2012 Gilbert:Genghis Khan-like total annihilation of the classics?

[will10]

That wasn't a 200 M sprint, that was a sprint from 1000m up until 400 m or so when Cance saw it and accelerated again. Tomke came very very close

??

Boonen doesn't even come out of the wheel of Flecha until the last bend at 400m to go, so I'm not sure which race you were watching if you saw him open up the sprint with 1km to go...

 

[will10]

If Chavanel would have co-operated with Cancellara at the Ronde he would have won the race.

+1 He was the best that day.

 

[jens_attacks]

look what you did to my thread of phil and mongols ...thank you

oh how much i'd like to see phil crushing cancellara's nuts in roubaix next year.

 

[El Pistolero]

look what you did to my thread of phil and mongols ...thank you

oh how much i'd like to see phil crushing cancellara's nuts in roubaix next year.

He's sadly not going to ride it next year

Let's keep our fingers crossed he wins Milan-San Remo, the Ronde, Liège(you need two wins in Liège, it's a rule) and the Worlds next year so he can focus everything on Roubaix in 2013

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Depends on who would be at the front in the final 500 meters I guess, but Chavanel has a pretty good sprint.

I'd take Cancellara over Chavanel in a sprint every day of the week.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'd take Cancellara over Chavanel in a sprint every day of the week.

Except on the first Sunday of April you mean?

 

[Michielveedeebee]

??

Boonen doesn't even come out of the wheel of Flecha until the last bend at 400m to go, so I'm not sure which race you were watching if you saw him open up the sprint with 1km to go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-XkDZH_40s

600/550-150 then

 

[will10]

Except on the first Sunday of April you mean?

Cancellara is faster than Chavanel 90% of the time. However Fabian panicked at Flanders and led it out early when he saw Boonen looming behind.

No way would Chavanel be able to replicate some of FC's sprint finishes - 4th at a flat Worlds, a couple of top 10s in TdF finishes on the Champs etc etc.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Cancellara is faster than Chavanel 90% of the time. However Fabian panicked at Flanders and led it out early when he saw Boonen looming behind.

No way would Chavanel be able to replicate some of FC's sprint finishes - 4th at a flat Worlds, a couple of top 10s in TdF finishes on the Champs etc etc.

True dat, Canc has a pretty impressive sprint, he also beat Gilbert at MSR this year

 

[El Pistolero]

Cancellara is faster than Chavanel 90% of the time. However Fabian panicked at Flanders and led it out early when he saw Boonen looming behind.

No way would Chavanel be able to replicate some of FC's sprint finishes - 4th at a flat Worlds, a couple of top 10s in TdF finishes on the Champs etc etc.

He doesn't need to replicate that as a sprint at the Ronde is not the same a a sprint at a flat Worlds.

At the end of a long race it's about who has the freshest legs. And it wasn't Chavanel asking other teams for water

Getting top ten in TdF stages and a totally flat worlds is all about placing your self at the front of the peloton. A sprint with two is well... A sprint with two.

 

[El Pistolero]

True dat, Canc has a pretty impressive sprint, he also beat Gilbert at MSR this year

What's impressive about that? Gilbert played all or nothing as did Pozzato. I can assure you that 90% of the time it will be Pozzato beating Cancellara in a sprint, but in a race like that it's all about freshness.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Except on the first Sunday of April you mean?

No I'd take him there as well.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I think he will win RvV, AGR and the WC RR.
.

agreed.

These are the 3 major wins I envisage for gilbert.

 

[movingtarget]

I'd take Cancellara over Chavanel in a sprint every day of the week.

I suppose they are similar in that they both usually win on their own not in a sprint but looking at Cancellara's sprint against Matt Goss at MSR, I have doubts about Chavanel winning a sprint against him. Fair enough Goss sat up when he knew he had it won but Cancellara was very good that day.

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara didn't drop Chavanel because he couldn't, not because he didn't want to drop him lol. How else was he going to win the race you think? .

By dropping Chavanel once they were both free to contest the victory. Once there was a gap to the peloton.

By dropping him in the final 10k?

Nope, sorry, when you are right you are right.

That never would have worked.

NEVER.

IMPOSSIBLE.

He could only win the race by dropping Chavanel from 30k out. To win it by dropping him in the final 10k or on the final hill, NO CHANCE.

My bad.

I'm pretty sure Cancellara though the peloton would never see him again and was only concerned with winning.

Yes, he was concerned with winning and he hoped not to see the peloton again.

To achieve this he needed to put a BIG GAP into the peloton.

Or do you think Cancellara thought that once he put 30 seconds into Boonen the race was won? Cos from what you write thats what it seems like.

He was a billion times better than Cancellara that day(warning: this is a hyperbole). Cancellara wins by attacking on the flat. If you attack someone on the flat and you get a gap you rode them of your wheel

Well you really lost me here.

Cancellara wins on the flat ergo he cant attack uphill.

Attacking is the same as riding someone off your wheel?

wtf are you talking about.

First of all didnt cancellara attack uphill against both the peloton and late Boonen in RVV 2010.

This disproves totaly one of your claims - this.

Cancellara wins by attacking on the flat.

So I have just established that your posts are prone to fantasy.

I rest my case.

Actually, scrap that this is too tempting. Ill continue.

You seem to be ignorant of the difference between attacking someone and riding them off your wheel.

An Attack is when you make a sudden burst, short increase in speed in order to get away from an opponent in order to be able to then ride without them on your wheel.

On the other hand to ride someone off your wheel you maintain a steady pace until they crack. This is very difficult on a flat even for Cancellara because of slipsteam. As such it is far more common uphill and even then riders like Contador prefer to attack so as to not let the opponent get any slipstream.

So if it is difficult to ride people off your wheel EVEN at 20km/h, how is Cancellara supposed to do it at 50km/h when Sylvain is getting a nice draft????

To drop Chavanel (unles Sylvain was feeling really weak) Cancellara would have needed an attack. The attack would have come later in the race once his advantage was very clear. To do it 30k out would have been pointless which is why he didnt do it, yet you seem convinced that the fact that he didnt attack Chavanel with 30km to go is because Chavanel was stronger.

 

[Panda Claws]

The 3 best men at this year's RVV were probably Cancellara, Chavanel and Gilbert. (Ballan was pretty strong as well.)


Boonen was not all that powerful that day, he even said that in the post-race interviews. In fact, he was surprised that he was still in the 'lead group' when they arrived at the finish.


Cancellara
Keeping the pack at a distance for such a long time even while the BMC train is riding behind you is pretty damn impressive. Add to that how demoralising it must have been to have a very powerful Chavanel just sitting in your wheel the entire time.

There are very few riders by the way that would manage to put in an attack like that (at 3km's from the finish) while being completely cracked before.


Chavanel
Rode solo for a long time as El Pistolero said and managed to ride with Cancellara very easily. Was also the only one besides Nuyens who could follow Cancellara's late attack.


Gilbert
We will never know if he could/would have responded to Cancellara's early attack because he had a flat tire. What we do know is that he could very well have been the strongest on the Bosberg. Overestimation of his own abilities while underestimating those of his competitors could very well have cost him the race that day.

 

[The Hitch]

What's impressive about that? Gilbert played all or nothing as did Pozzato. I can assure you that 90% of the time it will be Pozzato beating Cancellara in a sprint, but in a race like that it's all about freshness.

Case Study 1

Chavanel barely beats Cancellara after Canc plays the role of Bernard Eisel Tony Martin and Mark Renshawm to Sylvains cav, even leading him out.

Chavanel is better than Cancellara.


Case Study 2

Cancellara beats Gilbert in a sprint after Gilbert tries 1 attack on the Poggio which Canc follows.

Cancellara is not better than Gilbert, Gilbert was tired.


lolololololol.

 

[El Pistolero]

Case Study 1

Chavanel barely beats Cancellara after Canc plays the role of Bernard Eisel Tony Martin and Mark Renshawm to Sylvains cav, even leading him out.

Chavanel is better than Cancellara.


Case Study 2

Cancellara beats Gilbert in a sprint after Gilbert tries 1 attack on the Poggio which Canc follows.

Cancellara is not better than Gilbert, Gilbert was tired.


lolololololol.

Sadly for you I only mentioned Pozzato beating Cancellara 90% of the time and not Gilbert. I don't think beating Gilbert in a sprint after he just went on the attack is impressive. Beating Tom Boonen in a sprint is impressive because Boonen is an actual good sprinter

As for all your other nonsense in your other post I won't even bother reacting to most of it. I never said anything about Cancellara not being able to attack uphill and what else or him needing to drop Chavanel from 30km to go. I said he couldn't drop Chavanel that day at any point of the race, otherwise he'd have done so And yes, he tried. Both on the hills and on the flat. And he failed.

And yes, Cancellara wins classics by attacking on the flat:

Paris-Roubaix 2006: he didn't even attack on the cobbles, but on a normal road
Milan-San Remo 2008: attacked right after the descend of the Poggio
Paris-Roubaix 2010: he attacked on a normal road.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2011: surprise attack in the final flat 3km, got third.
Paris-Roubaix 2011: surprise attack in the final kms, got second.

Ronde van Vlaanderen 2010 is the only exception where Cancellara made his winning move uphill.

Yes, I think it's fair to say Cancellara usually wins his races by riding everyone off his wheels on the flat. Why would you make a distinction between riding someone off your wheel and attacking? It can mean the same thing. When Gilbert attacked on the Cauberg, he rode everyone of his wheel. Cancellara usually wins his races by riding everyone of his wheel on the flat. Why do you keep arguing about how I formulate a sentence? I never said Cancellara never attacks, that are assumptions by you.

As to make this thread go on-topic again:

Gilbert will annihilate Cancellara. Bruyneel is cursed: he'll never win classics!

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Sadly for you I only mentioned Pozzato beating Cancellara 90% of the time and not Gilbert. I don't think beating Gilbert in a sprint after he just went on the attack is impressive. Beating Tom Boonen in a sprint is impressive because Boonen is an actual good sprinter

.

Ah but Philbert already had a 20 m lead in the last 100 m before Boonen realised that our dear Bozic was as dead as one can be on a bike

 

[El Pistolero]

Ah but Philbert already had a 20 m lead in the last 100 m before Boonen realised that our dear Bozic was as dead as one can be on a bike

Sometimes the smartest wins, not the fastest. Even a little child could tell Boonen was much faster than Gilbert there. Yet he got beaten in the sprint. Isn't that impressive? Or is beating someone who's a little slower/just as fast as you more impressive?

 

[will10]

Sometimes the smartest wins, not the fastest. Even a little child could tell Boonen was much faster than Gilbert there. Yet he got beaten in the sprint. Isn't that impressive? Or is beating someone who's a little slower/just as fast as you more impressive?

In the same situation as Boonen I'd have picked the wheel of Bozic too, seeing as he's the other sprinter in the group, not Gilbert. Hindsight is always 20-20

 

[El Pistolero]

In the same situation as Boonen I'd have picked the wheel of Bozic too, seeing as he's the other sprinter in the group, not Gilbert. Hindsight is always 20-20

So would I, but Gilbert was counting on that one moment of hesitation between the two sprinters. That's why he started his sprint so early. Check out the gear he was on in that sprint He came prepared.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Sometimes the smartest wins, not the fastest. Even a little child could tell Boonen was much faster than Gilbert there. Yet he got beaten in the sprint. Isn't that impressive? Or is beating someone who's a little slower/just as fast as you more impressive?

Boonen was the smartest imo, taking the wheel of the other sprinter was the best thing to do. Gilbert got lucky there, but he was also properly positioned in last place.

 

[El Pistolero]

Boonen was the smartest imo, taking the wheel of the other sprinter was the best thing to do. Gilbert got lucky there, but he was also properly positioned in last place.

Why did he get lucky? Lucky that Bozic isn't an even better cyclist than he currently is? Fair to say that Gilbert's attack that dropped GVA also killed the legs of Bozic. You create your own luck.

Which reminds me of a quote

To a great general, luck is important - Livius

Ps: Boonen also rode a smart race there by reacting on GVA's attack which was the winning move. That I'm not going to deny

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Why did he get lucky? Lucky that Bozic isn't an even better cyclist than he currently is? Fair to say that Gilbert's attack that dropped GVA also killed the legs of Bozic. You create your own luck.

Which reminds me of a quote

To a great general, luck is important - Livius

Ps: Boonen also rode a smart race there by reacting on GVA's attack which was the winning move. That I'm not going to deny

Nono, lucky that Boonen didn't immediatly react to his sprint but waited a bit in Bozic wheel I didn't say his win was undeserved but that he got lucky
Yet you have a point, luck is important as well