2013 Cleanest Peloton Ever

[Dr. Maserati]

I see you are staying classy. Another personal attack followed by a fallacious appeal to widespread belief. There is no independent proof cycling is getting cleaner except your earlier fallacious appeal to authority. There's less oxygen vector doping as various power metrics suggest, but that's not the same thing as a dope-free(er) peloton.




It invalidates the premise of the game. The list in my first post shows most of the long time team management that embraced oxygen vector doping are still around and most likely pushing the leading edge of doping technology.

What exact "independent proof" are you seeking?

And no-one said anything about dope free - there will never be a dope free sport.
But if "various power metric's" suggest that there is less oxygen vector doping, it does mean there is less doping.

 

[DirtyWorks]

But if "various power metric's" suggest that there is less oxygen vector doping, it does mean there is less doping.

I would argue the oxygen vector doping has lessened, but based on the management list at the top of the thread, actors in the sport are very likely seeking another edge. Less power does not mean less risk from uncontrolled human experimentation. (AKA doping)

Based on the brief history for each team manager, most of the power players in the sport do not inspire confidence the game is being played fairly.

 

[puffin]

I think todays TTT is the fastest ever (57.8 kph). Previously it was 57.3 kph by team discovery channel (according to wikipedia) in 2005.

That said the 2005 was much further (67.5km compared to 25km).

 

[pmcg76]

I think todays TTT is the fastest ever (57.8 kph). Previously it was 57.3 kph by team discovery channel (according to wikipedia) in 2005.

That said the 2005 was much further (67.5km compared to 25km).

Think you explained the insignificance of your own point in that one.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I would argue the oxygen vector doping has lessened, but based on the management list at the top of the thread, actors in the sport are very likely seeking another edge. Less power does not mean less risk from uncontrolled human experimentation. (AKA doping)

Based on the brief history for each team manager, most of the power players in the sport do not inspire confidence the game is being played fairly.

Firstly - why did you snip out the question? Here it is again "What exact "independent proof" are you seeking?"

The rest is all over the place.
2 separate issues - the point is about "oxygen vector doping", you have just said that in your opinion it is less. Good.

The rest about other people is completely separate.

 

[The Hitch]

Its still significant though. the Tour ttts from the Armstrong era may have been long but there have been plenty of short ttts in recent years.

The Giro ttt has been 25km (todays distance) or shorter every year since 2007 apart from 2010 which was a few k longer. And that includes the mega doped 2007 2008 and 2009 giros of course, all of which were strong contenders for the most doped gt of all time prize.

The Vuelta since 2006 has had 5 ttts, all of them 16km or less. In the Armstrong (Heras) era the Vuelta had 3 team time trials, all of them similar lengh to today (24, 28 and 28km respectively)

Also most of those ttts were stage 1 and didnt come after 3 days of racing, a transfer and half the peloton nursing injuries.

Like most team time trials today was a circuit that finished where it started so it cant be explained by wind.

There are other variables to consider like how technical the circuit is, and it would be difficult to make direct comparisons between this and any other specific ttt.
But when you have a sample size of 6 ttts from the giro 8 ttts from the Vuelta, and 1 from the Tour, of this length or shorter from the last decade, and this is by far the fastest one, it does seem to at least offer a peripheral challenge the narrative that things are getting slower.

Even if we assume 2011 Tour was clean, 2011 and 2012 vueltas were clean and 2013 and 2012 giros were clean, this is still faster (and quite a bit) than all 10 ttts of this distance or less from the "doped era". (that cq has recorded since it formed anyway)

Edit: though after checking out the other ttts for myself i find that today actually was not the fastest ttt in history. The 2011 Giro ttt was faster by quite a bit - about 4km/h. All others in the above list however were slower.

Edit2: thanks to cyievel for pointing out that cq had the distance for the ttt that I thought was faster (2011), wrong. It was actually 19.3km not 21.5 and therefore the time of 20.59, nowhere near as outrageous as it first seemed (61.47km/h.)

 

[Benotti69]

Its still significant though. the Tour ttts from the Armstrong era may have been long but there have been plenty of short ttts in recent years.

The Giro ttt has been 25km (todays distance) or shorter every year since 2007 apart from 2010 which was a few k longer. And that includes the mega doped 2007 2008 and 2009 giros of course, all of which were strong contenders for the most doped gt of all time prize.

The Vuelta since 2006 has had 5 ttts, all of them 16km or less. In the Armstrong (Heras) era the Vuelta had 3 team time trials, all of them similar lengh to today (24, 28 and 28km respectively)

Also most of those ttts were stage 1 and didnt come after 3 days of racing, a transfer and half the peloton nursing injuries.

Like most team time trials today was a circuit that finished where it started so it cant be explained by wind.

There are other variables to consider like how technical the circuit is, and it would be difficult to make direct comparisons between this and any other specific ttt.
But when you have a sample size of 6 ttts from the giro 8 ttts from the Vuelta, and 1 from the Tour, of this length or shorter from the last decade, and this is by far the fastest one, it does seem to at least offer a peripheral challenge the narrative that things are getting slower.

Even if we assume 2011 Tour was clean, 2011 and 2012 vueltas were clean and 2013 and 2012 giros were clean, this is still faster (and quite a bit) than all 10 ttts of this distance or less from the "doped era". (that cq has recorded since it formed anyway)

ouch.........wonder will someone tell Walsh.

 

[the sceptic]

It would be interesting to see a graph of average speeds in flat TTTs and ITTs in grand tours in the last 15 years.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Firstly - why did you snip out the question? Here it is again "What exact "independent proof" are you seeking?"

Best case scenario rider's profiles. There are compromises that could be made for whatever reasons, but the basic idea being getting the test data out to the public.

2 separate issues - the point is about "oxygen vector doping", you have just said that in your opinion it is less. Good.
.

Less power doesn't mean there's less doping. Just that the types of performance enhancement experiments have changed. Does that help clear it up?

 

[BigBoat]

But when you have a sample size of 6 ttts from the giro 8 ttts from the Vuelta, and 1 from the Tour, of this length or shorter from the last decade, and this is by far the fastest one, it does seem to at least offer a peripheral challenge the narrative that things are getting slower.

Even if we assume 2011 Tour was clean, 2011 and 2012 vueltas were clean and 2013 and 2012 giros were clean, this is still faster than all 10 ttts of this distance or less from the "doped era".

Today watching I just couldn't rap my head around 36.6 mph for the average on a loop course. When I looked at the profile I noticed it lost 26 feet in elevation but the slight downhill would have been offset by the slight hill!

On Analytical cycling using the lowest typical drag I get 596 watts going a steady 36.6 mph, and 415 watts or so in the draft at the back of the pack. for a 72 kg rider I imagine the normalized power would have to meet somewhere around 500 watts.

If we drop down the air density abit you can do it with less, but the 600 watts while dragging the group is typical of what we've seen on past TDF TTT's from past years.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Best case scenario rider's profiles. There are compromises that could be made for whatever reasons, but the basic idea being getting the test data out to the public.

It would depend very much on who gets the info and how it is interpreted - most ordinary people struggle to use their Strava correctly, let alone scientific data.

Less power doesn't mean there's less doping. Just that the types of performance enhancement experiments have changed. Does that help clear it up?

Not really.
Surely the idea is to have anti-doping reach a level where the risks outweigh the gains - which appears to be what you are suggesting here.
What is wrong with that?

 

[The Hitch]

As i put in the edit to my previous comment todays ttt actually was not the fastest. The 2011 giro ttt was 61.47km/h

 

[The Hitch]

It would be interesting to see a graph of average speeds in flat TTTs and ITTs in grand tours in the last 15 years.

Dont think it could accomplish much because ttts just differ too much and the variables – distance,field quality, wind, number of turns, etc play too big a role.

When you have a sample of 15 of comparable distance that evens it out a little bit, and you can read a little into which ttts were the fastest, but a graph showing progression would carry little weight, especially since not all gts even have ttts.

 

[BigBoat]

Well we wont know about the actual performance until we get to the long climbs, and compare that climb where Ullrich attacked in 2003 to this year's time.

But certainly that TTT was just crazy fast. It could have been that the teams were being assisted slightly by the camera bikes. I noticed one bike only riding 1.5 secs ahead of a team.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well we wont know about the actual performance until we get to the long climbs, and compare that climb where Ullrich attacked in 2003 to this year's time.

But certainly that TTT was just crazy fast. It could have been that the teams were being assisted slightly by the camera bikes. I noticed one bike only riding 1.5 secs ahead of a team.

~25 meters.

 

[42x16ss]

Well we wont know about the actual performance until we get to the long climbs, and compare that climb where Ullrich attacked in 2003 to this year's time.

But certainly that TTT was just crazy fast. It could have been that the teams were being assisted slightly by the camera bikes. I noticed one bike only riding 1.5 secs ahead of a team.

The other thing is that this was a very fast course. Only about a dozen turns, none sharper than 90 degrees, great road surface (unlike the Vuelta TTT's in Pamplona for example), beautiful conditions and that long, long stretch on the Promenade all helped with fast times.

Everyone was going to pull great times today

 

[the sceptic]

Dont think it could accomplish much because ttts just differ too much and the variables – distance,field quality, wind, number of turns, etc play too big a role.

When you have a sample of 15 of comparable distance that evens it out a little bit, and you can read a little into which ttts were the fastest, but a graph showing progression would carry little weight, especially since not all gts even have ttts.

What about just doing the final ITT of the tour. Less variables there right since its always at the same time and roughly the same length and usually flat. Or maybe the worlds ITT?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Just as I was about to start buying team jerseys again...

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...shows-his-top-gun-ability-20130628-2p2n9.html

Sh!t on a stick...

 

[Krebs cycle]

Because the tree of ridiculous performances put in by Bradley Wiggins from Jan to Aug 2012 far outweighs any forest of an entire peloton slowing down.

Brad is now replaced by Froome, and to a lesser extent Porte.

Yes I suspected this is what it is all about for you, but thank you for confirming it. You are so desperate for the entire peloton to be doping to the same extent as 5-10yrs ago just so you can feel justified in your doping accusations of Wiggins, Froome and Team Sky.

So much for wanting cycling to be cleaner. You actually want it to be dirty because the only thing that gets you up in the morning is coming in here and having a cry about team sky.

Get.A.Life

 

[Krebs cycle]

The biggest issue presently is removing anti-doping from the hands of the UCI. That is on the cards and if it happens has the potential to do more than any single advance in the last 10 years, including the Bio Passport.

This..............

+2...................

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

expert analysis: Froome

anyone out there read French

n

happen to have uh copy uv Velo

(French)

current issue

n

kin confirm

that froome states that

he ***** slaps

dope gahd rominger’s

old Madone record

going sub 31

pushing 440-460 watts

~6.5 w/kg

?

much obliged

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/54494562669/expert-analysis-froome

@veloclinic 6.47 W/kg - 6.76 W/kg for 30 minutes. Sounds good.

@neviscycles @veloclinic 440 W / 68 kg = 6.47 W/kg. 460 W / 68 kg = 6.76 W/kg.

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/352311280507432960

Wonderdawg weighed 67 kg at last years Tour according to Michelle Cound.

 

[42x16ss]

Just as I was about to start buying team jerseys again...

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...shows-his-top-gun-ability-20130628-2p2n9.html

Sh!t on a stick...

The Australian media gushes so much over every good performance it makes me nauseous...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes I suspected this is what it is all about for you, but thank you for confirming it. You are so desperate for the entire peloton to be doping to the same extent as 5-10yrs ago just so you can feel justified in your doping accusations of Wiggins, Froome and Team Sky.

So much for wanting cycling to be cleaner. You actually want it to be dirty because the only thing that gets you up in the morning is coming in here and having a cry about team sky.

Ah yes "individual performances are too ridiculous to give everyone a hall pass"
==
"you are desperate for the peloton to be doping like they were 5-10 years ago".

Another quality analysis from the PhD student with 10 years "experience" in the AIS and SIS.

Replete with personal attack.

Chapeau.

Get.A.Life

Oh the irony.

 

[Galic Ho]

But certainly that TTT was just crazy fast. It could have been that the teams were being assisted slightly by the camera bikes. I noticed one bike only riding 1.5 secs ahead of a team.

That is what I thought. It seemed like the motor bikes in the back half of the TTT, might have been helping alleviate a cross wind. Mostly for one team. It just struck me as being wrong.

 

[Galic Ho]

Ah yes "individual performances are too ridiculous to give everyone a hall pass"
==
"you are desperate for the peloton to be doping like they were 5-10 years ago".

Another quality analysis from the PhD student with 10 years "experience" in the AIS and SIS.

Replete with personal attack.

Chapeau.



Oh the irony.

Hey cut Krebs some slack! It's uni break after all! What the hell does he have to do in his life on break? Oh that's right, claim others need a life!

He's just mad his buddies are getting picked on again. Harden up krebs. After all it's the Aussie thing to do right?

The Australian media gushes so much over every good performance it makes me nauseous...

Rupert Guiness is a hack. He likes his yearly trip to France. The same man who said last year he should have been more proactive in calling out Armstrong's camp...yeah back to his regular habits. No shock there. He has no backbone.