2015 Vuelta stage 15: Comillas > Sotres/Cabrales 175.8km

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

This was quite possibly the worst "mountain" stage I remember. I hope Dumoulin still manages to win this.

Embarassing indeed, but as is often the case, the lack of a dominant rider 'saves' this Vuelta and people will call it a good GT.

hrotha has clearly forgotten the 2012 Giro. Every mountain stage was like this.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

This was quite possibly the worst "mountain" stage I remember. I hope Dumoulin still manages to win this.

Embarassing indeed, but as is often the case, the lack of a dominant rider 'saves' this Vuelta and people will call it a good GT.

hrotha has clearly forgotten the 2012 Giro. Every mountain stage was like this.

I have not. As bad as that Giro was, that didn't feature 30 riders making it together to the last 5 km and beyond, and no one attacking (Quintana doesn't count) before the last km. Usually, what we saw in that Giro was a smaller group (if still embarrassingly large) and attacks on the last 2 km.

 

[Bushman]

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

This was quite possibly the worst "mountain" stage I remember. I hope Dumoulin still manages to win this.

Well, to be fair, you say this every year.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

Lol. Ramirez wins combativity prize. How come?

No podium for Zubeldia.

... and that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you get the officials' "Ninja of the Vuelta" title. Respect!

 

[roundabout]

Had Movistar not chased for no apparent reason, the legend would have been over once and for all.

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

What conclusion? Majka has shown to be the better tt'er of those three riders (in mostly flat tt's) but he won't put minutes into Purito and Aru.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

What conclusion? Majka has shown to be the better tt'er of those three riders (in mostly flat tt's) but he won't put minutes into Purito and Aru.

When has Majka shown this? Which performances from Majka in flat TT's are you referring to?

(I'm not disagreeing with you or looking for an argument here btw, I've just seen this said a few times and genuinely can't remember Majka ever putting in a decent perfomance on a flat TT. Tbh, I can barely remember him doing any outside a couple of average showings in Poland)

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Re: Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

What conclusion? Majka has shown to be the better tt'er of those three riders (in mostly flat tt's) but he won't put minutes into Purito and Aru.

The conclusion that they'll be about equal. Because surely you'll have based your opiniom on prior results, which you say you do too. I just don't understand, how based on those, you don't see Purito massivly inferior to Majka at least. Did I miss something? And even in a rather hilly TT Majka put more than a minute into Aru i last years Giro (The one Uran won). I am not saying hell put minutes into both of them. But if Purito doesn't loose a minute or two to Majka that would be sensational. All three within 30 seconds, what would you base that on?

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

What conclusion? Majka has shown to be the better tt'er of those three riders (in mostly flat tt's) but he won't put minutes into Purito and Aru.

When has Majka shown this? Which performances from Majka in flat TT's are you referring to?

(I'm not disagreeing with you or looking for an argument here btw, I've just seen this said a few times and genuinely can't remember Majka ever putting in a decent perfomance on a flat TT. Tbh, I can barely remember him doing any outside a couple of average showings in Poland)

Tour de Suisse this year. Not an entirely flat tt but the top 10 is mostly made up of tt specialists and the average speed for the winner (Dumoulin) was 47 km/h.
Tour de Pologne 2014. Not terrific but definately better than what I would expect from Purito or Aru.
Long tt in Giro 2013. A very, very tough tt so not really comparable but Majka beats almost every climber contending for gc by quite a margin.

I think there is definitely strong evidence that Majka is a better tt'er than Aru and Purito in flattish tt's.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Pathetic last climb. Not just the way it was ridden, but the way the climb was shaped: you needed to be so much better than the rest when attacking to make up for the flattish middle section (Quintana tried, but it was pretty hopeless since he isnt near TdF-levels). Therefore, pretty naturally, they waited for the last 3 kilometers. I could have pretty much told this was what was going to happen from the look of the climb.

Which makes me think of all the race routes discussion and the term overused we need to find some new climbs who are better: The climb today was 1 kilometer shorter than the Alp with the exact same percentage. The difference just being that the Alp is raced 100% from the bottom every god damn time which ALWAYS make it a great climb. No hiding. Compare that to today, a typical Vuelta-climb, with shifting gradients which pretty much scared people away from attacking because 1) flattish plateau of not just one, but 4-5 kilometers(?) and 2) extremely difficult last kilometers. I prefer Alpe d' Huez anyday over *** like this.

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

What conclusion? Majka has shown to be the better tt'er of those three riders (in mostly flat tt's) but he won't put minutes into Purito and Aru.

The conclusion that they'll be about equal. Because surely you'll have based your opiniom on prior results, which you say you do too. I just don't understand, how based on those, you don't see Purito massivly inferior to Majka at least. Did I miss something? And even in a rather hilly TT Majka put more than a minute into Aru i last years Giro (The one Uran won). I am not saying hell put minutes into both of them. But if Purito doesn't loose a minute or two to Majka that would be sensational. All three within 30 seconds, what would you base that on?

Maybe 30 seconds is a bit too little considering it's 40 k. I have a feeling that Purito will do quite well but that is more of a gut feeling than based on data. Aru has looked the strongest so far even if he couldnt follow Purito today and I think he will be just a little bit fresher when the tt comes.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think Purito, Aru and Majka will be about equal in the tt, seperated by no more than 30 seconds. Majka will likely go a little faster than the others but not significantly.

How do you come to this conclusion? The TT is basically flat!

What conclusion? Majka has shown to be the better tt'er of those three riders (in mostly flat tt's) but he won't put minutes into Purito and Aru.

When has Majka shown this? Which performances from Majka in flat TT's are you referring to?

(I'm not disagreeing with you or looking for an argument here btw, I've just seen this said a few times and genuinely can't remember Majka ever putting in a decent perfomance on a flat TT. Tbh, I can barely remember him doing any outside a couple of average showings in Poland)

Tour de Suisse this year. Not an entirely flat tt but the top 10 is mostly made up of tt specialists and the average speed for the winner (Dumoulin) was 47 km/h.
Tour de Pologne 2014. Not terrific but definately better than what I would expect from Purito or Aru.
Long tt in Giro 2013. A very, very tough tt so not really comparable but Majka beats almost every climber contending for gc by quite a margin.

I think there is definitely strong evidence that Majka is a better tt'er than Aru and Purito in flattish tt's.

The only one of those three that is anywhere near as flat as the one in Burgos is the Pologne one, where he got beaten by the Izagirre brothers. I think the others were most definitely hilly. The Swiss one was basically up or down all the way, so pedalling hard in an aero position wasn't really a factor - same in the Giro one.

Time trial performances in same race are as follows:

Dauphine 2011: Majka 86 v Purito 59
Tirreno Adriatico 2012: Majka 86 v Purito 59
Vueta 2011: Majka 64 v Purito 70
Vuelta 2012: Majka 84 v Purito 7
Vuelta 2013: Majka 16 v Purito 21
Tour de France 2014: Majka 58 v Purito 143
Tour de France 2015: Majka 111 v Purito 125
Pais Vasco 2015: Majka 49 v Purito 2

Obviously most of these are hilly/short or where one rider is not fully motivated, but it suggests there is not very much at all between them. I certainly haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that Majka is better than Purito (let alone Aru) in a flat time trial, where aerodynamics and ability to put out power in a sub-optimal position is the key performane indicator.

 

[Czapiewski]

It is hard to compare, especially 2011-2012 when Majka was 22/23. In fact, Majka used to be weak at TT, but there was a large improvement in flat TT: Giro 2014, TdP 2014, TdS 2015, TdR 2015 - he showed that he is not so far away from the best in this area. I do not remember such flat TT result from Rodriguez.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

It is hard to compare, especially 2011-2012 when Majka was 22/23. In fact, Majka used to be weak at TT, but there was a large improvement in flat TT: Giro 2014, TdP 2014, TdS 2015, TdR 2015 - he showed that he is not so far away from the best in this area. I do not remember such flat TT result from Rodriguez.

None of those were flat though, apart from TdP 2014; where his result was pretty average given the field he was up against. There is a huge difference in TT technique on a hilly time trial which is mostly climbing / descending (even if the gradients are quite gentle) and one which is mostly flat or with very gentle gradients (1-2%) like this one in the vuelta. For the flat one power to weight isn't a factor and aerodynamics become all important. We just don't know how aero Majka can get without compromising his power.

I'm not saying Majka won't do far better than Rodriguez, but there's just no evidence to suggest he will on a flat TT imo.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

Pathetic last climb. Not just the way it was ridden, but the way the climb was shaped: you needed to be so much better than the rest when attacking to make up for the flattish middle section (Quintana tried, but it was pretty hopeless since he isnt near TdF-levels). Therefore, pretty naturally, they waited for the last 3 kilometers. I could have pretty much told this was what was going to happen from the look of the climb.

Which makes me think of all the race routes discussion and the term overused we need to find some new climbs who are better: The climb today was 1 kilometer shorter than the Alp with the exact same percentage. The difference just being that the Alp is raced 100% from the bottom every god damn time which ALWAYS make it a great climb. No hiding. Compare that to today, a typical Vuelta-climb, with shifting gradients which pretty much scared people away from attacking because 1) flattish plateau of not just one, but 4-5 kilometers(?) and 2) extremely difficult last kilometers. I prefer Alpe d' Huez anyday over **** like this.

I know what your saying, but another problem is that there are quite a few riders very close to eachothers level. This makes all of them afraid to attack too early and blow up.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Thats true, I just still feel that the climb itself sucks due to where it's step and 'flat'.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No way. Jitu is a genuinely great climb. You would see far less great racing on Alpe d'Huez if it were only in one-climb stages, no Lautaret, Galibier, Glandon or Croix-de-Fer. The steepest stuff at the top is not THAT much steeper than the steepest stuff at the bottom. This ain't Cuitu Negru. The problem is that it's hard to put a serious climbing stage before it, in fact today's stage was actually one of the best lead-ins they could do to it, because it rises almost out of the sea after some fairly imperceptible foothills. If riders were tired and the bunch was down to 40 men at the base, then hitting the front with three men like Astana or Movistar today and drilling it could have been really great. But they weren't, and so it wasn't. The pace needed to be absolutely infernal, like Volta a Portugal pace, on the bottom slopes, to pull it apart, so then the shallower section would be a chase rather than a ceasefire.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

No way. Jitu is a genuinely great climb. You would see far less great racing on Alpe d'Huez if it were only in one-climb stages, no Lautaret, Galibier, Glandon or Croix-de-Fer. The steepest stuff at the top is not THAT much steeper than the steepest stuff at the bottom. This ain't Cuitu Negru. The problem is that it's hard to put a serious climbing stage before it, in fact today's stage was actually one of the best lead-ins they could do to it, because it rises almost out of the sea after some fairly imperceptible foothills. If riders were tired and the bunch was down to 40 men at the base, then hitting the front with three men like Astana or Movistar today and drilling it could have been really great. But they weren't, and so it wasn't. The pace needed to be absolutely infernal, like Volta a Portugal pace, on the bottom slopes, to pull it apart, so then the shallower section would be a chase rather than a ceasefire.

I dont agree on the Alpe d' Huez-stuff. No matter how easy you make the stage, people will be sprinting up the first couple of kilometres and as usual create big gaps at the bottom. Apparantly, that's just how that climb is ridden compared to pretty much all other climbs.

Maybe Im being too harsh, it COULD make for some great racing if Movistar actually had a team which could climb or LLS wanted to let Rosa blow it apart on the earlier sections, but all of that didnt happen and so they waited which was the most realistic scenario coming into the climb. My point being, for the climb to be great there needs to be extremely strong and confident riders who badly needs time with a team to blow it up the first 2 kilometres or so. And more often that not, that doesnt really happen.

Edit: And maybe it didnt help to slot it in right before Alba? I dno. I just didnt like the climbs composition. It could create carnage, but most times, it would come down to the last 2-3 kilometers in this day and age.

 

[jaylew]

Good win for Purito. I'd love to see him finallly get a GT win. I have my doubts but I hope he can somehow hold off Aru and Majka, who I think are the biggest threats. Dumo's putting up a hell of a fight, though.

Seems like 5-6 different guys have looked like the strongest on the climbs in this Vuelta. I love that.

 

[dusty red roads]

Zubeldia has totally killed his ninja status with that solo run - he had at least 2 articles in English dedicated to him, including quotes. (check cyclingquotes and cyclingnews main page).
Then again, once a master always a master... perhaps he just wanted something different for a change and has now reverted back to his masterly ways.

 

[armchairclimber]

Absolutely stunning landscape in the Picos there though. And Cabrales is the King of Cheeses. I think I preferred that climb to Lagos de Cobadonga.

 

[Carols]

A stage to remember. Zubeldia is real, not a figment of the imagination as suspected since 2003 and Purito stakes a claim to this race. Good day .

 

[Bushman]

Re: Re:

The only one of those three that is anywhere near as flat as the one in Burgos is the Pologne one, where he got beaten by the Izagirre brothers. I think the others were most definitely hilly. The Swiss one was basically up or down all the way, so pedalling hard in an aero position wasn't really a factor - same in the Giro one.

Time trial performances in same race are as follows:

Dauphine 2011: Majka 86 v Purito 59
Tirreno Adriatico 2012: Majka 86 v Purito 59
Vueta 2011: Majka 64 v Purito 70
Vuelta 2012: Majka 84 v Purito 7
Vuelta 2013: Majka 16 v Purito 21
Tour de France 2014: Majka 58 v Purito 143
Tour de France 2015: Majka 111 v Purito 125
Pais Vasco 2015: Majka 49 v Purito 2

Obviously most of these are hilly/short or where one rider is not fully motivated, but it suggests there is not very much at all between them. I certainly haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that Majka is better than Purito (let alone Aru) in a flat time trial, where aerodynamics and ability to put out power in a sub-optimal position is the key performane indicator.

First of all, including results from 2011 and 2012 where Majka was a neopro and didn't have the chance to ride for himself, whereas Purito was on top of his career, is quite silly tbh.

Secondly, dismissing Majka's 2014 Tour de Pologne tt because he was beaten by Ion and Gorka Izaguirre is a bit weird considering they are both quite capable tt'ers, especially Ion. Could you imagine Purito placing 13th in that tt?

You might be right that there is not a lot of evidence suggesting Majka is better on a 38.7 k, almost pancake flat tt but there is definitely evidence that Majka is a better tt'er in general than both Purito and Aru and unless Aru has suddenly improved his tt quite a bit I'm sure that Majka will beat both of them in the tt. Not by minutes but he will definitely be faster.