2011 Vuelta a Espana Stage 11: Verín - Estación de Montaña Manzaneda 167,0 km (31/8)

[spanky wanderlust]

everyone is talking about wiggo. naturally since he is in the lead.

but it is getting harder and harder to see past nibali winning this.

 

[roundabout]

Leipheimer is no slouch on the steep climbs. At least those in the States. Brasstown Bald when he got the chance to ride it and he seemed to always attack on the Sierra Road when the Tour of California was in February.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Leipheimer is no slouch on the steep climbs. At least those in the States. Brasstown Bald when he got the chance to ride it and he seemed to always attack on the Sierra Road when the Tour of California was in February.

I'm not saying Leipheimer is a slouch on the steep climbs. I'm pointing out that Wiggins is being written off by many as weaker on the steeper stuff but we've never seen him take it on in his top form (such as that he's in right now), and if he's being written off because of the style of rider he is, well, it's not too dissimilar from Leipheimer, and Leipheimer has shown himself to be pretty good on the really steep stuff.

Leipheimer also schooled everybody on the Rettenbachferner in the 2005 Deutschlandtour, and that's one of the hardest climbs in Europe. It's basically the Mortirolo, but at 1000m more altitude.

 

[Swede1]

I'm not saying Leipheimer is a slouch on the steep climbs. I'm pointing out that Wiggins is being written off by many as weaker on the steeper stuff but we've never seen him take it on in his top form (such as that he's in right now), and if he's being written off because of the style of rider he is, well, it's not too dissimilar from Leipheimer, and Leipheimer has shown himself to be pretty good on the really steep stuff.

Leipheimer also schooled everybody on the Rettenbachferner in the 2005 Deutschlandtour, and that's one of the hardest climbs in Europe. It's basically the Mortirolo, but at 1000m more altitude.

I fully agree with you. He is untested on the long steep climbs in peak form. He may very well ride the Angliru like Nibali rode the Zoncolan this year. All he has to do is not go with a JRod or Nibali acceleration. If nibbles tries to follow Jrod he will probably crack, so Wiggins should just ride steadily and he will eventually catch Nibali.

 

[roundabout]

I'm not saying Leipheimer is a slouch on the steep climbs. I'm pointing out that Wiggins is being written off by many as weaker on the steeper stuff but we've never seen him take it on in his top form (such as that he's in right now), and if he's being written off because of the style of rider he is, well, it's not too dissimilar from Leipheimer, and Leipheimer has shown himself to be pretty good on the really steep stuff.

Leipheimer also schooled everybody on the Rettenbachferner in the 2005 Deutschlandtour, and that's one of the hardest climbs in Europe. It's basically the Mortirolo, but at 1000m more altitude.

true, but even though Wiggins hasn't had a lot of chances to ride the really steep climbs in top form I would say that at least for now Leipheimer seems to be a more accomplished rider on steep climbs and thus while the comparison is sensible I have doubts that Wiggins will do as well as Leipheimer did in 08 (in terms of placement on the stage).

I also don't expect Wiggins to lose a lot of time if that makes sense.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I'm not saying Leipheimer is a slouch on the steep climbs. I'm pointing out that Wiggins is being written off by many as weaker on the steeper stuff but we've never seen him take it on in his top form (such as that he's in right now), and if he's being written off because of the style of rider he is, well, it's not too dissimilar from Leipheimer, and Leipheimer has shown himself to be pretty good on the really steep stuff.

Leipheimer also schooled everybody on the Rettenbachferner in the 2005 Deutschlandtour, and that's one of the hardest climbs in Europe. It's basically the Mortirolo, but at 1000m more altitude.

Being good on thst steep stuff in the Deutschland Tour is different to the Vuelta.

Wait for Saturday, Sunday and the Tuesday. Guys like Nibali only need to do something on one of these stages and will be able to make up any deficit and more. Vaughters said the only reason Wiggins placed so highly in the 2009 Tour was because many of the climbs were not steep and the MTF's were ridden rather tamely. I agree he is riding well but I think Nibali will go well. If JRod is only getting 7 seconds on such a stage then I think we can say he's out of it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I fully agree with you. He is untested on the long steep climbs in peak form. He may very well ride the Angliru like Nibali rode the Zoncolan this year. All he has to do is not go with a JRod or Nibali acceleration. If nibbles tries to follow Jrod he will probably crack, so Wiggins should just ride steadily and he will eventually catch Nibali.

This is probably optimistic - Nibbles is the one in the driving seat here. He's proven on this kind of climb, he's got the lead that means he doesn't need to chase J-Rod, and he isn't the sort to panic and do it either; if he was, he'd have been more likely to have done it with Mosquera on Bola del Mundo, with only 30 seconds or so to gain, than with Rodríguez and 3 minutes. If Nibali rides his own tempo all the way up the climb it's optimistic to assume that if Wiggins rides his own he will eventually catch Nibali - we simply don't know what Wiggins' own tempo on a climb like this is.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Being good on thst steep stuff in the Deutschland Tour is different to the Vuelta.

I don't like to question people's basic reading comprehension, but did you read the thread leading in to this?

 

[goggalor]

Yay for Moncoutie. Wiggins massively impressive again. The crowds less so. The last 500 m were completely barren!

 

[auscyclefan94]

I don't like to question people's basic reading comprehension, but did you read the thread leading in to this?

I know what they have been saying. They have been talking about Wiggins' ability on the steeper gradients and people have been using Leipheimer as an example who is similar to Wiggins who has according to some dealt with the steeper gradients quite well.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

This is probably optimistic - Nibbles is the one in the driving seat here. He's proven on this kind of climb, he's got the lead that means he doesn't need to chase J-Rod, and he isn't the sort to panic and do it either; if he was, he'd have been more likely to have done it with Mosquera on Bola del Mundo, with only 30 seconds or so to gain, than with Rodríguez and 3 minutes. If Nibali rides his own tempo all the way up the climb it's optimistic to assume that if Wiggins rides his own he will eventually catch Nibali - we simply don't know what Wiggins' own tempo on a climb like this is.

Well, if the new reputed weight figures (68Kg) are anything like right, it would explain quite a bit of the performance so far this week, and would suggest that 6W/Kilo should be in compass. The issue is how well he can pick gears to stay at his pre-determined wattage.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I know what they have been saying. They have been talking about Wiggins' ability on the steeper gradients and people have been using Leipheimer as an example who is similar to Wiggins who has according to some dealt with the steeper gradients quite well.

Yes, but the Deutchland tour you mock was an achievement of Leipheimer, who has also done well in the Vuelta you contrast it with.

Nevermind, I'm too tired for an argument.

 

[gilbertador]

The issue is Wiggins wieght he must be close to 70kg whereas Nibali is probably 63kg
Now yes Basso won on Zoncolan in a tiny gear spinning away but the fact is the Angliru is steeper in that one section and irregular

Therefore Wiggins cannot replicate that and will definitely suffer

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Being good on thst steep stuff in the Deutschland Tour is different to the Vuelta.

Perhaps, but in 2005, the Deutschlandtour had a very strong lineup, and Levi had just come off 6th in the Tour as well.

Top 10 that year:

1 Levi Leipheimer (Gerolsteiner)
2 Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) +31
3 Georg Totschnig (Gerolsteiner) +1'23"
4 Jörg Jaksche (Liberty Seguros) +1'29"
5 Cadel Evans (Davitamon-Lotto) +1'53"
6 Tadej Valjavec (Phonak) +3'53"
7 Fabian Jeker (Saunier Duval) +4'26"
8 Marzio Bruseghin (Fassa Bortolo) +5'07"
9 Saul Raisin (Crédit Agricole) +6'03"
10 Patrik Sinkewitz (T-Mobile) +6'30"

That's about as good a top 10 as you'll get in any one week race.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

And there's Mollema, where nobody including Mollema himself knows how he will go.

But so far he still the most consistent/best performing climber in the race

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yay for Moncoutie. Wiggins massively impressive again. The crowds less so. The last 500 m were completely barren!

This is quite typical in Spain. A lot of the finishes of major climbs aren't really at the summits, but there's a short bit of flat and/or descent at the finish, and as the crowd really wants to see the climb, you get these strangely empty areas leading into the finish. Anglirú is also weird like that, Lagos de Covadonga, and others. The most obvious ones are Xorret del Catí, where they have to finish the climb then loop down to the finish so you get people at the finish and crazy scenes with the climb full of fans, but most of the last km is in total silence; Arrate in the Vuelta al País Vasco has a similar issue every year, as did the Orio finish after the Alto de Aia in 2010.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Yes, but the Deutchland tour you mock was an achievement of Leipheimer, who has also done well in the Vuelta you contrast it with.

Nevermind, I'm too tired for an argument.

Deutschland Tour was a good race but trying to compare Levi in 2005 in a race after the tour de france with Wiggins in la Vuelta is a little unfair.

 

[Swede1]

This is probably optimistic - Nibbles is the one in the driving seat here. He's proven on this kind of climb, he's got the lead that means he doesn't need to chase J-Rod, and he isn't the sort to panic and do it either; if he was, he'd have been more likely to have done it with Mosquera on Bola del Mundo, with only 30 seconds or so to gain, than with Rodríguez and 3 minutes. If Nibali rides his own tempo all the way up the climb it's optimistic to assume that if Wiggins rides his own he will eventually catch Nibali - we simply don't know what Wiggins' own tempo on a climb like this is.

Didnt nibbles try to follow mosquera on the first MTF in the Vuelta last year and crack? He probably won't make that mistake again, but its possible that he overestimates his own ability. Since Wiggins is in the lead, Nibali has to attack him and all Wiggins has to do is stay in his slipstream. THe only way to drop Wiggins is an explosive attack and im not sure nibbles can sustain his effort after an explosive attack. But yeah we don't really know how he will respond, so its probly optimistic to say he will stay with Nibali, and its probably just wrong to say he will crack and lose massive amounts of time.

 

[auscyclefan94]

How did Matthias Frank look? After my spray of BMC, they finally get a result.

 

[maltiv]

How did Matthias Frank look? After my spray of BMC, they finally get a result.

Extremely tired. Has to be said though that the other two who bridged up to the break, Txurruka and Duarte, were even worse, underperforming quite massively. I guess the 3 of them used too much energy bridging to the break.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Didnt nibbles try to follow mosquera on the first MTF in the Vuelta last year and crack? He probably won't make that mistake again, but its possible that he overestimates his own ability. Since Wiggins is in the lead, Nibali has to attack him and all Wiggins has to do is stay in his slipstream. THe only way to drop Wiggins is an explosive attack and im not sure nibbles can sustain his effort after an explosive attack. But yeah we don't really know how he will respond, so its probly optimistic to say he will stay with Nibali, and its probably just wrong to say he will crack and lose massive amounts of time.

But as we haven't seen Wiggins climb on anything this steep, why would Nibali need an explosive attack to drop him? Why couldn't he just ride him off his wheel? Wiggins could do anything from sit on Nibali's wheel smiling and breathing through his mouth all the way, to cracking like an egg and losing ten minutes. We just don't know.

Nibali suffered a few times in the Giro and lost time - but always managed to find his way back to the main contenders. The big thing with this of course is there's no descent to pull it back.

And Nibali was cracked on Pal - and the gain was 22 seconds. Do we consider that Wiggins can crack Nibali like Mosquera did that day? Mosquera attacked, and Nibali responded. In fact it was very similar to how he behaved on La Covatilla.

On Anglirú, the only people whose attacks Nibali really needs to respond to are Wiggins and maybe Mollema. The only really explosive, attacking climbers who will tear things apart are far enough down that Nibbles can afford to just ride them back to him. Wiggins isn't explosive at all, and so he simply needs to ride Nibali off his wheel or come in together with him. That suits Nibali down to the ground.

 

[jsem94]

Nibs should go for a head-start into the climb a la Jelle & Samu in the Tour, right before the Angliru. But he'd beat Wiggins on the climb anyway.

 

[Thomsena]

The best thing for Wiggins was a strong, steady, pace. It plays to his strengths, but more importantly it discourages attacks and makes it tough for those who do attack to get a significant gap. Froome was the last Sky domestique left, so it was his job to set that pace.

Because he did it so effectively, there wasn't a meaningful attack until Martin went off with Mollema and Slagter. At that point Wiggins was still fresh and was able to grind his way up behind them. If Wiggins had shared the work earlier with Froome he might not have been able to do that. If Sky had neglected to set the pace in the first place, there would have been more serious attacks and Wiggins would have used energy dealing with them.

No. That mountain was nowhere near hard enough to do any damage. JRod eventually tried 1-2 kms before the finish line and got like 7 seconds.. It was windy and easier to sit behind wheels. And it really was not that strong, steady pace. The drama first started when Wiggins paced it up a bit. I could undestand it if Froome just hammered the peloton into pieces but it was just this halfhearted work that never justified the importance of the red shirt. They are not really in a hurry are they? It's not really up to Sky to gain time at this moment.

 

[RedZone]

edited for being a muppet

 

[jens_attacks]

Estación de Montaña Manzaneda
2011:last 15 km@6,3%---38:23---average speed 23.45 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)

epic boring stage is boring.

14 guys in the favourites group,unbearable stage for manolo saiz