2012 Tour of California May 16 stage 4: Sonora - Clovis 209.6 km

[Fetisoff]

Even if he is wrong you should at least make an effort instead of ignoring your own arguments

Huh? Did you see his post before mine?
My argument is simple - Giro has more climbing and higher average.

Tour de Picardie and Malasya have smaller fields and yet still higher average.

Also, another argument is most of the chasing in toc is done by one man - Timmy Duggan, whereas in Giro it's 3-4 teams sending at least 2-3 guys most stages.

 

[roundabout]

Picardie is flatsville. No point in using it as an example.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Speed average depends on "break-of-the-day" group composition. It's quite a difference to chase these guys:

Olivier Kaisen (Lotto Belisol), Adrian Saez (Euskaltel), Simone Ponzi (Astana), Stefan Denifl (Vacansoleil-DCM), Manuele Boaro (Saxo Bank) and Mickaël Delage (FDJ-BigMat).

and these

Sébastian Salas (Team Optum presented by Kelly Benefit Strategies), Jonathan Patrick McCarty (Spidertech Powered By C10), Jeremy Vennell (Bissell Cycling), Wilson Alexander Marentes Torres (Colombia-Coldeportes)

 

[Fetisoff]

Speed average depends on "break-of-the-day" group composition. It's quite a difference to chase these guys:

Olivier Kaisen (Lotto Belisol), Adrian Saez (Euskaltel), Simone Ponzi (Astana), Stefan Denifl (Vacansoleil-DCM), Manuele Boaro (Saxo Bank) and Mickaël Delage (FDJ-BigMat).

and these

Sébastian Salas (Team Optum presented by Kelly Benefit Strategies), Jonathan Patrick McCarty (Spidertech Powered By C10), Jeremy Vennell (Bissell Cycling), Wilson Alexander Marentes Torres (Colombia-Coldeportes)

So this supports "Cali is ridden harder than Giro" exactly how?

 

[djlovesyou]

The only bit of yesterday's stage was ridden hard was when Roche and Duerte attacked up that hill and Nibali had to work to make sure they didn't get too much of a lead.

Most of the day was, as has been said before, Duggan riding at the front pulling an 11 minute lead back to nothing in about 7km (disclaimer: exaggeration).

One thing the ATOC does have is stage profiles that look alpine but are infact flatter than the average Giro flat stage. At first glance they look tough until you realise those huge peaks are actually 5km at an average of 5%.

 

[Bavarianrider]

So, by the way, you're off to a new excuse now, since your first one obviously failed. Well, Tour de Picardie was much higher average then ToC for every stage (40+ for 2 of them) with a smaller field. Even the friggin' tour of Malasya with just over 80 people finishing each stage was higher average speeds ffs

So you seriously want to suggest that this,

has more altitude meters than this?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

However, the ToC profiles are hugely overdone and use a wrong X/Y scale

The Giro profiles are underrated, they are actually thougher if you compare the climbs.

But that doesn't go into your brain BR, because you can't fit it in

 

[Fetisoff]

So you seriously want to suggest that this,

Probably about the same, maybe a little less. Raced 4 km/h or so faster though.


This, however

Was 25% longer, at least twice(probably more) the amount of climbing, and still raced the same speed as this

 

[Don Johnson]

You have exact numbers? Giro stage was up and down all day, while the toc stages look mostly flat with a couple of cat-3 like climbs in each one.

Could also look at stage 8 Giro vs stage 2 toc. Both were raced around 37.5 average[/QUOTE

Typically it is important to factor in environmental conditions, strength of field, stages ahead, before passing judgements on speed.

Personally I know stage 2 was a hard one. Also, even if the top guns had blown the race apart, what would be the tactical advantage, or how would that have made the ToC look?

I know for a fact Rabo is trying hard for victory. I think the ToC riders are racing their hearts out(Excepting Levi who is recovering.)

 

[Bavarianrider]

You have exact numbers? Giro stage was up and down all day, while the toc stages look mostly flat with a couple of cat-3 like climbs in each one.

Could also look at stage 8 Giro vs stage 2 toc. Both were raced around 37.5 average[/QUOTE

Typically it is important to factor in environmental conditions, strength of field, stages ahead, before passing judgements on speed.

Personally I know stage 2 was a hard one. Also, even if the top guns had blown the race apart, what would be the tactical advantage, or how would that have made the ToC look?

I know for a fact Rabo is trying hard for victory. I think the ToC riders are racing their hearts out(Excepting Levi who is recovering.)

Finally a man with common sense

 

[Bavarianrider]

Probably about the same, maybe a little less. Raced 4 km/h or so faster though.


This, however

Was 25% longer, at least twice(probably more) the amount of climbing, and still raced the same speed as this

Giro much bigger field =higher speed.

 

[Fetisoff]

Typically it is important to factor in environmental conditions, strength of field, stages ahead, before passing judgements on speed.

Personally I know stage 2 was a hard one. Also, even if the top guns had blown the race apart, what would be the tactical advantage, or how would that have made the ToC look?

I know for a fact Rabo is trying hard for victory. I think the ToC riders are racing their hearts out(Excepting Levi who is recovering.)

Hmm, doesn't say much about the field, and the condition of the top riders, if recovering Levi can hang on with the other GC men who are "racing their hearts out", and everyone tries hard for a win, but can't get away from peloton headed by Timmy Duggan on his own for 40 km

 

[Ferminal]

Who cares how fast a race is when you're comparing PT and HC? Tour of Turkey might not be rapid, but it's bloody exciting. Stages might be designed to produce such results, or the composition of the field may lean to a certain style of racing. In the case of unselective stages and a peloton geared towards conservative outcomes, it's not the most fun for the viewer.

 

[Fetisoff]

Giro much bigger field =higher speed.

 

[Bavarianrider]

[/QUOT

A fact is a fact. Regardless of your poor attempt to be funny.

 

[Fetisoff]

A fact is a fact. Regardless of your poor attempt to be funny.

You and "Don Johnson" - the same person? Both of you are unable to properly quote a post

I'm beginning to think both of you are El Pisti's sockpuppets

 

[Ferminal]

I think we can all settle down now, race must be starting soon in any case.

 

[Don Johnson]

You and "Don Johnson" - the same person? Both of you are unable to properly quote a post

I'm beginning to think both of you are El Pisti's sockpuppets

I don't compare the ToC to the Giro, there is no comparison.

Every race is unique. For instance myself, if these mega Gts were shorter, I think, they would be more interesting.

That doesn't mean the Giro, TdF or Vuelta should be shorter.(Well maybe the Vuelta.)

We just need to let the newer races like California grow.

Realistically a GT in California, or in the USA wouldn't sell to the American sports fans, unless it was timed perfectly during the sporting year. That would not coincide with the European cycling schedule.

Heck, even the experienced European organizers don't get the timing of the Vuelta and Worlds' right to get proper fields peaking at the right time!
Right there, by timing races wrong, the organizers encourage doping, for riders to peak at the odd time in their training schedule.

 

[jens_attacks]

utter crrap until now cali(of course besides the views which are awesome...and the tarmac lol).
we won't see any action i'm afraid barring the last 8 kms of mt baldy.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

BR theories are genius, like steeper stuff suits big riders more etc

 

[Lance Armstrong]

So this supports "Cali is ridden harder than Giro" exactly how?

It explains why is Giro ridden harder than Cali. There is no reason to chase hard 4 guys from american continental teams. Everybody knows they're going nowhere.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Stage one and two were excellent.
Yesterday was abit boring due to the wind on the last climb.
Every stage was ridden harder then any Giro stage so far.
In the Giro it's only fast the last 10km.

Yes, indeed.
This race has been incredible fast. (probably due to that superior tarmac)
So fast, in fact, that because it is light years ahead, it appears that
they are always way SLOWER than the SLOWEST schedule.
TV schedules are meaningless, as the race has overrun them by half an hour,
these past two night.

Fact is: As soon as Peloton "A" turns up the speed, Peloton "B" (the US conti teams and Marcel "where's my sunbed?" Kittel) go straight out the back door.

 

[Fetisoff]

Stage one and two were excellent.
Yesterday was abit boring due to the wind on the last climb.
Every stage was ridden harder then any Giro stage so far.
In the Giro it's only fast the last 10km.

It explains why is Giro ridden harder than Cali. There is no reason to chase hard 4 guys from american continental teams. Everybody knows they're going nowhere.

I was arguing the part in bold. I was never arguing the reasons for it.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't know why you're bothering arguing with BR. He has an undying love for the Tour of Cali, it could be the dullest week's racing and he would still proclaim it the 2nd biggest race in the world.

Sounds like Bavarian rider is on the cycling news editor team.

 

[Don Johnson]

It explains why is Giro ridden harder than Cali. There is no reason to chase hard 4 guys from american continental teams. Everybody knows they're going nowhere.

For the riders who have the courage to ride at the front, or in the breakaway, or even compete in the Tour of California, who have devoted this part of their lives, to compete in an international competition, at this level. in the race which might or might not be the pinnacle of their careers, I salute you.

I salute all the athletes in all sports, who compete with their hearts, and acknowledge and try to support their sponsors.