2012 Criterium du Dauphiné

[DominicDecoco]

Ahhhh. Let's not make an in-form Tony worse than he actually is. What he has shown up until now means nothing.

 

[Havetts]

Quite disappointed with only the Joux-Plane stage & TT to break up the GC. On the other hand, Joux-Plane means massacre

 

[cycladianpirate]

Poor parcours?

What do you want? Something so tough that anyone riding in the Tour would avoid like the plague? Or just use as a training ride? The organisers have to strike a balance surely?

And the fact that the Schleck bros aren't interested is, in my opinion, hardly evidence that the route is "wrong"....

 

[maltiv]

It's more than hard enough to get rid of Tony Martin. He will lose several minutes on stage 6. It being a downhill finish doesn't change anything, the favorites will absolutely race it as hard as any MTF. However, the fact that it finishes downhill means that Wiggins won't be as much a favorite as he would've been, as he can easily lose 30 seconds or so to guys like Nibali and Evans on the descent.

 

[Havetts]

What I like about the Joux-Plane stage aswell is that it instantly starts on a cat 1. climb, which means from the get go it'll be tough and anyone with a slow start might get in trouble.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Poor parcours?

What do you want? Something so tough that anyone riding in the Tour would avoid like the plague? Or just use as a training ride? The organisers have to strike a balance surely?

And the fact that the Schleck bros aren't interested is, in my opinion, hardly evidence that the route is "wrong"....

So, almost 60kms of time trialing and the Joux Plane make for a balanced, one week race?

I see your and raise you

 

[Bavarianrider]

So, almost 60kms of time trialing and the Joux Plane make for a balanced, one week race?

I see your and raise you

Actualy it's more then balanced.

60km of flat TT that's roughly 75 Minutes for rolleurs to gaine time
Joux Plane = roghly 35 for climbers to gain time.
Stage 6 offers roughly The Cat 2 and 1 mountain offer roughly35 minutes too + the way to the finish were climbers could increase their gaps.
Grand Colmbiere: The race isn't decided here, but surely pure rolleurs can be droped ins uch a way that they can't come back.
So actually the route offers roughly the same amount of Time for both TTlers as well as Climbers. And it's certainly difficult enough that pure rolleurs don't have a chance at all.
So all in all a very fair course

 

[cycladianpirate]

So, almost 60kms of time trialing and the Joux Plane make for a balanced, one week race?

I see your and raise you

I meant 'striking a balance' between setting a route that will be raced and setting one that will be merely used as a warm up for the Tour.

Given where the Dauphine sits in the calendar, you have to accept that the organisers are forced to have one eye on the Tour when deciding the route, don't you?

Oh, and my , referred to my comment about the Schlecks. Assuming you realised that, I'll happily reraise you!! Sod it, I'll go all-in.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So today is the official presentation. Unlike this year Tour and P-N, nothing has leaked as I know. Hope for a great route, in contrast to the 2012 Tour, which just tickles the Alps. We also might get a clue about next year's Alps of the Tour.

I hoped for a great route, and as usual my optimism was stamped on, spat on and wiped into the ground before being curbstomped.

the worst course in years btw. very disapointing.

Absolutely.

what more did you want? Mont Ventoux, usually overcome on all fours? quite ordinary parcours.

No, I wanted more than ONE CLIMB to offset SIXTY KILOMETRES of ITT.

To be honest, I'm a bit disapointed but not really surprised. Would have liked a MTF.

Anyone got a profile/details for Joux Plane?

The Joux-Plane stage will be great. But there are usually two major mountain stages with a third that can make a difference. Here we have ONE stage that can make a difference. The final stage can only account for a few seconds, and stage 5 unbelievably manages to do a WORSE job of incorporating the Col du Grand-Colombier than the Tour.

I've been campaigning for the inclusion of this climb in major races for a long time, and now I wish they hadn't bothered, since this is the greatest misuse of a climb since the Tarbes stage of the 2009 Tour.

Joux-Plane rescues a poor route.

Quite something to consider that they've somehow managed to make a Grand Colombier stage that's acutally worse than that in le Tour!

Absolutely.

Sh*t awful route.
SOooo much clock watching.
Nowhere near enough opportunity for attacking the collective trains that will run here.
In short, the usual one week mirror of Le Tour.
Says all we need to know about it's big brother.

Martin survives the Joux Plane: He wins.
Martin climbs like normal: Wiggins wins.
Cadel either 2nd or 3rd, depending on the German grinder.

Schlecks to ToS.

Major snoozefest, for most of Europe and the US.

Pretty much. This is the summer equivalent of the 2011 Paris-Nice. Claw at that nice potential anglophone audience by giving them a bunch of easy wins on soft parcours.

Hell, if he arrives in 2009 Tour de Suisse form, Cancellara could top 5 this. Pathetic.

the route is bad but it can still be a great race.

it "can". But it "won't".

very bad route. . .

it needed another though mountain stage imo.

Perhaps, but it just needed to actually use the mountains it's using better. Or in fact AT ALL. Expect either the breakaway to gain 10 irrelevant minutes or a bunch sprint in the Grand-Colombier stage won by Óscar Freire or Peter Sagan. Joke.

I think there's plenty of mountains.
The grand Colombier is a super dooper tough climb. All climbers have to do is attack right from the beginning and non climbers will never come back. If everybody goes up the Colombier at full speed there won't hardly be groups at all. It's just that todays climbers don't have the guts to try something big.
The Joux Plane stage is great.
The last stage is actually pretty good too and offers lots of mountains to attack.

By "lots of mountains" you mean "about three kilometres at the end", right? There's no way at all that people are going from the start of Colombier and holding on to the finish. The teams like Sky and Radioshack have far too much vested interest in the race being boring and far too strong trains on both the climb and the flat for that. If there were about 10-15 flat kilometres after the descent, sure. With about 60km of vaguely uphill false flat and then pancake flat? No way.

Poor parcours?

What do you want? Something so tough that anyone riding in the Tour would avoid like the plague? Or just use as a training ride? The organisers have to strike a balance surely?

And the fact that the Schleck bros aren't interested is, in my opinion, hardly evidence that the route is "wrong"....

They don't need to include more mountains per se. They need to include MORE THAN ONE STAGE where they can actually make a difference.

Otherwise this is "win the TT, win the race." Again.

 

[cycladianpirate]

They don't need to include more mountains per se. They need to include MORE THAN ONE STAGE where they can actually make a difference.

Otherwise this is "win the TT, win the race." Again.

OK. You want more MTFs. What do the tour contenders do then? Really, really race those stages?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

OK. You want more MTFs. What do the tour contenders do then? Really, really race those stages?

Not necessarily MTFs. The Joux-Plane stage will be better for not being an MTF.

However, stages 5 and 7 are pathetic wastes of the mountains they include.

"more opportunities to make up time outside of 60km of ITTs" does not mean "more MTFs"; an MTF is only one way of making a climb decisive. Placing it 70km from the finish with only a bit of false flat afterwards is a way to make a climb totally irrelevant.

I don't even necessarily want the race to be climber-centric... I just want the climbs to actually do something for the action. Climbing Grand-Colombier 70km from the finish and having nothing but gentle false flat and pancake flat to the line from there begs the question, why climb Grand-Colombier at all? If you have a climb like that, you have to use it in a way that makes it worthwhile. If you have connecting climbs? Great! If you have it cresting 35km from the finish with a descent then 15 flat kilometres, fine! That can tempt attacks! Where it is? That won't.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Not necessarily MTFs. The Joux-Plane stage will be better for not being an MTF.

However, stages 5 and 7 are pathetic wastes of the mountains they include.

"more opportunities to make up time outside of 60km of ITTs" does not mean "more MTFs"; an MTF is only one way of making a climb decisive. Placing it 70km from the finish with only a bit of false flat afterwards is a way to make a climb totally irrelevant.

I don't even necessarily want the race to be climber-centric... I just want the climbs to actually do something for the action. Climbing Grand-Colombier 70km from the finish and having nothing but gentle false flat and pancake flat to the line from there begs the question, why climb Grand-Colombier at all? If you have a climb like that, you have to use it in a way that makes it worthwhile. If you have connecting climbs? Great! If you have it cresting 35km from the finish with a descent then 15 flat kilometres, fine! That can tempt attacks! Where it is? That won't.

Weigh are they a waste of mountains? The mountain is always the same. It's just the riders who don't ahve the guts or quality to attack. Attacking on the foot of the Grand Colombier and the field is totally destroyed.

 

[Eshnar]

OK. You want more MTFs. What do the tour contenders do then? Really, really race those stages?

Will they really race that ITT?
If they're gonna race a 60 kms ITT, then I expect them to race a few proper mountain stages too. It's not like ITTs are easier.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

They should have included at least nine MTFs.

 

[Eshnar]

Weigh are they a waste of mountains? The mountain is always the same. It's just the riders who don't ahve the guts or quality to attack. Attacking on the foot of the Grand Colombier and the field is totally destroyed.

Yes like Galibier last year
How big was the peloton on the foot of L'Alpe?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

They should have included at least nine MTFs.

Why does everybody assume that by wanting better use of the mountains, I want MTFs?

The 2011 Giro and 2012 Vuelta suffer from having TOO MANY MTFs.

There is a difference between "using a mountain well" and "putting 70km of gentle false flat and pancake flat after it".

2009 Tour, Stage 17: How to do a mountain stage without an MTF well. See also: Monte Grappa, 2010 Giro; Grindelwald, 2011 Tour de Suisse; Pinerolo, 2011 Tour.

2009 Tour, Stage 9: How to do a mountain stage without an MTF badly.

I suppose the riders were just too chicken to attack 85km out there? Or maybe, just maybe, it was entirely pointless given the strength of some of the TT guys' teams?

This is an awful route. NOT because it lacks a major MTF, but because it lacks a second stage where people can realistically hope to make up time. As it is, it'll end up like the 2011 Paris-Nice, where in the last couple of stages quality riders like Xavi Tondó and Samuel Sánchez could attack, and the others could just go "bye, see you guys later, have fun!" because they were complete and utter irrelevances to the GC thanks to the overlong TT.

53km is not an overlong TT for the Dauphiné; it's long, but not super long. Given the weak route in terms of options for others to make up the time lost, however, it is extremely long.

 

[hrotha]

Stage 7 is great, just not as a mountain stage for the GC guys.

 

[cycladianpirate]

Not necessarily MTFs. The Joux-Plane stage will be better for not being an MTF.

However, stages 5 and 7 are pathetic wastes of the mountains they include.

"more opportunities to make up time outside of 60km of ITTs" does not mean "more MTFs"; an MTF is only one way of making a climb decisive. Placing it 70km from the finish with only a bit of false flat afterwards is a way to make a climb totally irrelevant.

I don't even necessarily want the race to be climber-centric... I just want the climbs to actually do something for the action. Climbing Grand-Colombier 70km from the finish and having nothing but gentle false flat and pancake flat to the line from there begs the question, why climb Grand-Colombier at all? If you have a climb like that, you have to use it in a way that makes it worthwhile. If you have connecting climbs? Great! If you have it cresting 35km from the finish with a descent then 15 flat kilometres, fine! That can tempt attacks! Where it is? That won't.

I take your point. But (and I do not mean this as a criticism in any way), isn't your romanticism making you blind to the "realpolitik" of professional road racing?

Is not Le Tour the great behemoth of road cycling? As far as the general public, advertisers, sponsors, et al are concerned, is it not the 'be all and end all'?

So, here you are, staging a one-week race within weeks of the Grande Boucle. What do you do?

1. Just admit it's a warm-up for the 'real thing' - and, so, set a warm-up parcours.

2. Say "to hell with Le Tour", we are going to make this a genuine event - and so, set up the very 'best' one-week stage race you could imagine.

3. Try to find a compromise between 1 & 2.

I don't think they've done a terribly bad job at number 3. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The realpolitik has done a great job of delivering us crappy parcours recently. I think Tirreno-Adriatico is just about the only stage race that's had a good parcours this year.

Catalunya could have been quite good if the queen stage went ahead. But this is possibly an even more criminal misuse of terrain than País Vasco.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

Of course I was joking.

This is an awful route. NOT because it lacks a major MTF, but because it lacks a second stage where people can realistically hope to make up time.

There's no second long ITT either, so what's your point here?

ITT specialists will suffer hard on Colombier and Joux Plane, climbers will suffer at the ITT. That's quite balanced.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

My biggest problem is that it will be a very boring race to do on PCM 12....

 

[Eshnar]

The realpolitik has done a great job of delivering us crappy parcours recently. I think Tirreno-Adriatico is just about the only stage race that's had a good parcours this year.

Catalunya could have been quite good if the queen stage went ahead. But this is possibly an even more criminal misuse of terrain than País Vasco.

Trentino looks promising too, though they haven't unveiled the profiles yet.

 

[Lexman]

The realpolitik has done a great job of delivering us crappy parcours recently. I think Tirreno-Adriatico is just about the only stage race that's had a good parcours this year.

Yes indeed most interesting stage race so far

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course I was joking.



There's no second long ITT either, so what's your point here?

ITT specialists will suffer hard on Colombier and Joux Plane, climbers will suffer at the ITT. That's quite balanced.

2011 Dauphiné:
48km ITT
2 x major mountain stages (both MTFs)
Winner of ITT won the race

2010 Dauphiné:
55,8km ITT
3 x major mountain stages (2 MTFs)
Winner of ITT won the race

2009 Dauphiné:
54,5km ITT
3 x major mountain stages (2 MTFs)
Winner of ITT placed 2nd, 12th in ITT won the race

2008 Dauphiné:
36,6km ITT
4 x major mountain stages (1 MTF)
Winner of ITT won the race


Now... 2012 Dauphiné:
58,9km ITT
1 x major mountain stage (0 MTFs)
Winner of ITT wins the race?

 

[Lexman]

still no word of Dauphine on Cycling news...