2012 Gilbert:Genghis Khan-like total annihilation of the classics?

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Which of those races will be freshly put in Phil's palmares this season?

  • Giro dell'Emilia

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El Pistolero said:
Yes, I think it's fair to say Cancellara usually wins his races by riding everyone off his wheels on the flat. Why would you make a distinction between riding someone off your wheel and attacking?
No there is a big difference between riding someone off your wheel and attacking and I already explained it.

Attack = short deliberate burst of speed.
Riding off wheel = long constant high speed.

Its either one or the other. I know you are trying to hide your mistakes in now pretending they are one and the same but they are NOT.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
No there is a big difference between riding someone off your wheel and attacking and I already explained it.

Attack = short deliberate burst of speed.
Riding off wheel = long constant high speed.

Its either one or the other. I know you are trying to hide your mistakes in now pretending they are one and the same but they are NOT.
If someone's riding with a long constant high speed with the goal of dropping everyone than it's an attack. Or do you think Basso won the Giro by never attacking?

If someone is riding with a long constant high speed with no intention of dropping the guys on your wheel than it's obviously not an attack.

So you're saying Gilbert never rode someone of his wheel?

Lol. It's just a figure of speech. I'm not hiding my mistakes as I made none.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Michielveedeebee said:
Nono, lucky that Boonen didn't immediatly react to his sprint but waited a bit in Bozic wheel :p I didn't say his win was undeserved but that he got lucky
Yet you have a point, luck is important as well
That wasn't lucky per se, it was tactically the correct thing for Boonen to do as normally Bozic is a faster sprinter than Phil. Gilbert was counting on sprinting early, so he could hopefully benefit from a slight hesitation between the 2 faster men. Of course there's some luck(and bad luck) involved, but that's the case in every race.

I see it as playing a game of chess and Gilbert was thinking one step ahead of Boonen.
 
will10 said:
I can see Hitch painting himself into a corner here.

Challenge Hitch
Cancellara's move at 4:25 - "attack" or "riding off wheel"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUWTwPu_LA&feature=related

Next one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM
Cancellara moves from BEHIND and immediately increases the pace.

The Rabo rider tries to respond but is unable to keep up.

He is not setting a constant high pace in the hope that the rider behind will crack, but instead gives a short burst of speed in an attempt to remove the rabo rider from his slipstream as quickly as possible.

Perhaps a better term than "riding someone of your wheel" can be found, but Pistolero is arguing that an attack and a short grind where your opponent cracks are 1 and the same thing.

As for the second video its TOTALy different because its in the final km.

Cancellaras aim is NOT to create a gap to the others, hes merely trying to get over the line just in front of the others.

An attack is designed to create a gap. Setting a high tempo to crack a rider behind is also designed to get a gap. What Cancellara is doing there is sort of like a long sprint. He sets a high pace with the aim of not letting anyone overtake, and staying ahead of the others just long enough to cross the line first,
 
El Pistolero said:
If someone's riding with a long constant high speed with the goal of dropping everyone than it's an attack. Or do you think Basso won the Giro by never attacking?.
Yes. And Evans won the Tour without attacking.

If you merely set a high pace and hope the rider behind you cracks eg Mosquera that is not an attack it is setting a high tempo and dropping the others.

You seem to think that any time a two riders lose contact it is an attack.

So Ill put it to you like this.


So according to you if Basso sets a high tempo and Evans falls behind it is an attack.

Ok then.

What if Nibali is in front of Basso and is setting a high tempo, does that mean both Nibali AND Basso have just attacked Evans?

Ok then.

And what if Saxo Bank are setting the pace on the Madellin and Evans falls behind. Does that mean the WHOLE PELOTON has just attacked Evans?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Yes. And Evans won the Tour without attacking.

If you merely set a high pace and hope the rider behind you cracks eg Mosquera that is not an attack it is setting a high tempo and dropping the others.

You seem to think that any time a two riders lose contact it is an attack.

So Ill put it to you like this.


So according to you if Basso sets a high tempo and Evans falls behind it is an attack.

Ok then.

What if Nibali is in front of Basso and is setting a high tempo, does that mean both Nibali AND Basso have just attacked Evans?

Ok then.

And what if Saxo Bank are setting the pace on the Madellin and Evans falls behind. Does that mean the WHOLE PELOTON has just attacked Evans?
Riding someone from your wheel means riding someone from your wheel. It can be an attack, but it doesn't have to be an attack. What's so hard to understand about that lol? When Nibali is descending he's doing it to put the other guys under pressure. He rides them off his wheel in the descend and you can trust that it's an attack.

If a team like Quickstep is pulling echelons they're attacking the peloton and not a specific cyclist ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5KOg-uLUhQ

If this isn't riding people off your wheel than I don't know what is.
 
El Pistolero said:
Riding someone from your wheel means riding someone from your wheel. It can be an attack, but it doesn't have to be an attack. What's so hard to understand about that lol? .
Nothings hard to understand for me. Ive made very clear distinctions between what I believe to be dropping someone with a deliberate short burst, often tactically coming from behind (an attack), and dropping someone by setting a constant high pace, putting then into the red.

These 2 actions are very very different.

It is you who act as if they are the same.

You havent offered any distinctions or explenations yourself, just keep talking about how both are the same, and act as if im brilliant with dumb questions (eg whats so hard to understand about that lol).

And you didnt answer my question either (which were the whole point of the post you were responding to :cool:) If a Cadel EVans cracks and falls behind when a high pace is being set up the mountain has he just been attacked by 40 riders?

THis is exactly why people like Timmy call you El Pickle. You dont answer any of the challenges or questions put to you, but rather distort the posts and offer digressions suggesting you haven't really read the posts you are responding to.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Nothings hard to understand for me. Ive made very clear distinctions between what I believe to be dropping someone with a deliberate short burst, often tactically coming from behind (an attack), and dropping someone by setting a constant high pace, putting then into the red.

These 2 actions are very very different.

It is you who act as if they are the same.

You havent offered any distinctions or explenations yourself, just keep talking about how both are the same, and act as if im brilliant with dumb questions (eg whats so hard to understand about that lol).

And you didnt answer my question either (which were the whole point of the post you were responding to :cool:) If a Cadel EVans cracks and falls behind when a high pace is being set up the mountain has he just been attacked by 40 riders?

THis is exactly why people like Timmy call you El Pickle. You dont answer any of the challenges or questions put to you, but rather distort the posts and offer digressions suggesting you haven't really read the posts you are responding to.
You just distort sentences and put things in everyone's mouth that they didn't say(like you claiming to know why I liked the new course of the Ronde better). I already told you, riding someone of your wheel can be because of an attack, but it doesn't have to be one. It's all about the intention behind the person or team riding someone off their wheels.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/attack

3. Sports
a. An offensive action in a sport or game.
b. The players executing such an action.

If Basso hits the front in a mountain to put up a high speed in order to drop everyone from his wheel than it's an attack. Why? Because he went on the offensive by hitting the front instead of being defensive and sucking wheels. You can say Basso rode them all of their wheels, but you can also say Basso went on the attack and people dropped from his wheel. I honestly don't see how you can have a problem with such an easy definition, but whatever.

As for your Cadel Evans example. It makes no sense for the following reason: never in the history of the sport have 40 different cyclists helped in putting up a high pace in a mountain. It's usually just one or two teams working together with some of their climbers. 5-6 cyclists at most... If these riders rode with the intention of splintering the peloton and bringing their GC adversaries into the red zone then yeah, they're attacking the peloton. Not an individual per se.

Riding someone off your wheel is an offensive action in a sport(if you had the intention of riding them off your wheel at least), so it's an attack. It's that simple really.
 
El Pistolero said:
I honestly don't see how you can have a problem with such an easy definition, but whatever.
Uh, you never even offered that definition until now. And yet you complain that I have a problem with it.

Do you realize your own stupidity???

You just distort sentences and put things in everyone's mouth that they didn't say(like you claiming to know why I liked the new course of the Ronde better). I already told you, riding someone of your wheel can be because of an attack, but it doesn't have to be one.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/attack

3. Sports
a. An offensive action in a sport or game.
b. The players executing such an action.

If Basso hits the front in a mountain to put up a high speed in order to drop everyone from his wheel than it's an attack. Why? Because he went on the offensive by hitting the front instead of being defensive and sucking wheels. You can say Basso rode them all of their wheels, but you can also say Basso went on the attack and people dropped from his wheel.
Theres a difference between going on the attack and launching an attack.

Besides that is no cycling dictionary anyway.

"Going on the attack" which you what talk about above, merely means that someone is taking an offensive action of some sort, even if it is really slow and can apply to anything not just in cycling. You could even say Basso is going on the attack when he asks Szmyd to start setting a high pace. You can say he is going on the attack by asking Liquigas to give him a good team for the race.

You can not however say that he is launching an attack by doing that.


BTW do you ever watch commentary in english?

A commentator will never say a rider has gone on the attack if they set a high pace at the front. Never ever. The commentators would never say that Cancellara attacked Chavanel because he never did.

And they wont say "Basso has just attacked Evans".

An attack will only ever be used for when a rider increases his pace suddenly in an attempt to quickly create a gap to others.

And Cancellara therefore never attacked Chavanel (how this discussion started).
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Of course the Commentators would never say that Cancellara attacked Chavanel because Cancellara was not strong enough to put in a decent attack. Duh. You said he didn't want to attack him, I said he couldn't attack him at that point in the race. He was just not fresh enough after his initial attack on Boonen and co. Besides, he did attack in the final 3km, but he couldn't drop Chavanel. If that wasn't an attack than I don't know what is. And I like to describe that as riding everyone off your wheel.

I never said anything about going on the attack and launching an attack either. Just because sport commentators use certain phrases to describe certain events taking place doesn't mean Basso's high pace on the Zoncolan wasn't an attack. Words have multiple meanings. And no, I don't watch English commentary, thank god.
 
El Pistolero said:
And no, I don't watch English commentary, thank god.
Thats all I needed to know.

Ive been arguing all this time with someone who is translating the cycling lingo from their native tongue and then trying to argue about it with me based on these translations.

I wont make the mistake of spending time arguing about this in the future.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Thats all I needed to know.

Ive been arguing all this time with someone who is translating the cycling lingo from their native tongue and then trying to argue about it with me based on these translations.

I wont make the mistake of spending time arguing about this in the future.
Yes, because I already proved you wrong long ago. This started with you saying "riding someone off your wheel is not an attack". It is(or can be).

I can already tell you now that there is no difference between the Dutch werkwoord Aanvallen and the English verb to attack. Besides, I'm raised trilingual.
 
El Pistolero said:
Yes, because I already proved you wrong long ago. This started with you saying "riding someone off your wheel is not an attack". It is.

.
You havent proved anything.

In your world we probably wouldnt even have a word for sprint or take the front, we would call everything attack because all of those things are offensive actions.

Thankfully cycling prefers to have different words for all these very different offensive actions. What Contador does by getting a 50 metre gap in 10 seconds, is very different to what Mosquera did to Purito in Andora, maintaining the same pace for a very long time until Purito could take no more.

In this attempt to "prove" you are right you are sadly ignoring the necessity to differentiate between the 2.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Mosquera went on the attack in Andora.

The difference between a short burst of speed is that commentators immediately know it's an attack while with someone like Basso putting in a high pace for a long period of time they don't immediately know it's an attack as he could just decide to ride on the front to keep the pace lower(that's a defensive action hence it's not an attack). But if Basso goes to the front and rides a high pace with the intention of dropping everyone from his wheel than it's an attack. No matter how cycling commentators describe it. Phil Liggett(or Paul Sherwen) describes winning as a silver medal in the World Championships. You really want to use English commentators as your argument here? Lol...

What Basso did in the Giro is much more deserved to be called attacks than the short bursts of speed by the Schlecks in the mountains of the Tour :rolleyes:
 
El Pistolero said:
Mosquera went on the attack in Andora.
Yes he did.

After he did that he started to set a high pace for a god 5 minute period, and slowly rode first Purito and then Nibali off his wheel.

The difference between a short burst of speed is that commentators immediately know it's an attack while with someone like Basso putting in a high pace for a long period of time they don't immediately know it's an attack.

What Basso did in the Giro is much more deserved to be called attacks than the short bursts of speed by the Schlecks in the mountains of the Tour
I think they do know what Basso is doing because they say that Basso is upping the pace for example.

And when the gap is finally created they wont say that Basso is attacking. They will say that Cadel is falling behind or that he is cracking.

Which is the difference.

An attack is when the rider in front provides the change in speed that causes the gap (starts going faster).
Riding someone off your wheel is when the rider behind provides the change in speed that causes the gap (starts slowing down).
 
Apr 1, 2009
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skidmark said:
Remember how well they 'marked' him in Fleche and Liege? And everything after that?

He's gonna win the Ronde and the Worlds for sure, I threw in KBK and Emilia for good measure.
no one marked him at Liege, the schlecks pratically broke the field, carried him to the finish and formed a lead out train for him. Those 2 suck big time.

Would be class if he won RVV that'd be a big blow to the cobble specialists
 
Apr 1, 2009
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The Hitch said:
Nothings hard to understand for me. Ive made very clear distinctions between what I believe to be dropping someone with a deliberate short burst, often tactically coming from behind (an attack), and dropping someone by setting a constant high pace, putting then into the red.

These 2 actions are very very different.

It is you who act as if they are the same.

You havent offered any distinctions or explenations yourself, just keep talking about how both are the same, and act as if im brilliant with dumb questions (eg whats so hard to understand about that lol).

And you didnt answer my question either (which were the whole point of the post you were responding to :cool:) If a Cadel EVans cracks and falls behind when a high pace is being set up the mountain has he just been attacked by 40 riders?

THis is exactly why people like Timmy call you El Pickle. You dont answer any of the challenges or questions put to you, but rather distort the posts and offer digressions suggesting you haven't really read the posts you are responding to.
All semantics they are both attacking, you can throw a rock or lay siege its still attacking.

How about 'jump' or 'drop'
 
El Pistolero said:
Never his bursts of speed are too short to be called an attack :cool:
Its the other way round;)

Though I remember you said Gilberts CSS attack was the second most devestating youve ever seen. Because he got such a big gap in such a short space of time.

Presumably that means Bassos half an hour pull to get 20m on Evans was therefore the weakest attack youve ever seen? (since for you its a half an hour attack).
 
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