2012 Tour de France: Stage 16: Pau → Bagnères-de-Luchon, 197 km

[la.margna]

Il giorno dello squalo. Last chance for Nibali. Vai, vai, Vincenzo, vola!

 

[Kwibus]

Sure, the boards are a free forum to discuss cycling. But, there's an assumption that this forum and others serve to add to the community we have; new information is shared, ideas are developed and redeveloped, whatever.

Even if we boil down two camps into blind optimists and blind pessimists (Binaries are never accurate, and I know enough to know that most are not 'blind', but well informed and judicious optimists or pessimists) its still very easy to choose who can add more to the community.

I've been critical of posts and attitudes that are destructive. It is as simple as 'don't read the posts' in some cases, but not in others. I haven't opened the tour de bore thread because I don't see any value for my own participation as a fan. Those comments have merit, for sure. The discussion needs to be be had, yes. I'm just not interested, and it is easy to avoid. But, a stage thread intended to discuss a stage is a different story.

I'm interested in the perspectives, insights, and analysis that come out of these threads. They change the way I watch the stage. But sarcastic comments, and negative comments detract from that (not to say that critical comments don't belong). For me, its about what has additive value to this community.

Thats the idealist answer. These are the internets. But, its obviously frustrating when a negative meme (lack of a better word) takes away from any experience.



I assumed that the rest of my post was that logical justification. I see potential in the stage, and it was clearly stated why. Also, there's a difference between being critical and being destructive. Some posters demonstrate that line better than others

I'm always happy when someone posts what I want to post, but can't explain it as well as this poster did.
Well done.

I'm curious what will happen tomorrow, but I'm afraid that the final 2 climbs just ain't tough enough for a big selection or Wiggins to crack.
I also doubt that the GC contenders will attack before the final climb, because so far it's proven to be rather useless and there is too much flat inbetween the climbs.
If the stage is raced hard then fatigue can play a big role on final climb. The only team that is capable of doing so is Sky though, which doesn't bode well.
What we can hope is that Basso and Szmyd feel good and decide to ride up the Tourmalet like madmen to hurt the legs.

 

[Kwibus]

this must also have been the last race Rodolfo Massi ever won, so I think this is a kind of clinic related subject...

1998 is clinic related. Only makes me more curious how much time they need to reach the finish in 2012.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Sure, the boards are a free forum to discuss cycling. But, there's an assumption that this forum and others serve to add to the community we have; new information is shared, ideas are developed and redeveloped, whatever.

Even if we boil down two camps into blind optimists and blind pessimists (Binaries are never accurate, and I know enough to know that most are not 'blind', but well informed and judicious optimists or pessimists) its still very easy to choose who can add more to the community.

I've been critical of posts and attitudes that are destructive. It is as simple as 'don't read the posts' in some cases, but not in others. I haven't opened the tour de bore thread because I don't see any value for my own participation as a fan. Those comments have merit, for sure. The discussion needs to be be had, yes. I'm just not interested, and it is easy to avoid. But, a stage thread intended to discuss a stage is a different story.

I'm interested in the perspectives, insights, and analysis that come out of these threads. They change the way I watch the stage. But sarcastic comments, and negative comments detract from that (not to say that critical comments don't belong). For me, its about what has additive value to this community.

Thats the idealist answer. These are the internets. But, its obviously frustrating when a negative meme (lack of a better word) takes away from any experience.



I assumed that the rest of my post was that logical justification. I see potential in the stage, and it was clearly stated why. Also, there's a difference between being critical and being destructive. Some posters demonstrate that line better than others

Great post that is.

 

[Eshnar]

I assumed that the rest of my post was that logical justification. I see potential in the stage, and it was clearly stated why. Also, there's a difference between being critical and being destructive. Some posters demonstrate that line better than others

Yes, you wrote that. I used your comment but my aim wasn't specifically you, but those users that regularly post the "If you don't like it don't watch it etc." line, which is, imho, even less constructive than the "Tour De Bore" lines. It is way more constructive to raise a discussion than to shut it up.
That said, my point was this stage is really bad designed. You say it has potential, but this is slightly different from what I said. You say it could be good as it is, I was saying it would be WAY better modify it. We're not contradicting each other, actually.

 

[FellOff]

Sure, the boards are a free forum to discuss cycling. But, there's an assumption that this forum and others serve to add to the community we have; new information is shared, ideas are developed and redeveloped, whatever.

Even if we boil down two camps into blind optimists and blind pessimists (Binaries are never accurate, and I know enough to know that most are not 'blind', but well informed and judicious optimists or pessimists) its still very easy to choose who can add more to the community.

I've been critical of posts and attitudes that are destructive. It is as simple as 'don't read the posts' in some cases, but not in others. I haven't opened the tour de bore thread because I don't see any value for my own participation as a fan. Those comments have merit, for sure. The discussion needs to be be had, yes. I'm just not interested, and it is easy to avoid. But, a stage thread intended to discuss a stage is a different story.

I'm interested in the perspectives, insights, and analysis that come out of these threads. They change the way I watch the stage. But sarcastic comments, and negative comments detract from that (not to say that critical comments don't belong). For me, its about what has additive value to this community.

Thats the idealist answer. These are the internets. But, its obviously frustrating when a negative meme (lack of a better word) takes away from any experience.



I assumed that the rest of my post was that logical justification. I see potential in the stage, and it was clearly stated why. Also, there's a difference between being critical and being destructive. Some posters demonstrate that line better than others

Saying "Tour de bore", is neither sarcastic nor destructive. It is a highly original and amusing coinage. Now that's sarcasm.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

A few people on this forum saying this tour is boring and will no longer be watching it for clinic related reasons. Seems like a shame to me as I am really looking forward to these next few stages.
And for the record I have quite enjoyed this tour. Too many absentees due to injury and bovine related matters but pretty good otherwise.

 

[ericthesportsman6]

That said, my point was this stage is really bad designed.

I don't mind criticism like this. I fully support criticizing riders, tactics, course design, etc, as long as it leads to some more positive and constructive discussion. But when I open a stage thread and the entire first page is filled with cynical remarks and bad jokes about how awful the stage is going to be, then I feel things have gone too far. And you're right about; "if you don't like don't watch," but sometimes you feel the need to fight fire with fire.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

I don't mind criticism like this. I fully support criticizing riders, tactics, course design, etc, as long as it leads to some more positive and constructive discussion. But when I open a stage thread and the entire first page is filled with cynical remarks and bad jokes about how awful the stage is going to be, then I feel things have gone too far. And you're right about; "if you don't like don't watch," but sometimes you feel the need to fight fire with fire.

Those cynical remarks and bad jokes will probably be a lot closer to how this stage is going to be than the optimistic remarks that followed them. People have the full right to voice their predictions, even if those are negative. Those comments are born from watching the previous Tours. By now we know how a Tour stage will go. Last year had 2 exceptions, but those are about the only exceptions.

So I predict nothing happening until the last climb. I heard the descent isn't that technical and judging from the group that finished together last time it indeed isn't. So even if Nibali wants to try, he won't get any gaps. A group of 12 people (of with 3 Sky and 4 RadioShack) will arrive together. The daily break will win the stage.

 

[phanatic]

A group of 12 people (of with 3 Sky and 4 RadioShack) will arrive together.

Horner seemed pretty critical of Sky after the last stage, complaining that he and his teammates were not being allowed in breaks, despite their real time deficits - I assume taking the ITT into consideration - being quite large. It may have been a pitch for possible alliances, or just Horner real talking as usual -- sort of, 'speak what we feel not what we ought to say.'

 

[Mellow Velo]

Horner seemed pretty critical of Sky after the last stage, complaining that he and his teammates were not being allowed in breaks, despite their real time deficits - I assume taking the ITT into consideration - being quite large. It may have been a pitch for possible alliances, or just Horner real talking as usual -- sort of, 'speak what we feel not what we ought to say.'

RSNT rider's can't complain.
Remember how they sat on poor old Caisse riders trying to get into breaks?
Very competitive, this team award.

 

[barmaher]

Bore de France sounds a lot snappier.

Anyway, back to business.

This has the potential to be a very interesting stage. In spite of all the naysaying, the racing so far has produced serious time gaps on a number of stages. At the equivalent stage in last year's Tour...say after the stage to Pinerolo, 1st to 3rd were separated by 1'22", 1st to 5th by 2'59" and 1st to 10th by 7'36".

This course has been far more selective than prvious Tour's for whatever reason. People have complained about the Tour organisers wishing to keep the suspense for too long. Now we have a selective first 10 days, and the Tour is as good as over. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[barmaher]

And I think that the break could take it.

Scarponi showed he is in okay nick in the Vosges, so I think he is a decent poke for the stage win. Other than that, I think JJ Cobo is either storing himself up for a big tilt this week or completely off colour. I don't know which.

 

[Dedelou]

1998 is clinic related. Only makes me more curious how much time they need to reach the finish in 2012.

Clinic issues notwithstanding you have add to that fact although the stages seem to go over the same mountains, the routes are not the same every times and the distances varied between the years.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

This course has been far more selective than prvious Tour's for whatever reason. People have complained about the Tour organisers wishing to keep the suspense for too long. Now we have a selective first 10 days, and the Tour is as good as over. Be careful what you wish for.

There wasn't an ITT in the first part of the Tour last year. Take that away and the gaps are similar.

 

[Eshnar]

At the equivalent stage in last year's Tour...say after the stage to Pinerolo, 1st to 3rd were separated by 1'22", 1st to 5th by 2'59" and 1st to 10th by 7'36".

This year had a 40+ kms ITT.
edit: LOL someone posted it before me.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

Well, atleast I think the KOTM comp, looks good enough atm, but thats also the only exiting thing so far.

 

[Kwibus]

Clinic issues notwithstanding you have add to that fact although the stages seem to go over the same mountains, the routes are not the same every times and the distances varied between the years.

I haven't checked at it in detail, but as far as I can see the route is exactly the same. Not many alternatives.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, atleast I think the KOTM comp, looks good enough atm, but thats also the only exiting thing so far.

I have to agree, for the most part. This Tour has reminded me of some of Mig's Tour wins.

One has to wonder, looking at today and tomorrow's stages, what if AC and AS were here?

 

[Pippo_San]

What's worse is that it won't even rain. It'll be ****IN SUNNY ALL DAY FFS!!!

 

[Dr.Sahl]

I have to agree, for the most part. This Tour has reminded me of some of Mig's Tour wins.

One has to wonder, looking at today and tomorrow's stages, what if AC and AS were here?

It would surely have sparked the tour up abit, but the rute is still bad im0.

What's worse is that it won't even rain. It'll be ****IN SUNNY ALL DAY FFS!!!

Well, some people might get affected by the heat, but ye... rain would be more exiting.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Well, some people might get affected by the heat, but ye... rain would be more exiting.

As far as I recall Nibali doesn't mind the heat, whereas Bradley may suffer a bit.

 

[Frosty]

I have to agree, for the most part. This Tour has reminded me of some of Mig's Tour wins.

One has to wonder, looking at today and tomorrow's stages, what if AC and AS were here?

AC wins, AS has to go on the attack to try and get some time to take back on Wiggins/ Froome before the final TT. The effect of AS and AC on the Wiggins/Froome dilemma could be interesting though.

Im feeling quite pessimistic about tomorrow's stage. With the later climbs not being that bad i can see a lot of people opting to save their legs until Thursday and just hop aboard the Skytrain tomorrow and see if anyone else can be bothered. Hope i'm wrong and that Szmyd and Basso make an appearance on the Tourmalet and try to isolate Wiggins and Froome.

Further down, Rolland will hopefully look to attack

6 Haimar Zubeldia Agirre (Spa) RadioShack-Nissan 0:06:15
7 Tejay Van Garderen (USA) BMC Racing Team 0:06:57
8 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Astana Pro Team 0:07:30
9 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Team Europcar 0:08:31
10 Thibaut Pinot (Fra) FDJ-Big Mat 0:08:51
11 Andreas Klöden (Ger) RadioShack-Nissan 0:09:29

He needs time on all three above him, and Kloden below him, before the last TT, probably more than he could gain on the last mountain stage.

VDB needs time on both Evans and Nibali before the last TT to have a hope of the podium, he might need two day's worth of time gaps to do that though.

3 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:02:23
4 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:03:19
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Lotto Belisol Team 0:04:48

Hopefully these sort of attacks will encourage Evans and Nibali to counter them and put Wiggins and/or Froome in trouble.

 

[Gloin22]

As far as I recall Nibali doesn't mind the heat, whereas Bradley may suffer a bit.

He experienced the heat at Vuelta already and he trains at Tenerife Very hot climate there so he should be okay, same with Froome.

Wiggins would rather have heat than rain with the descents.

 

[Angliru]

A few people on this forum saying this tour is boring and will no longer be watching it for clinic related reasons. Seems like a shame to me as I am really looking forward to these next few stages.
And for the record I have quite enjoyed this tour. Too many absentees due to injury and bovine related matters but pretty good otherwise.

Well should we be surprised considering your avatar? If your avatar is any indication, each stage ticking by gets Wiggins closer to overall victory. You're likely giddy with anticipation.

Often times the level of enjoyment/entertainment that someone derives from an event is strongly dependent upon how the team(s)/rider(s)/player(s) that they're rooting for is doing or even if they are participating at all. In terms of the gc battle, this Tour for me has been much less than satisfying. Nibali and JVdB have tried to make it interesting and Evans put in his little digs but ultimately this was pretty much decided after the first ITT. Unless Froome decides to stop pulling for Wiggins, put him in the wind and then attack him, I don't see anything occurring in the remaining stages that will alter the gc as it is now. Wiggins and Sky are in too commanding of a position. Nevertheless I will be watching the remaining mountain stages just to see how some of the other riders do especially Pinot and Van Garderan.