2012 Tirreno -Adriatico, Stage 5:Martinsicuro - Prati di Tivo: 196 km

[BillytheKid]

Actually he would.

I need to get something to eat... bumbling along here.

I like to use "ifs" in forecasting a race. Otherwise it becomes droning whining after a while. If only I had done this or that.....

 

[The Hitch]

Without those 38 seconds advantage they wouldn't let him attack so easily today though. There are 2 points to this sword.

I considered that but even then, he lost 38 yet only gained 23 (while having to tire himself out).

And im not sure if they let someone 38 on the gc go. Thats pretty close and Nibali was pretty strong.

i loved you hitch you were like a brother to me. . . . how can you do such thing

I love Nibali, but hes getting better every season and has plenty of wins in him. Horner meanwhile is doing this at 40. I have tremendous respect for anyone who can do this at 40. I hope he wins all that he can in his final season. What a legend he is.

An inspiration to us all.

By unjustifiable your saying that: TTTs should not be a part bicycle racing. ??
The trouble is, you would not being saying that with any other team in this race or would you?

What other team. Im supporting Horner actually but truth is as impressive as he is, he hasnt earned the time he has on Nibali.

His PV and Cali wins. Those were all him, pure class. This isnt him. Nibali has been the better rider and yet hes still quite a bit back.

Actually he would.

Why thanks pisti

 

[spalco]

Coldeportes was not invited to the Giro.

The hype is not coming from Colombians in this forum. I know o few of the Colombians in this forum but they don't hype their Compatriots as much. The hype come from forumites from other countries. Believe it or not that is the truth.

As far as I'm concerned it's not so much hype as hope. I wish the Colombians did well to mix up the peloton a bit and disturb the predictable tactics we see every year.

 

[Carols]

I think Hitch finds TTT unfair in general. Not because of changing winds.

Ahh that explains it Yes many a GC favorite has been undone by a weak team in a TTT. But that is about balancing your team, still I hate to see it happen to anyone.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

@the hitch: I'm just saying it would have been a different race if Nibali was closer in the GC. So you can't just substract the TTT time and say it's unfair.

 

[will10]

@the hitch: I'm just saying it would have been a different race if Nibali was closer in the GC. So you can't just substract the TTT time and say it's unfair.

Correctus. You can't take out one stage and say look what the GC would look like if there'd been on TTT. Like in 2009 when everyone was saying if Wiggins hadn't missed the 40 second split in the first week of the Tour then he'd have finished on the podium ahead of Armstrong. Completely ignoring the fact that if Wiggins was ahead of Lance on GC on the Ventoux then Lance would've tried harder to take time rather than following the big two.

 

[BillytheKid]

I considered that but even then, he lost 38 yet only gained 23 (while having to tire himself out).

And im not sure if they let someone 38 on the gc go. Thats pretty close and Nibali was pretty strong.



I love Nibali, but hes getting better every season and has plenty of wins in him. Horner meanwhile is doing this at 40. I have tremendous respect for anyone who can do this at 40. I hope he wins all that he can in his final season. What a legend he is.

An inspiration to us al


What other team. Im supporting Horner actually but truth is as impressive as he is, he hasnt earned the time he has on Nibali.

His PV and Cali wins. Those were all him, pure class. This isnt him. Nibali has been the better rider and yet hes still quite a bit back.

Why thanks pisti

Cycling is a team sport, but we do often view as the individual. Horner has given his team, Cancellara, the full credit for putting him in lead. I think you might consider that aspect.

Nibali is a great climber and played it well to win the stage. No doubt, as you say, an inspiration. The best of him yet to come.

 

[Kwibus]

Coldeportes was not invited to the Giro.

The hype is not coming from Colombians in this forum. I know o few of the Colombians in this forum but they don't hype their Compatriots as much. The hype come from forumites from other countries. Believe it or not that is the truth.

Read: The hype comes from Ryo Hazuki.

Most people here hope the Colombians will do well.

 

[The Hitch]

Correctus. You can't take out one stage and say look what the GC would look like if there'd been on TTT. Like in 2009 when everyone was saying if Wiggins hadn't missed the 40 second split in the first week of the Tour then he'd have finished on the podium ahead of Armstrong. Completely ignoring the fact that if Wiggins was ahead of Lance on GC on the Ventoux then Lance would've tried harder to take time rather than following the big two.

Well in this race on the other hand its been pretty simple. 2 and 3 were bunch sprints, 4 was a every man for himself sprint up the climb and 5 was a boring mtf with no real tactics.

The idea that Nibali would lose a second yet alone 38 to horner on any of these stages is ridiculous.

I think its safe to say that without the head-start Horner would be at best level with Nibali.

 

[The Hitch]

Cycling is a team sport, but we do often view as the individual. Horner has given his team, Cancellara, the full credit for putting him in lead. I think you might consider that aspect.

He thanked Cancellara? Oh that changes everything. Now i feel he has truly earned his lead

Nibali is a great climber and played it well to win the stage. No doubt, as you say, an inspiration. The best of him yet to come.

I said Horner was an inspiration.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Well in this race on the other hand its been pretty simple. 2 and 3 were bunch sprints, 4 was a every man for himself sprint up the climb and 5 was a boring mtf with no real tactics.

The idea that Nibali would lose a second yet alone 38 to horner on any of these stages is ridiculous.

I think its safe to say that without the head-start Horner would be at best level with Nibali.

Nibali was clearly the strongest rider today. No way in hell would Horner be level with him.

 

[BillytheKid]

Well in this race on the other hand its been pretty simple. 2 and 3 were bunch sprints, 4 was a every man for himself sprint up the climb and 5 was a boring mtf with no real tactics.

The idea that Nibali would lose a second yet alone 38 to horner on any of these stages is ridiculous.

I think its safe to say that without the head-start Horner would be at best level with Nibali.

Well, I finish up today with this: There are endless hypotheticals. "If" Chris had a some climbing support from his team, he would have a lot more cards to play and Nibali would have might have failed completely. Nibali did not go up the road by a minute and won't beat Horner nor Roman in the ITT.

 

[roundabout]

Why wouldn't Nibali beat them in the TT?

 

[Froome19]

Well in this race on the other hand its been pretty simple. 2 and 3 were bunch sprints, 4 was a every man for himself sprint up the climb and 5 was a boring mtf with no real tactics.

The idea that Nibali would lose a second yet alone 38 to horner on any of these stages is ridiculous.

I think its safe to say that without the head-start Horner would be at best level with Nibali.

Todays stage would have been totally different if Nibali hadnt had to attack and it would have certainly not been the "boring mtf with no real tactics" you were referring to.

 

[The Hitch]

Well, I finish up today with this: There are endless hypotheticals. "If" Chris had a some climbing support from his team, he would have a lot more cards to play and Nibali would have might have failed completely. Nibali did not go up the road by a minute and won't beat Horner nor Roman in the ITT.

No not endless hypotheticals, 1 simple fact. Horners lead has come from a headstart.

 

[will10]

Well in this race on the other hand its been pretty simple. 2 and 3 were bunch sprints, 4 was a every man for himself sprint up the climb and 5 was a boring mtf with no real tactics.

The idea that Nibali would lose a second yet alone 38 to horner on any of these stages is ridiculous.

I think its safe to say that without the head-start Horner would be at best level with Nibali.

You've missed the point completely. If there'd been no TTT, Nibali would've been a lot closer to Horner on GC at the start of the day. Which would have completely changed the dynamic of the stage. Nibali would not have needed to attack so early on the climb, and when he attacked, Horner would not have had buffer on GC to let him go - he would've had to respond, rather than limit his losses.

 

[The Hitch]

You've missed the point completely. If there'd been no TTT, Nibali would've been a lot closer to Horner on GC at the start of the day. Which would have completely changed the dynamic of the stage. Nibali would not have needed to attack so early on the climb, and when he attacked, Horner would not have had buffer on GC to let him go - he would've had to respond, rather than limit his losses.

How have I missed the point. I understand that this would be the situation. I understand that Nibalis attack (had it occured ) would have been met differently. I said as much.

So what do I not understand?

Once again. lets assume (and this is being generous) that they finish together on all stages.

Nibali is on the same time as Horner.

He is NOT 13 seconds down.

And he HASNT had to attack and hurt himself so much.

And if Horner has any sort of lead over Nibali he will have had to exert himself for it.

Any which way you look at it, the situation is a lot brighter for Nibali if he is allowed to start fairly with Horner.

 

[hrotha]

I don't buy the excuses put forth for Coldeportes so far. Being the first Colombian team focusing on Europe is kind of irrelevant when we've had Colombian teams doing well in Europe in the past few years, and their racing schedule was every bit as sketchy as Coldeportes'.

Still, maybe it's just that TA is a level above what they can achieve with those handicaps.

 

[profff]

duarte was deceiving in this race.
this team was built around him
this is not the best columbian teamt

you should not have waited a lot more from the other columbians

too long stages for atapuma, pantano blow himself out at strade bianche, chaves is too young and maybe not good enough.

what is impressive is that they were not able to put a men in the early break of the day in any stage
they have to work a lot

it was a mistake not to be able to make duarte or suarez peaking for one of the most important race they have been invited
they have a lot of work to do to reach the right level

also betancourt was deceiving, but he is always like that at the beginning of the season.

as columbian supporter we can just be happy with the good shape showed by uran at paris nice and wait for quintana ( already a win for him ) and wait for henao

 

[Fatclimber]

'Tis still a little early for Horner (not much tho), he will soon again be one of the top 3 climbers in the world. Well, top 2 now.

 

[Carols]

'tis still a little early for horner (not much tho), he will soon again be one of the top 3 climbers in the world. Well, top 2 now.

rotfl!!!!!

 

[skidmark]

Any which way you look at it, the situation is a lot brighter for Nibali if he is allowed to start fairly with Horner.

Well, he has started fairly with Horner, from my thinking. The race was designed with several stages, and they all completed them fairly, and he's down on time to Horner. So I don't really see the point of this argument, or how you can know that Liquigas would go exactly 38 seconds faster than they did in the TTT if the wind was different, or anything beyond that. The race is what it is, and even if you think you're only stating one fact, it does open the door to endless hypotheticals. You're going to tire yourself out spending this energy and have a disadvantage on the other debaters next stage

 

[thegrimpeur]

Great win for Nibali, you gotta love it when a guy goes all out and gets it, much like Liuwe Westra on Mende. The final stage should be great, as I'd say the top three match up pretty well a flat 10 k TT.

I also find it quite weird that people refer to this as a boring MTF: Attacks all the way up the hill, a winning attack from a major contender from 3 k out and GC ramifications, setting up a possibly great final TT is what I'd call pretty good.
I think a lot of people see a MTF and think of walls like Chieti and Mende, when the dynamics is quite different... We've seen time and time again that if you want real fireworks, you work in a hard stage with a short, steep wall to the finish, or most desirable a mountain stage that ends right after a decent. Thats when you get real racing, as those who suck downhill has to attack to gain a buffer, while those who are good descenders also wants to attack, as a 10 sec gap on the top can turn into a 1 minute gap in the bottom.

 

[The Hitch]

Question about A and S. Cq says Di Luca was 15th at 1.15 and Garzelli 9 minutes down.

But during the race everyone was saying that Di Luca was dropped very earyly and Garzelli was the one dropped at the end.

So which way was it? Cq have it wrong and it was Garzelli who finished higher?

Well, he has started fairly with Horner, from my thinking. The race was designed with several stages, and they all completed them fairly, and he's down on time to Horner. So I don't really see the point of this argument, or how you can know that Liquigas would go exactly 38 seconds faster than they did in the TTT if the wind was different, or anything beyond that. )

I dont care about the wind.

Its all about the ttt. horners advantage has nothing to do with his own abilities the time was won by the team, so i think it has no place in an INDIVIDUAl classiment.

The individual bit started on stage 2, and the fact that horner already had a 38 second lead BEFORE the individual bit began is a head-start, nothing more nothing less.

 

[roundabout]

official results have di luca at 1.15