2013 Cleanest Peloton Ever

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Sep 29, 2012
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Spencer the Half Wit said:
All this week Boardman on the ITV highlights has been in the wind tunnel showing the benefits of various improvements in aerodynamics, including drafting, bikes and helmets. What he showed was the current design of helmets with the holes produces more drag than ones with no holes to the tune of about 6 watts. Skinsuits reduce drag even more. Whilst it is not much on its own, over a 3 week tour of over 3000km it will make a significant difference.

Just a heads up - they rarely wear skinsuits in road stages, and TT helmets are only legal in TTs.

This is the second time you've said a TT-specific aero advantage can be applied to the whole race. It can't. It only applies to the TT stages.

And aero advantages in road stages mean sweet FA compared to sitting on someone's wheel, which is pretty much the same laws of physics that it's always been.
 
Guess he means the stupid "aero" road helmets.

Is that 6 Watts riding on the front, or in the bunch? On what gradient?

So pretty useless for a GC guy, in the Giro Evans saw them more as a device protect one from the rain and cold. Plus, Watt saved today isn't one you can use tomorrow.
 
Jul 26, 2009
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D-Queued said:
Please also don't forget the downhill and tailwind part of Lemond's ride...

This was a circuit. I mean circus.

Dave.

I think that's a bit of a strong statement.

The world record for the team pursuit time is 3:51 - approximately 62.34 kph. The individual pursuit record over the same distance is 4:10 - approximately 57.37 kph.

Taking the ratio of these times might be a way to approximately model the ability of a team vs. an individual in a TT.

So, using that ratio, Lemond's 34mph would translate to 36.95 mph.

As another performance figure, let's also look at Chris Boardman's hour record at 56.375 km - this was the last record attempt in a position that may approximate a modern TT position - multiplying by the ratio of team pursuit vs. individual pursuit would yield a speed of 61.26 kph (38.29 mph) - and that was over an hour.

So neither of those speeds are directly comparable and obviously there's a lot of fudging going on to get my numbers - but I think it's still tough to argue that the times set in Stage 4 represent a "circus." Take the technology advances and the potential additional benefit of starting with 9 riders vs. 4 (for the team pursuit), and you could easily see the speeds being comparable.

To me that's what "cleaner" means - performances are without a doubt closer to what could be done without doping. Are they truly "clean"? Who knows - but at least they're getting more plausible.

Hopefully the relatively smaller benefit from what doping can still be done combined with improvements in detection will move the risk/reward ratio to a point where more riders will decide it's simply not worth it.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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You're making the assumption the team pursuit and individual pursuit and hour record were all done clean also.
 
Jul 26, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
You're making the assumption the team pursuit and individual pursuit and hour record were all done clean also.

Not necessarily: I'm using the team vs. individual pursuit numbers just to get an approximate idea of how much faster a team will go than an individual - I'd argue that the ratio is similar whether doped or not.

Boardman's effort after applying the adjustment was quite a bit in excess of the speed of the time trial and was twice as long, too, so there's quite a bit of wiggle room there. My best 30 minute power is approximately 5% better than my best hour, and Boardman's adjusted speed is another 4.6% better than OGE's TTT speed.

Like I said - it was a good time, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of plausibility.

I'm not saying that the performance is proof of a clean peloton, or even proof of a clean"er" peloton - but that doesn't mean that it's the opposite, either.

BTW: Another thought I've had: I'd take more riders accusing others of doping as evidence of a cleaner peloton. Even though it's exceedingly bad sportsmanship to do so, you'd think that there would be at least some riders who couldn't resist the temptation if they weren't deterred by omerta and to some degree the fear of being caught in their own hypocrisy.

Even though I find them despicable, Marcel Kittel's accusations of Sayar are in some ways a step in the right direction.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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ulrichw said:
Even though I find them despicable, Marcel Kittel's accusations of Sayar are in some ways a step in the right direction.

When the accused is above tier 10, I'll agree.
 
ulrichw said:
I think that's a bit of a strong statement.

The world record for the team pursuit time is 3:51 - approximately 62.34 kph. The individual pursuit record over the same distance is 4:10 - approximately 57.37 kph.

Taking the ratio of these times might be a way to approximately model the ability of a team vs. an individual in a TT.

So, using that ratio, Lemond's 34mph would translate to 36.95 mph.

As another performance figure, let's also look at Chris Boardman's hour record at 56.375 km - this was the last record attempt in a position that may approximate a modern TT position - multiplying by the ratio of team pursuit vs. individual pursuit would yield a speed of 61.26 kph (38.29 mph) - and that was over an hour.

So neither of those speeds are directly comparable and obviously there's a lot of fudging going on to get my numbers - but I think it's still tough to argue that the times set in Stage 4 represent a "circus." Take the technology advances and the potential additional benefit of starting with 9 riders vs. 4 (for the team pursuit), and you could easily see the speeds being comparable.

To me that's what "cleaner" means - performances are without a doubt closer to what could be done without doping. Are they truly "clean"? Who knows - but at least they're getting more plausible.

Hopefully the relatively smaller benefit from what doping can still be done combined with improvements in detection will move the risk/reward ratio to a point where more riders will decide it's simply not worth it.

Good grief. With enough approximation, I am sure you could construct and argument that they must be approaching light speed.

1. Boardman used the Obree Superman position

2. Equating a ratio (!) obtained on (an almost) perfectly smooth surface, over a distance that can be dominated by anaerobic and neuromuscular effort to one that is ~8 times as long and must - by the nature of its length - rely on considerable aerobic effort is less than reasonable

3. Please explain again how you decided that LeMond should be 3 mph faster now? What would have changed enough to go 10% faster? What would that require - at least 30% more power at that speed? 30% more power from a guy with the highest MVO2 ever? Is this what doping would do for him?

4. There wasn't anything close to an even rotation or workload sharing

That last point should be the first point. The second last the second most important.

One guy did most of the pulling, and did that while producing at least 30% more power than the guy with the highest MVO2 ever.

He wouldn't need Boardman's superman position. He is superman.

Dave.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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NB. At Australian Championships, in summer in Adelaide, the track gets superlatively speedy, and that is where Jack Bobridge set his WR of 410
A Tasmanian team pusuit that had an 18yo Gossie went about 3'59" in 2006. this would have been a time good enough for Olympic gold in Sydney against the Germans. actually, now i think, it would have got them silver. the Germans were under4. but not much under.

(I think. do your research and you can correct me if one wishes)

oh, if Bobridge goes 410 in Radelaide, then Taylor Phinney could go multiple seconds quicker imo. he went about 1'01" in the kilo as a 19yo going on 20. that is significantly faster than Chris Hoy went into his mid twenties. (I know hoy attempted a wr at altitude in either mexico or colombia in his mid-late twenties.)

dont see much diff in Cancellara and Taylor POhinney. if sparticus had the track souplesse, he would put out similar numbers i reckon.
 
D-Queued said:
Good grief. With enough approximation, I am sure you could construct and argument that they must be approaching light speed.

1. Boardman used the Obree Superman position

2. Equating a ratio (!) obtained on (an almost) perfectly smooth surface, over a distance that can be dominated by anaerobic and neuromuscular effort to one that is ~8 times as long and must - by the nature of its length - rely on considerable aerobic effort is less than reasonable

3. Please explain again how you decided that LeMond should be 3 mph faster now? What would have changed enough to go 10% faster? What would that require - at least 30% more power at that speed? 30% more power from a guy with the highest MVO2 ever? Is this what doping would do for him?

4. There wasn't anything close to an even rotation or workload sharing

That last point should be the first point. The second last the second most important.

One guy did most of the pulling, and did that while producing at least 30% more power than the guy with the highest MVO2 ever.

He wouldn't need Boardman's superman position. He is superman.

Dave.

Do you have a breakdown of how much each rider contributed?
 
blackcat said:
NB. At Australian Championships, in summer in Adelaide, the track gets superlatively speedy, and that is where Jack Bobridge set his WR of 410
A Tasmanian team pusuit that had an 18yo Gossie went about 3'59" in 2006. this would have been a time good enough for Olympic gold in Sydney against the Germans. actually, now i think, it would have got them silver. the Germans were under4. but not much under.

(I think. do your research and you can correct me if one wishes)

oh, if Bobridge goes 410 in Radelaide, then Taylor Phinney could go multiple seconds quicker imo. he went about 1'01" in the kilo as a 19yo going on 20. that is significantly faster than Chris Hoy went into his mid twenties. (I know hoy attempted a wr at altitude in either mexico or colombia in his mid-late twenties.)

dont see much diff in Cancellara and Taylor POhinney. if sparticus had the track souplesse, he would put out similar numbers i reckon.

Bobridge did the record in Sydney, Olympic velodrome (same conditions though, massive heatwave IIRC). Adelaide was the year before, 4'14".
 
Sep 29, 2012
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blackcat said:
dont see much diff in Cancellara and Taylor POhinney. if sparticus had the track souplesse, he would put out similar numbers i reckon.

I found a spreadsheet somewhere and apparently Cancellara pedals quick when TTing - like 110+rpm, apparently. Would love to see him on the pursuit circuit. Put some of this "big engine" myth explaining GT performances by autobus card holders to rest.
 
Greipel could barely contain himself as he acknowledged the Cannondale 7 for pulling Sagan to the line yesterday. Called it an amazing performance as they buried 3 teams of sprinting domestiques for 100 + kms. It was all he could do to keep from rolling his eyes at the NCBSN reporter.
 
Von Mises said:
How do you know that he has highest MVO2 ever?

How do you know that he doesn't?

If that statement is an exageration, and Greg only had the 10th or 100th highest MVO2 ever measured, is the point diluted?

(According to this reference, Greg has the fifth highest MVO2 ever measured.)

I am sure that my 30% estimate of additional required power output is off, as well.

Can you provide us with a more precise estimate of how much more power is required to go from 34 to 37 mph?

Dave.
 
Jul 21, 2010
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Puckfiend said:
Greipel could barely contain himself as he acknowledged the Cannondale 7 for pulling Sagan to the line yesterday. Called it an amazing performance as they buried 3 teams of sprinting domestiques for 100 + kms. It was all he could do to keep from rolling his eyes at the NCBSN reporter.

Good for Griepel. What we saw yesterday was every bit as blatant as the Sky performances from last year. Do they truly expect us to believe that their squad is so superior to everyone else's that ALL their riders could legitimately stay to the end? Unreal and I hope more people call them out on it.
 
Puckfiend said:
Greipel could barely contain himself as he acknowledged the Cannondale 7 for pulling Sagan to the line yesterday. Called it an amazing performance as they buried 3 teams of sprinting domestiques for 100 + kms. It was all he could do to keep from rolling his eyes at the NCBSN reporter.

Were the chasers not slowed down because they could not risk dropping their sprinters?
 
Jul 21, 2010
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D-Queued said:
Except for Garmin, who are looking cleaner by each stage.

Dave.

Sad to say, Argos isn't looking overly dirty either, lol. Actually, most of the sprint trains, with the exception of Cannondale, have been showing appropriate signs of suffering. Not to say that the riders are 100% clean, but more believable than many.
 
Ripper said:
Do you have a breakdown of how much each rider contributed?

Hi Ripper,

Very sorry that I do not. I would love to have it. Someone has the info.

I think the race coverage observed it (but I didn't record it). We do have the qualitative from Matt White himself:

D-Queued said:

Dave.