2015 Giro d'Italia Stage 15: Marostica–Madonna di Campiglio

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Well he just said on Eurosport that he was beaten by Landa and he didn't give it away

But of course you are unbiased

I don't know if he could have beaten Landa, but I do know saying he gifted him the stage would have been absolutely classless.

Contador also said Tiralongo won in Macunagna because he was the strongest so....
Konig is such a bland character but I'm loving his comments towards Porte, seems like he was really a motivated and caring domestique: "Don't bother me with that guy, he was in the motor-home I haven't seen him"

Konig said that ??? really where is the link ??
Its bad enough without making stuff up

 

[trevim]

Re: Re:

Well he just said on Eurosport that he was beaten by Landa and he didn't give it away

But of course you are unbiased

I don't know if he could have beaten Landa, but I do know saying he gifted him the stage would have been absolutely classless.

Contador also said Tiralongo won in Macunagna because he was the strongest so....
Konig is such a bland character but I'm loving his comments towards Porte, seems like he was really a motivated and caring domestique: "Don't bother me with that guy, he was in the motor-home I haven't seen him"

Konig said that ??? really where is the link ??
Its bad enough without making stuff up

It may be a (very) free quote but I think it represents well what Konig meant

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Astana are as clueless about racing as Sky.
How many team mates does Contador have in this race? 14.

But at least Landa got a win.

And I hope Steven finds a way to the podium.

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

I am not sure why fanboys (and girls) here cannot accept that Contador wanted to win that stage today but couldn't beat Landa...He was stronger than Aru but not Landa

Complains about fans "know AC:s mind" - says himself "Contador wanted to win".

There was this point under 1 km to go when Trofimov just had gone, and after him Landa, when Alberto just payed no other attention then to Aru. A clear indication of that he wanted to win? I say not. He even cared so little that he placed himself after Aru so that he could outsprint the sardinian in the end.

I think Contador probably has this race won but I don't think he is as invincible as every fanboy wants him to be

The only important for you to know is that the lead has been extended. Not diminished. Extended.

Wouldn't it be amasing if its Astana who soften Contador up for Froome, i and not SKY as envisaged

Here comes the excuses. "I am no skybot but wouldnt it be amazing"? routine. Clearly, he doesnt take the bait.

By the way, what happened with Richie?

 

[IndianCyclist]

Ryder Hesjedal- Does he know what he wants- Stage wins or GC. He goes in breakaways to win stages and he also tries to gain GC time leaving little energy for later. Both isn't possible for him. JV should tell him to focus on stages only.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

To whoever thinks Contador was saving it, was playing around with Aru, didn't care about winning the stage, gifted it to Landa... ok being fanboys, but there is always a limit to decency. Simply hilarious.

It was quite clear that Contador was at his limit. If he had the legs to put some more seconds on Aru, he would definitely tried it. As he did once, but to realize that he couldn't make a real difference. There is nothing to save with 2k to go. If you have anything left, you just go for it. Especially if you see the your opponent is certainly not in his best form.

And criticizing Landa's attack shows total ignorance about cycling and racing.
Aru knew he couldn't attack Contandor, while Landa had the legs to win the stage, so he tried once knowing he had to drop Contador straight away or just stop (not to tow him away from Aru) and try again later. And it is exactly what he did.
Astana couldn't gain anything in GC, so they went for the stage.

If Bertie had gone full out in the last 2km, he would have put some distance into Aru, but not a lot and Landa would have stayed in his wheel giving him the prime spot for the sprint. Bertie slowed down and Trofimov attacked from behind. Shortly after that, Contador was clearly talking to Aru, so he definitely way off his limit. What he said we''ll never know, but it's clear that Bertie felt that he had Aru beaten today. Landa was a deserving winner.

Wow, even way off his limit. And still not able to put on a winning attack.
According to your opinion he didn't want to attack and gain seconds on Aru because Landa could use his wheel to win the sprint??????? And that makes sense to you? Above all knowing he wouldn't win the stage anyway, as it happened.

 

[honzzz]

Re: Re:

porte arrived

Inside the time limit?

Is it Monday already?

I think this might count as Porte's 'bad day', no?

Though, I must say, does feel a bit like kicking a man when he's down. Konig's comments were not exactly a ringing endorsement of his leader, were they? Seemed verging on the pissed off.

Yeh, what was with this 2 minute moan, affecting the podium?
Have I missed something?
He lost 40 secs waiting for team leader, no more.
And, typical Sky, looks like a diesel going uphill, no turbo included

He was talking about the crash two days ago, the one that happened 200m before the 3km safe zone. Konig lost about 2 minutes there.

 

[honzzz]

Re: Re:

I am sorry about the double-post. Why does it say I cannot delete a post with a response? There is no response.

 

[cellardoor]

What actually happened to Rogers? One minute he was at the front of affairs and then I think we had a commercial break and then we came back and they were descending and he was nowhere to be seen. Did he get held up in a crash or something?

 

[Jelantik]

Re: Re:

Am I the only one who thought Contador wanted the stage today but was not as strong as Landa .....Landa definitely strongest climber so in this race

Konig could have ridden for anyone but chose SKY and I think he will get his chance when he has proved it to David Brailsford ...

If he wanted the stage, he would have attacked.

Well he just said on Eurosport that he was beaten by Landa and he didn't give it away

But of course you are unbiased

Yeah, Contador always speaks the truth in interviews I don't know if he could have dropped Landa, however I do know he never seriously tried. He accelerated a few times, saw Landa wasn't going to drop, and then decided to chill with Aru

to be fair.. though.. first he was already isolated. Second, he responded to Landa then Aru, then Landa again. He can't do that all the way to the top, because it's going to tire him. So he probably has to choose. Landa or Aru. If he wanted the stage, he could just drop Landa, but Landa seems to match him stride to stride. (remind me of rujano in 2011 Giro). Maybe the gradient isn't tough enough, but today Landa seems to be the stronger climber.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Re: Re:

[quote="

By the way, what happened with Richie?[/quote]

He could not go for a swim to warm down and someone put beer back in his trailer.... so I suppose form is back to what it was last year

 

[HelloDolly]

No_Balls (how apt your name is)

Complains about fans "know AC:s mind" - says himself "Contador wanted to win".

Contador himself on TV said he wanted to win the stage

The only important for you to know is that the lead has been extended. Not diminished. Extended.

What is important for me to know I am sure you couldn't begin to encapsulate ....But in this instance we are talking about winning the stage today

Here comes the excuses. "I am no skybot but wouldnt it be amazing"? routine. Clearly, he doesn't take the bait.

So your message is agree with everything I see or I will insult you by calling you a SKY bot .. (such a derogatory term to use on cyclists btw) …which is obviously the worst of circumstances to find oneself in

By the way, what happened with Richie?

Thank you with this unrelated comment demonstrating my point admirably

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

Well it seems to me that you're the one who's not following cycling, at least not for long, or you simply don't understand it.
If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.
Contador went after Landa exactly because it was him, he decided to marked them both, because they're both threats in the GC, as you can see, one is 2nd the other is 4th
Contador did attacked, in case you didn't noticed, it was counter move to Landa's first attack, when he saw that Aru is dropped, and he eased off only when he saw he can't drop Landa, he didn't want to risk a counter move
Landa attack accomplished little in terms of GC, i agree, he should of attacked way earlier, but probably his team didn't let him. But he accomplished much in terms of self confidence, he knows now that he can fight with Contador in mountains, and if Martinelli is smart he will play on both cards, him and Aru, cause this is the only way they can hope to beat Contador. If they ride strictly for Aru, it's a game over
Landa is not a one-hit wonder, that's exactly why I think you don't following cycling much, he was always a talented climber, back in his Euskaltel days, he just hasn't proven himself in GT's till now.
And so what if everyone sees it, you think Contador didn't knew that. What if for example Contador goes, Aru can't follow, but Landa can, what would you do if you are Martinelli, what would you say? My guess is that you would say to Landa to pace Aru and minimize the damage, because Aru is freaking leader! The road decides who the leader is. What about Richie Porte, he's the leader in Sky, why didn't Konig paced him today? By your logic he should

The funny thing is that I don't disagree with some of the things that are being said, it's that you're talking as though I disagree. Huh?

First of all, if you were a genuine cycling fan, that there are multiple cases of domestiques being stronger than their leaders (Delgado/Indurain, LeMond/Hinault, Lance/Contador, Froome/Wiggins, et cetera) wouldn't come as a surprise. Or that changing leaders in mid-competition is BAAAAAAAD idea. Especially when one is a proven leader (Aru impressed many in last year's Vuelta, Landa hasn't done anything).

Now, if you think it would be a good idea to change the Italian leader of a team in an Italian cycling competition just because the domestique happened to go faster in ONE frigging climb (meanwhile he got eaten alive in the ITT the day before,) pardon me for being condescending, but you understand neither cycling nor real life. Sometimes rational human beings say really delusional things.

And do me a favor, next time watch your grammar and split up your paragraphs so that I understand your line of logic. You go from cycling to making tomato soup in a period and a comma.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.

Probably worth noting that Aru put 1:13 into Landa in the TT. Don't know if Landa was going full on in the TT, but still. Really hard to be switching leaders in the middle of a race. You have to pick your leader and support him unless there is a fairly dramatic difference. Tactics during the race will give domestiques more apparent advantage. There is also the pressure factor. How would Landa handle the media and race pressure as the leader? He might be great, he might not. There is no reason at this point to change the plan, that would just be dumb.

If Aru shows continued weakness, and Landa starts to look like he could actually win, then sure, go for the change. The latter has definitely NOT happened yet. Today they did pretty well, making Contador chase both guys. The problem is that he was chasing both guys because he wanted the win, not because he fears Landa who was 4:55 behind entering the stage today. How exactly is Landa going to get back 4:55 or wherever he sits today (a few seconds less, but I'm not looking it up).

Bailing on your chosen leader in the middle of a race is not something to be taken lightly. Internal team motivation, trust, focus and a host of other reasons make it something not to be done without a very, very strong reason.

Easy for fans just to point at who looks strongest on the day. Not easy or smart to make such a dramatic change to a team when the outcome is very much in doubt. Who is going to ride for a DS who makes such fickle decisions?

 

[JRanton]

Contador isn't actually that strong in this Giro. He will be destroyed in July.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

If Astana wants to win the race they must sacrifice one of the high GC riders or least be willing to put a head on the line. Dragging everybody up the mountain US postal style doesn't work against Contador.

 

[The_Cheech]

Re:

Contador isn't actually that strong in this Giro. He will be destroyed in July.

AND.

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

Wow, even way off his limit. And still not able to put on a winning attack.
According to your opinion he didn't want to attack and gain seconds on Aru because Landa could use his wheel to win the sprint??????? And that makes sense to you? Above all knowing he wouldn't win the stage anyway, as it happened.

When Landa attacked and Bertie countered, Contador was at his limit. If he had got rid of Landa, he would have continued the attack. Aru was struggling, but not seriously gapped. Maybe Bertie thought that continuing at that point required digging in too deep for "marginal gains", but anyway he slowed somewhat. Aru came back and everything slowed down, such much so that Trofimov could attack from behind.

With Trofimov riding away, Contador was clearly conversing with Aru. AT THAT MOMENT, he was clearly way off his limit. What exactly he said is unknown, but Bertie's goal is the double, not a particular stage win. Landa had shown his strength, so some sort of agreement could well have been put in place. Why the obvious conversation?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

My reading of the stage was that Contador
a) would have liked to win the stage,
b) realized that it would be very difficult given how well Landa was riding,
c) decided that he would have had to go very far into the red and potentially crack, so victory in the stage was far from assured,
d) checked Aru's temperature in a brief conversation,
e) decided that he was stronger than Aru but maybe not quite as strong as Landa,
f) knew that Landa wasn't a huge threat today, since Landa would be loath to drop his Italian teammate, Aru
f) given the situation, he would settle for gaining time on Aru and ignoring a few seconds lost to a rival that is almost 5 minutes down on GC.

So, I thought Landa was stronger today, but his time gain was inconsequential at this point.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Well it seems to me that you're the one who's not following cycling, at least not for long, or you simply don't understand it.
If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.
Contador went after Landa exactly because it was him, he decided to marked them both, because they're both threats in the GC, as you can see, one is 2nd the other is 4th
Contador did attacked, in case you didn't noticed, it was counter move to Landa's first attack, when he saw that Aru is dropped, and he eased off only when he saw he can't drop Landa, he didn't want to risk a counter move
Landa attack accomplished little in terms of GC, i agree, he should of attacked way earlier, but probably his team didn't let him. But he accomplished much in terms of self confidence, he knows now that he can fight with Contador in mountains, and if Martinelli is smart he will play on both cards, him and Aru, cause this is the only way they can hope to beat Contador. If they ride strictly for Aru, it's a game over
Landa is not a one-hit wonder, that's exactly why I think you don't following cycling much, he was always a talented climber, back in his Euskaltel days, he just hasn't proven himself in GT's till now.
And so what if everyone sees it, you think Contador didn't knew that. What if for example Contador goes, Aru can't follow, but Landa can, what would you do if you are Martinelli, what would you say? My guess is that you would say to Landa to pace Aru and minimize the damage, because Aru is freaking leader! The road decides who the leader is. What about Richie Porte, he's the leader in Sky, why didn't Konig paced him today? By your logic he should

The funny thing is that I don't disagree with some of the things that are being said, it's that you're talking as though I disagree. Huh?

First of all, if you were a genuine cycling fan, that there are multiple cases of domestiques being stronger than their leaders (Delgado/Indurain, LeMond/Hinault, Lance/Contador, Froome/Wiggins, et cetera) wouldn't come as a surprise. Or that changing leaders in mid-competition is BAAAAAAAD idea. Especially when one is a proven leader (Aru impressed many in last year's Vuelta, Landa hasn't done anything).

Now, if you think it would be a good idea to change the Italian leader of a team in an Italian cycling competition just because the domestique happened to go faster in ONE frigging climb (meanwhile he got eaten alive in the ITT the day before,) pardon me for being condescending, but you understand neither cycling nor real life. Sometimes rational human beings say really delusional things.

And do me a favor, next time watch your grammar and split up your paragraphs so that I understand your line of logic. You go from cycling to making tomato soup in a period and a comma.

You questioned Landa's attack today, said he exposed his leader, well I disagree. Landa did the right thing, although he should of tried earlier. The idea was good, multiple attacks on Contador. Landa is by no means guilty or stupid as you said because his leader couldn't follow.

And no, I don't think they should change the leader. I think they should try with Landa with free role, trying from far out, although now is maybe too late, Contador now knows he's stronger than his leader.

And one more thing, you mentioned Lance/Contador example in 2009. Tell me who ended higher in GC, leader or domestique?

 

[Aguirre]

Re:

My reading of the stage was that Contador
a) would have liked to win the stage,
b) realized that it would be very difficult given how well Landa was riding,
c) decided that he would have had to go very far into the red and potentially crack, so victory in the stage was far from assured,
d) checked Aru's temperature in a brief conversation,
e) decided that he was stronger than Aru but maybe not quite as strong as Landa,
f) knew that Landa wasn't a huge threat today, since Landa would be loath to drop his Italian teammate, Aru
f) given the situation, he would settle for gaining time on Aru and ignoring a few seconds lost to a rival that is almost 5 minutes down on GC.

So, I thought Landa was stronger today, but his time gain was inconsequential at this point.

Yes, thats it. YOU put it perfectly

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

If the leader is weaker than top domestique, well than you have the wrong leader, which will be a case with Aru who is weaker than Landa especially on the climbs and could easily finish behind him in the GC. Leadership isn't eternal, you could change it during the race, you know.

Probably worth noting that Aru put 1:13 into Landa in the TT. Don't know if Landa was going full on in the TT, but still. Really hard to be switching leaders in the middle of a race. You have to pick your leader and support him unless there is a fairly dramatic difference. Tactics during the race will give domestiques more apparent advantage. There is also the pressure factor. How would Landa handle the media and race pressure as the leader? He might be great, he might not. There is no reason at this point to change the plan, that would just be dumb.

If Aru shows continued weakness, and Landa starts to look like he could actually win, then sure, go for the change. The latter has definitely NOT happened yet. Today they did pretty well, making Contador chase both guys. The problem is that he was chasing both guys because he wanted the win, not because he fears Landa who was 4:55 behind entering the stage today. How exactly is Landa going to get back 4:55 or wherever he sits today (a few seconds less, but I'm not looking it up).

Bailing on your chosen leader in the middle of a race is not something to be taken lightly. Internal team motivation, trust, focus and a host of other reasons make it something not to be done without a very, very strong reason.

Easy for fans just to point at who looks strongest on the day. Not easy or smart to make such a dramatic change to a team when the outcome is very much in doubt. Who is going to ride for a DS who makes such fickle decisions?

I don't think they should change leader, that was response to Cheech. Althoug I do think that they should try with at least some kind of free role for Landa, cause he apparently seems stronger of the two, and he isn't that far back in the GC

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

No_Balls (how apt your name is)

Thanks. Im very proud of it. Its a mockery of uniballer.

Contador himself on TV said he wanted to win the stage

Do not come to me about what Alberto said or didnt say. My record of calling out his bs is second to none. Of course he said he wanted to win but with Alberto its always his action (or lack thereof) who defines him. The reward of dropping a strong Landa was clearly not worth the effort why he focused at his main threat (Aru) first. A *** could see this.

What is important for me to know I am sure you couldn't begin to encapsulate ....But in this instance we are talking about winning the stage today

Yes. And i call out your wishful thinking that his double is in jeopardy because he didnt tried to drop Landa today but instead focused on the closest competitor. With you dreamers, one have to be brutal and frank because one knows which narrative you are trying to create.

So your message is agree with everything I see or I will insult you by calling you a SKY bot .. (such a derogatory term to use on cyclists btw) …which is obviously the worst of circumstances to find oneself in

I had hoped we could have solved this peacefully but clearly you see something that isnt really there and whats worse is that you try to build this as a hope for July.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

Re:

My reading of the stage was that Contador
a) would have liked to win the stage,
b) realized that it would be very difficult given how well Landa was riding,
c) decided that he would have had to go very far into the red and potentially crack, so victory in the stage was far from assured,
d) checked Aru's temperature in a brief conversation,
e) decided that he was stronger than Aru but maybe not quite as strong as Landa,
f) knew that Landa wasn't a huge threat today, since Landa would be loath to drop his Italian teammate, Aru
f) given the situation, he would settle for gaining time on Aru and ignoring a few seconds lost to a rival that is almost 5 minutes down on GC.

So, I thought Landa was stronger today, but his time gain was inconsequential at this point.

makes me wonder if contador can take a stage victory in this giro, given the current dynamics.

 

[Tank Engine]

Re:

My reading of the stage was that Contador
a) would have liked to win the stage,
b) realized that it would be very difficult given how well Landa was riding,
c) decided that he would have had to go very far into the red and potentially crack, so victory in the stage was far from assured,
d) checked Aru's temperature in a brief conversation,
e) decided that he was stronger than Aru but maybe not quite as strong as Landa,
f) knew that Landa wasn't a huge threat today, since Landa would be loath to drop his Italian teammate, Aru
f) given the situation, he would settle for gaining time on Aru and ignoring a few seconds lost to a rival that is almost 5 minutes down on GC.

So, I thought Landa was stronger today, but his time gain was inconsequential at this point.

Very reasonable. My take was that Landa was as strong as Contador, but Bertie was more afraid of going into the red and less hungry for a stage win.