Bordry - Born to lose

Worst.

Post.

Ever.

 

[MarkvW]

No!

If what the people in the forum say and Armstrongs pee from the 99 tour are contaminated with EPO or other peds iI would guess that Armstrong will be taken to the mast in all ways possible. Good move by the prosecuters and the French lab. Good to see this cooperation. When people work together I see the sport clean up. Refreshing.

What I said.
But Lance is already in Clemens territory and beyond if there are transactions for controlled substances with his fingerprints on them. I don't see a personal trainer willing to take the fall for him as in Clemen's case. Oh wait...that guy wasn't willing to take the fall.

He only crosses the Clemons Threshold when he subjects himself to the risk of a perjury prosecution. He's not there yet. He may be at risk for other prosecutions, but not perjury-yet. And you ignore the very real possibility that Lance could receive immunity and testify pursuant to an immunity agreement.

And you don't get fingerprints on a transaction. Proof of a transaction requires transactional witnesses. I am aware of absolutely no transactional witnesses. Presumably, that is being investigated by the feds.

You're post hinges on a mighty big IF. Criminal prosecutions are not like blog posts. They require a lot of legwork before they can even be presented to the USAG. And the USAG is very selective.

 

[Oldman]

He only crosses the Clemons Threshold when he subjects himself to the risk of a perjury prosecution. He's not there yet. He may be at risk for other prosecutions, but not perjury-yet. And you ignore the very real possibility that Lance could receive immunity and testify pursuant to an immunity agreement.

And you don't get fingerprints on a transaction. Proof of a transaction requires transactional witnesses. I am aware of absolutely no transactional witnesses. Presumably, that is being investigated by the feds.
You're post hinges on a mighty big IF. Criminal prosecutions are not like blog posts. They require a lot of legwork before they can even be presented to the USAG. And the USAG is very selective.

You're correct on many counts; except see how Papp's customer got caught and the USADA will deal with the large list of names they now have. They are absolutely serious about international distribution and one money transfer or errant email from Lance doesn't need a "witness"; it just has to be traceable to him. My speculation is that some transactional information of this nature exists between 1999 and now. That's not to much of a strain on the imagination considering the guy Twitters every bowel movement.

 

[offbyone]

When athletes submit to AFLD testing do they really do so with the precept that the AFLD could send their samples to another agency years later? I highly doubt it. If the AFLD isn't allowed to retest them then why would someone else be allowed to?

Just seems more of the AFLD acting like a cowboy politicized agency instead of a professional organization. IMO it just marginalizes their credibility and professionalism and this wouldn't be the first time it has come into question. This is the kind of crap that makes these agencies like the UCI a joke.

In the end, all that matters is the legality of this exchange. If it isn't legal armstrong's lawyers will make the evidence un-permissible and the samples will be lost forever.

 

[Kennf1]

When athletes submit to AFLD testing do they really do so with the precept that the AFLD could send their samples to another agency years later? I highly doubt it. If the AFLD isn't allowed to retest them then why would someone else be allowed to?

Just seems more of the AFLD acting like a cowboy politicized agency instead of a professional organization. IMO it just marginalizes their credibility and professionalism and this wouldn't be the first time it has come into question. This is the kind of crap that makes these agencies like the UCI a joke.

In the end, all that matters is the legality of this exchange. If it isn't legal armstrong's lawyers will make the evidence un-permissible and the samples will be lost forever.

How is cooperating with a fraud investigation acting like a "cowboy?"

The only people who have criticized the AFLD's competence are the lawyers/PR teams for Armstrong and Landis.

 

[Oldman]

When athletes submit to AFLD testing do they really do so with the precept that the AFLD could send their samples to another agency years later? I highly doubt it. If the AFLD isn't allowed to retest them then why would someone else be allowed to?

Just seems more of the AFLD acting like a cowboy politicized agency instead of a professional organization. IMO it just marginalizes their credibility and professionalism and this wouldn't be the first time it has come into question. This is the kind of crap that makes these agencies like the UCI a joke.

In the end, all that matters is the legality of this exchange. If it isn't legal armstrong's lawyers will make the evidence un-permissible and the samples will be lost forever.

While it's a good point it's doubtful any sporting association could withold evidence to a high level crime. While it may be that AFLD is cooperating willingly they may have some Interpol encouragement. Whatever issues you have with AFLD to compare them to the UCI is a stretch in reality. UCI apparently represses questionable testing and likely profit from the situations. UCI is also protecting their cash cow franchise. AFLD does come off as grasping at times but this seems serious.

 

[offbyone]

How is cooperating with a fraud investigation acting like a "cowboy?"

The only people who have criticized the AFLD's competence are the lawyers/PR teams for Armstrong and Landis.

Oh come on. Part of the biggest problem with the doping agencies is that no one trusts them. The reason is because they don't act like professional agencies. They often play politics with their regulations. There is just a general climate of unprofessionalism. If you read this board you will notice that a good portion of the anti-doping crusaders have these agencies at the top of their problem list.

And this is the perfect example. These athletes are trusting these guys with all their biological data and expecting it to be treated exactly per the rules. This is very important. A mistake or mishandling of this could make or break the life of one of these athletes. This data is suppose to be strictly confidential and handled with the utmost care. Rules must be followed here. You can't make exceptions if these agencies are ever going to be trusted. Yet AFLD is using the media to offer to hand over lance's data. That is just not how things should ever be done. So they break their own rules, how can the sports body much less the public every trust them with the most serious issue when they act like this.

Just like Landis shouldn't be speaking at anti-doping conferences until this case is closed. There are too many publicity games being played at the expense of a very serious court case. This is suppose to be decided in a court of law, but it feels like a circus. I expect some of this to cause major problems in the case like important evidence becoming inadmissible because it wasn't handled properly or something along that lines.